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Well, i didnt have Sulfur when they resolved Souls. At one point my opp had 2 SFM and I had 2 Elementals on my hand, but one got discarded by IoK :(Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I still think theyre a solid sideboard choice against Esper and GW depending on the build.
I also beat GW quite constantly. And usually it's not fast. I take the card advantage rout, and eventually get enough guys on the table, that 1 Gempalm, 1 Sting, 1 Tarfire, make me able to swing for the win on 2 turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
SB'ded games it's easier to go faster with Knesis, but still, I prefer to go for the long game. Just play fast enough so it doesn't end in a draw.
But I guess both strategies are pretty valid.
Proposed decklist for the Cavern of Souls era.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War-Marshall
1 Tuktuk Scrapper / Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarfire
My reasoning for this list:
First and foremost, a T1 Lackey will resolve more often. When you have a T1 Lackey, you are free to use your lands for things other than casting spells. Hence, 4 Rishadan Port. Cavern mana can be used to activate Port, and Cavern>Lackey>Port is a line of play that will be very difficult to answer for UW Stoneblade and RUG Tempo decks. They generally maindeck only 4-8 pieces of spot removal, so your Lackey has a good chance of connecting T2.
Cavern of Souls will be great in Goblin builds because it will force opposing decks to diversify their responses to our cards. They will no longer be able to rely on a mixture of spot removal and counterspells to control our board. This means they will need to rely more heavily on board-sweeping effects (Wrath of God, Firespout) or permanents that control combat (Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, Propoganda). Because Sweepers are more mana-intensive, opposing decks will be more vulnerable to mana-disruption. Once again, Rishadan Port shines in this role.
Goblin Warchief should return as the Lord of choice, for several reasons. First, he makes your gobbos less expensive to hardcast. Hardcasting Matrons and Ringleaders is now a more attractive option thanks to Cavern. Since Cavern will make opposing decks rely further on mass removal you will find yourself in situations where your board gets wiped. Warchief makes recovering from a wiped board much faster and more explosive than Chieftain. You can land a Warchief the turn after a Wrath, then play Matron>Piledriver the next turn and swing in for 8.
That brings us to another blast from the past: Goblin Piledriver. I haven't played with a full playset of these guys for months, and I miss them. Since Cavern will allow us to get more Gobbos onto the battlefield, Piledriver will allow us to capitalize on those higher numbers. If you're worried that he'll just eat spot removal remember that with counterspells playing a much smaller role there will be less spot removal to go around. In other words, by the time Piledriver hits play your opponent already had to Swords/Bolt the Lackey.
Speaking of old cards, Gempalm Incinerator probably aught to be a 4-of again. I'm not sure it was ever a bad idea to run a playset of these guys. Of the 5 goblin decks that have made top-16 at SCG 5Ks these past 2 months 4 of them have played 3 or 4 Gempalms. It's a good card, and will receive the same bump in usefulness that Piledriver will. (And aside: Remember how your opponents hate that they can't counter Gempalm? Well Caverns will make them feel that way about every Goblin).
Aside from those changes the rest of the build should remind you of decks built with the intention of beating other creature-based decks. Plenty of burn that's either free or inexpensive (Pyrokinesis, Tarfire) and some removal in a Goblin body (Gempalm, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk). Mogg War-Marshalls are there to clog the board and boost Gempalm and Piledriver.
Of course there is plenty of wiggle-room, and this build is a little more "classic" than is probably optimal. I also don't know whether a Black or Green splash would be a good idea. The manabase could easily be changed to look like the following:
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mountain
4 Dual Lands
4 Fetchlands
This would easily open the deck to playing Weirding (an excellent choice against Thrun which also makes Perish available against Maverick) and allow Tin-Street Hooligan, Wort, Earwig Squad, or whatever your pet goblin is to be played.
Also, I do not think the Chieftain/Winstigator build should be tossed out. It seems very viable still and variety makes the deck more difficult to play correctly against. I’m waiting to see the all-goblins build that plays 4 Winstigators over Vial, and maybe a Goblin Wizard or two (yes, I know he sucks, but there might be times when he doesn’t).
I’m looking forward to writing my first tournament report once I get my preordered playset of Caverns. I’ll let you all know how it goes and hope to hear of some playtesting and lists in the very near future.
That sounds good in theory, the problem for me is what to take out in order to fit in those removals. I never managed to achieve a good balance with that much removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Mono Red MBQuote:
Originally Posted by wert
4x Vial
4 x Lackey
4 x tarfire
3 x MWM
2 x Piledriver
2 x Warren Instigator
2 x Stingscourger
4 x Gempalm Incinerator
4 x Goblin Matron
4 x Goblin Chieftain
1 x Sharpshooter ( could be Tuk Tuk )
4 x Ringleader
2 x Siege Gang
4 x wasteland
16 x mountain
SB
3 x Pyrokenisis
4 x chalice of void
4 x leyline of void
4 x mindbreak trap
Of course SB always open up to discussion but anti storm could go with thorns, find a way for REB for example
20 lands is working in this build, only ringleaders and SGC above 3cc. SB is basically 0cc.
