[DTB] Blade Control

I ended up getting 3-1-2, with the Esper list I posted a few posts up, at Jupiter Games SCG invitational qualifier. It got my 16th place which was good for nothing but 1 invi point.

My matchup were:
1-1-1 UWr Miracles
2-1 Manaless Dredge
2-1 Scapewish (Arianrhod)
1-1-1 UW RiP Miracles with Back to basics
1-2 4c Loam Control
2-1 RUG Tempo (He gave me 2-1 as I got paired down, we played for fun and he actually beat me 1-2)

The list felt right, but the deck itself felt meh. I wish I had made dedicated slots to geist in the board, and less slots to combo. Geists can still come in against combo, but they also are good against miracles. The Loam Matchup felt unwinnable, my win against him was only because I had the nuts, and his hand was pretty bad. I also sideboarded really badly against Loam, but I think it was partially because I just felt hopeless against that deck.

Tinket mage was not super awesome, but not bad. He saved me from leathal angel tokens once. But a lot of the time I drew him after I had already cast my top and EE and he did nothing.

Top was awesome every time I drew it.

I didn't see lingering souls much, but it was good when I had it.

Cabal Therapy was the best card in my SB hands down. I blind hit 3 Jaces against Miracles one game, it was pretty hilarious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

Here is the Esper Blade list I'm considering for the BoM. Like in the Lightning Blade list I'm working on (which I'll post later), I'm trying to minimize graveyard interaction to bring RiP from the board.


// Esper StrixBlade

// Creatures [12]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Restoration Angel

// Instants [13]
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sorceries [6]
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vindicate
2 Thoughtseize

// Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives

// Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Karakas

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats


// Sideboard [15]
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Notion Thief
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Disfigure
1 Perish
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Zealous Persecution


In this list, I remove some Snapcaster Mage and Lingering Souls, adding 3 Baleful Strixes. Academy Ruins can recur Equipment like in other lists, but it may also recur Baleful Strix (for infinite blockers + CA) and Engineered Explosives. In G2 / G3, I can bring RiP against GY-dependent matchups, since I use my GY very little aside from 2 SCM and 1 Academy Ruins.

I included the Restoration Angel tech mainly for BGx decks, but it does work in other matchups, saving creatures from removal, bouncing a blocker before damage to save it and avoid lifelink, and triggering ETB effects of Strixes, Clique, SCM, and SFM.

Strix is a nice wall for Jace too :)

To make this list, I researched other lists in this thread that feature Baleful Strix, and scoured tcdecks and mtgtop8. This list was very similar to what I had in mind, though I don't like the: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4925&d=228443

What are your thoughts? I'm thinking of trying to fit a second Inquisition of Kozilek in the main, as well as a 1-of Lingering Souls. I'm also considering replacing one or both Spell Pierce with Counterspell...

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Sorry I didn't reply to your previous post about the RiP strategy I wanted to adopt for Blade Control. I took your advice, however, and brewed an Esperblade list for a local tournament. I looked into Strix as you mentioned and saw an answer to the matchups I traditionally have the most trouble against (Stifle, Delver, and Mongoose). During the tournament, Strix turned out to be invaluable and, to my surprise, against Shardless BUG I always ended up being the control player while my opponent had to be the aggressor. RiP put in the work I expected and I am heavily considering this list for Washington. Here's the list and my results:


4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Vindicate

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
//SB
3 Rest in Peace
3 Flusterstorm
2 Dimir Charm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vindicate
1 Notion Thief
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Engineered Explosives


R1: 2-0 vs. Esperblade with Ancestral Visions
R2: 1-2 vs. Deadguy Ale
R3: 2-0 vs. Miracles
R4: 0-2 vs. Maverick
R5: 2-1 vs. Shardless BUG
R6: 2-1 vs. T.E.S.

I finished 9th and missed top8 by a hair. It was a tough tournament overall because every round was hardly fought for. The matches I lost were very simply lost. A heavy mana flood and mana short in two games against Deadguy, and I failed to find any removal against Maverick in both of my games (even postboard).

Prior to the tournament I tested with Inquisition and Thoughtseize over additional counterspells and didn't like it one bit. I don't think counterspells and discard mix together very well for reasons I don't have time to reiterate right now.right now.

Nice result, Qweerios! I'm not sure about replacing discard with counterspells in EsperBlade, though. I feel like the main raison to play black is to get access to discard to protect your early Stoneforge and to disrupt combo. If I am going to replace discard with counterspells, I'd rather go for an UWr build with counterspells and flash creatures.

Tonight, I will play this pile at my local:


// UWr WizardBlade

// Creature [11]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

// Instant [20]
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Daze
2 Stifle
1 Izzet Charm
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifact [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

// Planeswalker [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Land [23]
1 Karakas
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Mutavault
2 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain

// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Redirect
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict



The list is untested, so my choices might be totally wrong... We'll see tonight :)

Like in the Esper list I posted earlier, I'm trying to depend as little as possible on the GY, for post-board RiP. The big problem with UWr lists is that they often don't have enough creatures to equip, when compared with Esper Blade that has access to Lingering Souls / Baleful Strix. I could go with 4 SFM 4 SCM 2 Clique 1 Venser, but I'm trying to lower my dependency on the GY... So I lowered the Snapcaster count to 2, and added a Faerie package with 2 Spellstutter Sprite, 2 Mutavault, and 1 Riptide Laboratory. On paper, Spellstutter Sprite is awesome against all the 0 and 1 CMC spells in the format. It's great to counter an Ancestral Vision with a Spellstutter Sprite :)
I also wanted to improve the early game against tempo decks, and so I removed 1 Jace, and added 2 Stifle to protect my lands from wasteland. The idea is to use Stifle like Next Level Threshold does: to slow down my opponent's early game development while establishing control of the game. It can also do work against a ton of abilities in the format (cascade triggers, Lili's -1, suspend triggers...). The 1-of daze is there as a "gotcha" card. If you get them with it G1, they will play around it G2 / G3, thinking you are some kind of UWR Delver archetype :)
I can't wait to test the interactions between Riptide Lab, Mutavault, and Spellstutter Sprite.

I'm going to test a one-of Pyroclasm in the SB as a sweeper. If it works, i might even want to replace the Supreme Verdict with a second one, to reduce my dependency to white mana. I'm trying to play as little double-white spells as possible, which is why I'm not playing Elspeth.

So, I've played straight Miracles for awhile. I used to use SFM + Batterskull as a win condition in the deck, simply because of its power against aggro. However, there was always some awkwardness between Terminus and creatures. So with SFM everything together was a little bit awkward. However, as I've played more Miracles, I've realized that what tends to just be winning me games over and over is Entreat the Angels. So, I was thinking that maybe a stoneforge mystic deck can work well with entreat, because that card is insane and most decks simply cannot deal with it, even when you only make 2 angels.

I haven't gotten a chance to play a list like this yet, but this is an adaptation of my current miracles list, dropping a few of the control elements for a few more creatures, so it probably can do relatively well:


//12 Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Baleful Strix
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique

//26 Spells
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//22 Lands
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit


Obviously it's just a rough outline, but do you guys think there are merits to playing Entreat the Angels in this type of deck? I realize this list is skimping on the stack control a bit, so unfair decks seem to be somewhat problematic, but I feel like you can address this in the board and the list should be pretty powerful against many of the fair decks right now.

Ive been considering just like throwing in entreat to esper stoneblade for a little while now. That list you posted is a little funky though, mostly the 2 DRS and the mana base.

I would probably just do something like a traditional (vidi's) list with -3 souls, -1 Counterspell, for +2 Top, +2 Entreat.

That probably isn't right either, but it gives the deck a way to beat the late game engines of the other "fair" decks (pfire for jund, and Recall of Shardless). Giving that those are probably the biggesting thing keeping Esper out of the meta, I definitely do see potential in entreat.