So there you go! Thinking of maybe -1 sharpshooter and -1 chieftain and +2 warchief but always tinkering but the removal package works well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wertThat sounds good in theory, the problem for me is what to take out in order to fit in those removals. I never managed to achieve a good balance with that much removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Mostly, I agree with jrw1985.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I was thinking:
-1 Rishadan Port
-2 Mogg War Marshall
+1 Mountain
w/ Scrapper, Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector.
Regardless, MB a couple Pyrokinesis in a "normal" meta. Versus agro they often win the game, and versus combo/control things like Tarfire and Stingscourger aren't going to boost the match up anyway.
I would leave MWM and try Something similar to Jim Davis' list (the 'wmw, warchief,, prospector' interaction):Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktu Srapper
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Tarfire
4 Aether Vial
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Mountain
Loved to see him play on he Survival era. He was good.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
Anyone know what's he's up too?
last time i saw him in mental mistep era top'ing scg open with the same list that also gave me some top8'sQuote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...6&iddeck=45263
yeah. last champ I heard him play too.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
Tuff times agains Zoo there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by liamb
With Cavern of Souls, wouldn't it be advantageous to run Hooligans over Scrappers?
The advatage of TSH is that it's a 2 drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The advantage of Tuktuk is that it can be Vialed in at instant speed, can be cast under a Warchief, and only requires 1 colord mana source to cast. Tuktuk can also be copied with Kiki-Jiki and still use it's enter-play ability.
The disadvantage of Hooligan is the it requires 2 colord mana sources to cast, can't be cheated in, can't be vialed in at instant speed, and gets turned off under Warchief.
The disadvantage of TukTuk is that it costs 4 mana.
Tuktuk's ability is clearly better across the board, but Hooligan is just WAYYYY more efficient. Maybe play 1 MD and 1 SB? Or a 1/1 split MD if you see a lot of equipment in your meta. I honestly don't know what the right answer is.
I just made the same experiences and really got to love vialing a matron into play and hardcast TSH right away, without waiting a round to vial Tuktuk. Time is quite important vs. Jitte, Batterscull and not to forget Vendillion Clique, 'cause Blade players my steal the card you choose to tutor for.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
What do you mean with 1MD and 1SB? Which one is where? I usually see Tuktuk main and STH in the board, while with a 2/1 I might be glad to cast him just for the body sometimes?Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
So playing TSH as a 2-off?...? opions?
I am currently running 1 tuk tuk main & 1 tuk tuk sideboard, having 1 main deck anti artifact answer is just really helpful against stoneforge mystic's that I seem to run into at least once every event, as far as tin street goes, I run mono red, but with the new land, I could actually that land for "green" and get it into play with the artifact destroy effect. In either case, it takes them a couple turns to get out a stoneforge, use it, then get a batterskull or jitte into play, and I usually have to matron for the 1 of artifact answer anyhow, so the fact that the "answer" being tuk tuk scrapper, costs 4, is not that big of a deal when they put the artifact into play and im going to next turn destroy it anyway, so at most i have to play around it for 1 turn, they gain 4 life w/ batterskull, or possibly get a jitte with 2 counters on it, before it gets destroyed. That is usually vialing it into play too so its uncounterable, it doesn't include the new land from Avacayn restored coming out. >^,^<
Now I see what you're saying with Scrapper. It also deals damage if you need that little reach, especially with Kiki-JikiQuote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Don't forget Engineered Plague here - if Cavern has a positive effect on goblins and/or elves you can bet we'll start to see them again. Also, EPlague naming Spirit isn't the absolute worst. If that happens, Chieftain starts to look better again.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I absolutely loathe Tuktuk Scrapper, I mean even when my opponent has landed a Jitte or a Batterskull I would rather have a Siege Gang into play. I run 0 Tuktuks or TSHs in my 75. With SGC out, you can gain crazy amounts of tempo by just burning every guy they try to equip the Jitte to, you can block sac, kill a dork against BSkull or double burn the germ. I have been using the sac Goblin approach for quite some time now and have been pleased with it. I think your primary goal against SFM decks should be to just get a Siege Gang Commander into play and then slowly grind them down. I play a fuckton of removal in 3 Fanatic, 4 Gempalm and 4 Bolts to get Instigator to hit and buy the time to get that SGC into play. I also play 3 SGC to ensure I actually draw them. I must admit, while this approach is the best thing I have come up with yet, it can still lose to EsperBlade so I think Cavern is definitely going to help inching out the win against them. Furthermore, I absolutely agree with what Avatara said about us needing to have some walkover matchups; this used to be CounterTop and Merfolk but recently every matchup requires some work, I think Caverns is going to give us that lost advantage back again.