Mainphase entreating for 2-3 angels isn't terrible most of the time. And unlike miracles, we can clear the way with discard first, or force their hand on removing our must answer threats like SFM and Skull.

There's a scg tournament coming up in November 3, 2013

I don't know what deck to play...esper with Baleful or lightning blade with Grims.

Please help me decide. Probably lots of midrange since the meta has a bunch of annoying jund decks from what i've seen at the local game store.

@KobeBryan,

Strix gave me the edge I needed against Midrange decks (Jund and Shardless BUG). Along with Academy Ruins, it crushes anything trying to get through to your Jace. I don't miss any of the red stuff either and the discard was awful in testing. Stoneblade is perfectly fine without discard and keeping black to a splash for Strix, a Vindicate, and a Sorin won't force you into situations where you have to go for a T1 black source. Strix carries a Jitte beautifully and does a much better job at protecting you than Lingering Souls. Losing REB/Pyro is really not that big of a deal either. Having 2 Vindicates between the main and the board was huge during my last tournament and handled several Jaces, Lilianas, Counterbalances, a Goyf, a Jitte, and a Batterskull. Notion Thief is also a great asset to have against BUG and Miracles as a single trigger is enough to turn the match around.

Of all the Blade lists I have played over the last 2 months, the Esperblade list I last posted is definitely the one I would bring to my next tournament. I am heavily considering it for Washington (-1 Elspeth for +1 Sorin, -1 Counterspell for +1 Supreme Verdict in the main and -1 EE for +1 Pithing Needle in the board). Lightning Blade is a blast but it has more difficulty dealing with Mongoose/Geist, and it doesn't "outvalue" Shardless BUG as easily. Bolt also loses its charm if you want to swap Snaps for RiPs postboard.

Did you just really say that Discard is bad in Esperblade or am I misunderstanding something? :O

Greetings

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

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That miser Daze and those 2 Stifles seem very random.
+1 Pierce, +1 Snare, +1 Bolt seems like a legit swap. The rest of the list seems decent though Sprites should be a full playset since: the more => more.
Then again I was never pleased with them despite really wanting them to work. Baleful Strix is better by far, that is if you can afford U. Seas.

How did the tourney go for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

@KobeBryan,

I don't miss any of the red stuff either and the discard was awful in testing. Stoneblade is perfectly fine without discard and keeping black to a splash for Strix, a Vindicate, and a Sorin won't force you into situations where you have to go for a T1 black source. Strix carries a Jitte beautifully and does a much better job at protecting you than Lingering Souls..

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U seem to have a different opinion on the discard.. Well, I think the 4discard spells are mandatory for the deck. They are ur proactive answer to combo and to gain information on what to do next. Having to go t1 black source for discard isn't an argument, as I have always played 4basics along with 10fetches, so U can easily get a t1 swamp if so needed. How can discard be awfull? Its needed against combo and its so good against almost anything u face.. Saying strix is way better then Lingering Souls is also pretty loose. Lingering Souls does a far better job against Shardless bug/midrange decks then strix will ever do. Anyways I really think U should reconsider about cutting the discard. Greetings-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Did you just really say that Discard is bad in Esperblade or am I misunderstanding something? :O

Greetings

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As I understand it, the main raisons to play Esper Blade over UW or UWr are:
- discard to disrupt combo, see your opponent's hand to plan your first few turns, and discard removal to protect a T2 Stoneforge
- better creatures to carry equipment (Lingering Souls, Baleful Strix in some recent builds)
- access to some cool SB cards like Perish, Notion Thief, Zealous Persecution, Darkblast, more Discard

The cons are:
- it's a more "tappout" approach, since you play less instants and flash creatures
- discard is usually bad in the late game
- you lose REBs and Blood Moon from the sideboard

I think that if you are going to play Esper, you should play discard spells. If you don't want discard, you might be better of with a red splash.