TLDR; block, sac approach >>>>> Tuktuk/TSH
Also: with Chieftains you still die to Engineered Plague, don't think for a second that Chieftain will protect you against Plague because you still die to double Plague. And I have never seen a Plague not accompanied by a huge amount of removal so after getting down a Plague your opponent can simply pour all of his resources into killing Chieftain. There are plenty of reasons to run Chieftain, but I think Engineered Plague is not a very convincing one.
Cedric Philip's take on Cavern of Souls:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s..._The_Crop.html
"
2.) "Goblins is going to dominate Legacy now!" Anyone who says this doesn't have a fundamental understanding of how Goblins works in Legacy. As someone who has played Goblins in every Legacy tournament that I have entered for the past 1.5 years, let me explain:
Cavern of Souls does make Goblin Lackey uncounterable, but the problem wasn't that Goblin Lackey could be countered by Force of Will or Daze. The problem was that Goblin Lackey is a 1/1 that has to deal a point of damage in order for it to be relevant. Think of how difficult that is to do in Legacy.
If Goblins in on the play, here's what the opponent can do to stop a Goblin Lackey:
- Swords to Plowshares
- Path to Exile
- Lightning Bolt
- Chain Lightning
- Delver of Secrets
- Nimble Mongoose
- Mother of Runes
- Stifle
- Darkblast
- Ghastly Demise
- Innocent Blood
- Forked Bolt
- Maze of Ith
- Force of Will
If Goblins is on the draw, here's what the opponent can do to stop a Goblin Lackey besides everything else listed above:
- Tarmogoyf
- Dark Confidant
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Scavenging Ooze
- Just about any other two-mana creature
- Brainstorm for an answer
- Ponder for an answer
- Daze it
Of all of these situations listed above, only two of them are counterspells.
The ability to have your Goblins uncounterable via Cavern of Souls is nice to have available, but Goblins always preyed on decks that relied on countermagic (example: Counterbalance decks). The decks that Goblins has never wanted to play against were decks that had access to a lot of spot removal (example: decks with a lot of Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exiles and Snapcaster Mages) because Goblins is a deck of critical mass. The entire deck relies on every other card in the deck to work:
Gempalm Incinerator relies on other Goblins being in play.
Goblin Warchief makes your Goblins cost less and gives them haste.
Goblin Ringleader finds other Goblins.
Goblin Matron finds other Goblins.
Goblin Piledriver receives his bonus from other Goblins attacking.
Siege-Gang Commander requires other Goblins to be effective
If anything, Cavern of Souls is a trap for Goblins because it makes them more open to losses via Wasteland / Price of Progress. One advantage Goblins has over a lot of other aggressive decks in Legacy is that it gets to play a relevant amount of basic lands. By buying into the Cavern of Souls hype, a Goblins player is taking away one of their advantages for little to no gain.
I believe that Cavern of Souls is going to be a very good card for many years to come. I also knew that an overreaction to the card was going to occur. When a card this different comes around, it's only natural for that reaction to take place. What people need to recognize is that counterspells outside of Mana Leak aren't seeing that much play, so to say that Cavern of Souls solves a huge problem is a lack of understanding of what you're actually losing to in the games that you're playing.
I think the place that Cavern of Souls really shines is how it gives a deck like Zombie Pod in Standard a much better mana base. It now makes it reasonable to cast Diregraf Captain on turn 3 instead of hoping things work out perfectly with just eight blue mana sources.
It makes a deck like Elementals in Modern a lot more attractive because now you have access to so many lands that tap for five colors (Primal Beyond, Ancient Ziggurat, Cavern of Souls, and Reflecting Pool).
What it doesn't do is make Mana Leak obsolete. "
Cedric's argument against Cavern is that Cavern is redundant. Goblins already beats counterspells, so why make yourself more susceptible to Wasteland and PoP to beat a strategy that we already are favored against? Here's what I don't agree with about that line of thought though: In my mind, Counterspell = Spot Removal, and most blue decks run between 4-10 counterspells that are relevant to Goblins. Less spot removal = larger goblin mass > better chance of winning.
Could PoP become a real problem? Yes. But if that's the case it's probably better to ditch Wasteland than Cavern.
I agree with jrw1985.
Cedric Philips only writes about wether or not your Goblin Lackey will resolve. As afar as I know there are other Goblins that will benefit from Cavens ;-)
Besides, I can't remember the last time when I had trouble with an opponent's wasteland - so this argument is kinda....bad.
With Cavern you don't have to play around Daze anymore and you can walk right into Spell Snare with Instigators. It seems so lovely, but then again only time will tell just how detrimental the added vulnerability to PoP is going to be. If Price is going to be everywhere I think not playing them might be the correct move, but I'm not sure yet.