I'm currently testing a UWr list with a small red splash (just 2 volcanic islands) for 1 Blood Moon and 2 REBs in the board... But I'm really tempted to go with Esper. Especially since the recently spoiled black sweeper :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

That miser Daze and those 2 Stifles seem very random.
+1 Pierce, +1 Snare, +1 Bolt seems like a legit swap. The rest of the list seems decent though Sprites should be a full playset since: the more => more.
Then again I was never pleased with them despite really wanting them to work. Baleful Strix is better by far, that is if you can afford U. Seas.

How did the tourney go for you?

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I ended up going 2-2.

Round 1 - Shardless BUG - 2-0
G1
He mulled to 5, and I had 2 waste and 1 Stifle. At some point he +1'ed Liliana while hellbent, I bounced it in response with Venser. Next turn I bounced Venser back with Riptide Lab. 2 turns later he played another Liliana, and +1'ed again while hellbent... I guess he forgot about the Venser in my hand :p
G2
He mulled to 6. Had a land-light hand. Played Ancestral Vision. A few turns later, I Cliqued him in response to the last suspend trigger, saw a FoW and non-blue card, and stifled the Visions :) He got me to 8 life according to my notes, I think with a goyf, which I later stopped with RiP. He conceded when he saw the writing on the wall with my Jace brainstorming each turn and him unable to stick a threat.

Round 2 - 12 Post UGw (splash for Terminus) - 0-2
G1
I wasted one of his lands, countered his Candelabra with a Spellstutter Sprite, stifled his Expedition Map... At some point he played Ulamog, targeting Batterskull, which I bounced. I had StP and Karakas in hand, and I think I missplayed by using Karakas to bounce Ulamog instead of just swording it... Repeal was very annoying since it tempo'ed me out by bouncing the germ token.

G2
Repeal was again annoying. I set up a big turn where I put a SoFaF in play with Mystic, equipped it to my Faerie, hoping to attack and untap all my lands for more plays... But he bounced my Faerie...
He won a few turns later with 18 mana and infinite Emrakul.

12 Post is a really bad matchup for control decks. My new list might be better against it, since I'm planning to play 1 Crucible, 2 Wasteland, as well as 1 Blood Moon and 1 Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard to slow it down...



Round 3 - Storm - 2-0
G1 He thought I was on RUG Delver so kept a bad hand. I had tons of countermagic...
G2 I found my one-of Ethersworn Canonist and that was GG.

Round 4 - RUG Delver - 1-2
G1
Won thanks to Verdict and Jace. At some point I cast Spellstutter Sprite on his Delver, and he killed it in response with a bolt to fizzle the ability. That's too sad, but I'd rather have him bolt my faerie than my Mystic :)
G2
He killed me with a Goose, while I was unable to find enough mana to play my Verdict
G3
We ended G2 with 30s left on the clock. It should have been a draw, but we decided to still try to play it very fast to see what would have happened if we had more time, while others were playing their extra turns. I played very fast so I might have made mistakes, but he was obviously winning, so I conceded to him


Daze never came up. The idea was to have another counter for the early game, and make people fear it in G2/G3. Stifle was pretty cool to slow down my opponents, and to protect my utility lands... But it might be better to replace it with a more controlling card :)

Going forward, I want to play more colored mana sources, so I'm testing a list with less cute utility lands, and with a lower red splash. I also added 3 Ponder to find lands during the early game against tempo decks, and find threats and one-of cards in the late game and post SB.


// Creature [9]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

// Instant [16]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

// Sorcery [5]
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Ponder

// Planeswalker [4]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Artifact [4]
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

// Land [22]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Mystic Gate
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Plains

SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Detention Sphere

SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Wear // Tear

SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict



I think Supreme Verdict will be great against all the creature decks, and especially those packing True-Name Nemesis... I might include a few Nemesis as a wall, win-con and unkillable equipment carrier... Maybe removing Snapcaster Mage and Crucible to reduce the GY dependency for post-board RiP?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt

As I understand it, the main raisons to play Esper Blade over UW or UWr are:
- discard to disrupt combo, see your opponent's hand to plan your first few turns, and discard removal to protect a T2 Stoneforge
- better creatures to carry equipment (Lingering Souls, Baleful Strix in some recent builds)
- access to some cool SB cards like Perish, Notion Thief, Zealous Persecution, Darkblast, more Discard

The cons are:
- it's a more "tappout" approach, since you play less instants and flash creatures
- discard is usually bad in the late game
- you lose REBs and Blood Moon from the sideboard

I think that if you are going to play Esper, you should play discard spells. If you don't want discard, you might be better of with a red splash.

I'm currently testing a UWr list with a small red splash (just 2 volcanic islands) for 1 Blood Moon and 2 REBs in the board... But I'm really tempted to go with Esper. Especially since the recently spoiled black sweeper :)

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Yeah this was what I was saying. Despite Black being superior I see the possibilities of playing Red. But if you already have Black in your deck you really really have to add Discard, lol.

Greetings

I don't like discard at all in Esperblade and have never liked it despite the established convention that somehow proactive disruption in the form of targeted discard is too good to pass up even though it is clearly conflicting with a reactive control strategy. Every time I brew an Esper list I would start with a stock list with 2 IoK and 2 TS and they always end up being replaced by something else. I have similar issues here than in the Team America thread where some people cannot conceive a deck playing the BUG colors with Delvers and Goyfs and dismissing Hymn altogether for more reactive answers like additional soft counters or Stifle. If you have mana to Hymn, you might as well have mana for a Counterspell. The same logic applies to TS/IoK vs. Snare/Pierce/Stifle.

Let me explain (once again) how I think Discard vs. Counterspells should be viewed:

Discard is proactive disruption with a larger array of disruption. The impact of T1 discard is more statistically likely to occur than counterspells but generally results in less immediate impact. What I mean by that is that a T1 discard will always hit something, but it won't prevent your opponent from playing something after he untaps. Discard suffers from being "dead" or severely sub-optimal in the later stages, you generally try to avoid drawing them when you try to keep a tight grip on a match.

Counterspells are reactive disruption with a narrower array of disruption (at 1 mana/soft counters). The impacts of a counterspell are less likely to occur than discard spells but generally result in more immediate impact. What I mean by that is that answering your opponent's spell with your own might not always leads to a 1 to 1 exchange where your opponent is left with nothing in play. Counterspells sometimes fall short as you have unsuccessfully left mana open for a spell you couldn't counter. This is often mitigated by having counterspells that counter non-creature spells and instant removal spells for permanents because removing a removal is often the equivalent of countering it.

This comparison between Discard and Counterspell is the difference between weakening your opponent's play and negating it entirely. Playing with counterspells requires more manipulation because you have to have the right balance of counters and removal to successfully prevent your opponent from using his cards. It is definitely more challenging and more rewarding than choosing to disrupt your opponent's best threat and trying to deal with the next best one. In today's metagame, discard won't cripple your opponent as much as a counter because often decks will pack several quality cards that you simply do not want to deal with at all and, or cannot deal with entirely with discard (Goyf, SFM, and Bob in the same deck/hand for example or a topdecked/brainstormed/pondered/topped/sylvan'ed threat during any stage).

Also, its not like targeted discard was invaluable against combo decks. Playing against combo decks is a zone I am most comfortable with and definitely prefer a combination of counterspells to non-permanent proactive disruption. Opening with a TS to remove a Duress because I have to hold on to a FoW leaves a bitter taste when I see my opponent cast a Ponder when he should have been using his turn to run a Duress into my Spell Pierce. Hand information is of little value against a deck like ANT, TES, or SnT because it doesn't mean you have more tools to stay alive, it simply means that you now know whats coming. Knowing your opponent's hand in such matchups is trivial when their options are limited and your answers are not. Knowing that your opponent will go off with PiF, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Ad Nauseam, or straight to Tendrils won't make you dig for anything different in most cases. The best information you will have is generally that you are allowed or not to tap out (which in most cases the answer is No) for a threat when in the first place you should be either able or not to play a threat regardless of that information.

One fundamental difference between a deck like Deathblade and Stoneblade is the way you play SFM. In Deathblade you try to push SFM through by surrounding it with other quality threats while preceding them with proactive disruption. The deck is entirely proactive and the counterspells are free if they pack any. Stoneblade tries to squeeze SFM into play. The beauty of the card is in its minimal mana investment for maximal impact and flexibility. This means that you ought to keep the board state to a crawl until you want to play it with some form of counter backup for maximum value. Traditional Esperblade is a bit of a hybrid between Stoneblade and Deathblade as it tries to push an early SFM with less consistency than Deathblade, and tries to squeeze SFM with less consistency than Stoneblade. Lingerings Souls, Snaps, and SFM no longer reign supreme in the value department as they slowly lost their appeal when answers to equipments became widespread. With abrupt decay being played as a 4of in a load of decks, 1/1s and 2/1s no longer carry Jittes and Swords nearly as long and eventually succumb to 3/2s, 2/2s and 1/1 flying deathtouch with cascade/cantrip abilities.

With this being said, UW has a basic shell to try squeeze SFM while keeping your opponent in check with counters and removal. It is very easy to splash for red for additional targeted removal and metagame tools like REB/Pyro and Blood Moon. Splashing black for different tools is as viable an option and doesn't necessitate that you abandon your core strategy (and weaken your manabase/blue count I might add). Not everything has to be instant speed as long as it has a significant impact at a reasonable cost (AKA: good card). SFM, Jace, Elspeth, and Verdict are great examples of core cards in Blade Control that will give you a value engine to ride to victory. Strix here is no different from SFM in that it will leave a residual body that cripples your opponent while generating value and further advance your grip on the board. You don't have to tap out for Strix, you simply can. You don't have to start beating with him to be good, you simply can. Strix is the defensive equivalent/complement of SFM in a metagame where you have to survive the initial onslaught to take over a game. Against decks playing lots of different cards that will grant value (Shardless BUG/Jund), you have to start generating value of your own to stay afloat while you try to disrupt their most terrifying threats.

These are just some of the reasons why I think targeted discard is garbage in a control deck. Feel free to comment and argue.

Qweerios - I always enjoy reading your arguments for countermagic over discard. They are both convincing and compelling. The one benefit I feel discard does have compared to counters, one which you did touch on above, is preemptively answering cards that cant be countered and 2-1s like cascade. Im not a control player so maybe this is less relevant to control but discarding abrupt decay or BBE just feels much better than holding a counterspell when they cast it. Interested in your thoughts on this.

To use a conventional argument, if esperblade's most difficult matchups are pure aggro style decks and decks that can generate more card advantage, I can certainly see how discard may not be "enough" in today's metagame. As decks like BUG control can blow us out with card advantage and blue combo decks brainstorm away their valuable cards, discard alone becomes far less valuable. Having said this, the idea of having a proactive early game discard gives the player an ability to deal with cards that counterspells can't. Say for example, that abrupt decay which are, by your own words, being played as a 4of in a load of decks.

Perhaps more importantly, although esperblade has many lines of play, what are we doing in the first few turns? In order to put down a stoneforge mystic and protect it with a spell pierce we have to have 3 mana up. To me, this intangible that is far less appealing than casting discard to remove any choice spells that could impede the stoneforge mystic. This also gives us two options: Cast mystic on turn 2, or finding out why it would be a good reason not to do so. Wouldn't being initially proactive, allow us to see their hand, and thus making us more inclined to try to bait out their removal spells? Considering it takes 2 turns before mystic can produce a threat, I find using discard early, scanning the opponents hand, and making more decisions in regards to shaping my hand in brainstorm or choosing which equipment to take, to be very useful.

Ultimately, I believe discard spells give us more lines of play, allowing us more of an opportunity to play around opponents removal/counterspells. Discard over counterspells give us a stronger chance to squeeze stoneforge mystic in earlier to maintain board position.
In the end, is unilateral discard, in the form of say thoughtseize, really unanimously worse than running conditional counterspells?

For me, my decision can be based on one simple scenario, if you hand contains a stoneforge mystic and a counterspell, would you rather leave two mana open to potentially play that counterspell, or cast stoneforge mystic immediately after having already disrupted your opponent's hand?

Maybe I am playing the wrong deck.

@Qweerios: very interesting points about discard VS counterspells. I actually agree with you about playing Stifle + Counterspells instead of Hymn in BUG Delver. It makes sense that it would also apply to EsperBlade... The only difference I can see is that Team America is a tempo deck, so it's better to use mana to counter a spell and "tempo" out your opponent, instead of discarding their best threat and "tempoing" yourself. When playing Esper Blade, tempo is still important in the early game, but you are a control deck, so you have tools to slow down your opponent. But it makes sense, and I'm going to test it, since I've always liked being reactive.


On an unrelated note, I've been following the Miracles thread for a while, and I can't decide between UWx Miracle or UWx Blade. What do you guys think are the pros and cons of Blade Control vs Miracle Control? Which do you prefer? Why? What about Miracle Blade lists like http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=86258 or http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=82398 ?

I've also been eyeing this Miracle Blade list with the Thopter / Sword combo: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=86975 , which makes me think of David Gearhart's Shot In The Dark deck of old: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=56060 http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=43875

I have played Blade lists out the wazoo (Esper, UW, Death, Junk) and I now play miracles. Love the deck, and I think I have a bit higher of a win to loss ratio with it. I would go miracles if I were you. It's less aggressive, but a lot of fun. It's so cool to do basically nothing besides stop critters for 4+ turns only to topdeck and win the next turn with an Entreat teh Angels. So silly.

-ABC

Why isn't this threat buzzing with everyone drooling over this little bugger?
http://goyf.de/img/Preview/2013/Comm...ren_Namens.jpg
Sorry, didn't find a pic of the English version. // Basically 3/1 protection from opponent --> hexproof + unblockable + does not die through damage from any of your opponent's sources, including combat damage when blocking or damage à la Pyroclasm.
I've done some testing against him and all I could think of was: "please let this undercosted Uber-Morphling be banned asap".
Being a wall of steel when on defense or a juggernaut when equipped (i mean just picture this dude wielding a SoFaI) - Nemesis Man is the ultimate weapon, BladeControl has always been craving.
discuss!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by klaus

Why isn't this threat buzzing with everyone drooling over this little bugger?
http://goyf.de/img/Preview/2013/Comm...ren_Namens.jpg
Sorry, didn't find a pic of the English version. // Basically 3/1 protection from opponent --> hexproof + unblockable + does not die through damage from any of your opponent's sources, including combat damage when blocking or damage à la Pyroclasm.
I've done some testing against him and all I could think of was: "please let this undercosted Uber-Morphling be banned asap".
Being a wall of steel when on defense or a juggernaut when equipped (i mean just picture this dude wielding a SoFaI) - Nemesis Man is the ultimate weapon, BladeControl has always been craving.
discuss!

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In merfolk it sounds great. In caw blade or whatever they're calling this deck now, I'll play it. But calling this card the blessing from the skies that saves esperblade maybe a bit much. I sure don't like the idea of having to become even more dependent on stoneforge mystic as our predominant means of winning. Don't get me wrong, Batterskull+ Idenity Nemesis = vigilant unblockable, indestructible, hexproof, and overall good guy. It'll eventually take cliques spot for me, given my metagame has some aggro decks and I use baleful strix to deal with delver.

Remember we've had access to elspeth, which functionally does the same thing. Although it cost one more, it's a removal resistant planeswalker that creates walling 1/1 tokens and has evasion/unblockability through 4/4 flyers.
Yet most of us don't run it.

Anyways, they're going in my merfolk deck first.