1) Bazaar of BaghdadQuote:
Originally Posted by DreAmiN
2) Play a different deck
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1) Bazaar of BaghdadQuote:
Originally Posted by DreAmiN
2) Play a different deck
So I just acquired a dredge deck from a friend, and I'm wondering what everyone's most standard list is?
I've played the deck a decent amount and have a relatively good understanding of playing the deck if not so much the tuning of the deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreAmiN
vintage dredge is a completely diff beast compared to legacy dredge. The power level of bazaar of baghdad makes the deck even more degenerate.
as for your game 2's and three's... yes if people know your on dredge they are going to bring in every piece of graveyard hate they might have to stop you. LLOTV really shouldn't be too much of a proble, if they get you with it game two you know that's the hate there on and just mull to natures claim anyway... most times if this is the only piece people have they will mull hard to get this ... most likely keeping a horrible five or six card hand that gives you time to use your cantrips to find a natures claim or chain of vapor. I haven't seen LLOTV in over a year since i've been playing the deck so if you go to a big tournament you could probably safely assume most people have moved on from it.
RIP is a completely different piece of hate despite also being an enchantment. It's low casting cost can lead to blowouts if you can't kill the opponent the second that you mill your graveyard. This is where cabal therapy comes in handy. However this sideboard hate I've only seen played in mircales, and sadly they run it maindeck lol. The most common form of sideboard hate for dredge being played is Nihil Spellbomb, surgical extraction, and Deathrite shaman. Deathrite shaman being maindecked sucks, but can easily be outraced. Nihil spellbomb also sucks, but it's just a tormods crypt at the end of the day that can also be played around. The maindeck anti-hate i've been running includes 3 natures claim, 3 pithing needles, and three nethershadow. Nethershadow is to get extra bodies if ichorids or moebas get surgicaled, pithing needles stops deathrite shaman/pithing needle/anything haha, i pithing needled stoneforge mystic at sommerset against a deathblade opponent and won because his batterskull was stuck in his hand for turns three and four.
I personally prefer a dread return package in the maindeck, as it just shits on deathrite decks and allows you to win the second you've gone fifty cards deep into your library. They wanna eat your ichorid on your upkeep... thats fine, you dredge while there shamans tapped out ad reveal dread return and flayer for the win. They wanna eat your dread return or flayer instead, you get ichorids and zombies!!!
Dredge is the most forgiving deck in terms of power-level in all of Legacy. I've seen completely garbage lists do well in decent sized fields. While that is a good thing, it's also a bad thing because people don't realize how sub-optimal their choices were.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
My list-
-lands-14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
-creatures-22
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
-spells-24
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-Sideboard-15
4 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Ashen Ghoul
GENERAL SIDE PLANS AGAINST...
1)Surgical Extraction-
*+2 Ashen Ghoul, +2 DR.
*-4 LED.
2)Crypt/Relic/Nihil Spellbomb-
*+4 Nature's Claim, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 DR.
* -4 Breakthrough, -4 LED.
3)Leyline of the Void-
*+4 Nature's Claim, +3 Chain of Vapor.
*-4 LED, -1 Breakthrough, -1PImp.
4)Rest in Piece on DRAW-
*+4 Nature's Claim.
*-3 PImp, -1 Breakthrough.
ON PLAY- *+2 DR, +2 Iona.
*-3 PImp, -1 Breakthrough.
5)Deathrite/Scooze+Extraction on DRAW-
*+2 Ashen Ghoul, +2 DR.
*-4 Breakthrough.
ON PLAY- *-3 PImp -1 Breakthrough. *+2 DR +2 Ashen Ghoul.
6)Storm Combo-
*+2DR,+2Iona.
*-3PImp, -1 Breakthrough.
7)Reanimator-
*+3 Chain of Vapor.
*-3 PImp.
Keep in mind that these are just basic guidelines and it's up to you to figure out what hate each opponent will be bringing in. If you don't understand why certain cards are coming in/out against certain hate, feel free to ask.
Does anyone know what Jonathan Morris' rationale was behind some of his card choices at SCG Cincinnati? I did a double take when I saw a pair of Flayers MD, and only 10 dredgers. You can't argue with the success he had for the event, but I wonder how much was just due to running hot- The Flayers can be explained as a metagame call, but only 10 dredgers?
I kind of hope JM is active on these forums, I would love to hear a breakdown of his choices and a tournament report. :wink:
His list, for reference:
Creatures (23)
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Lands (12)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Spells (25)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nether Shadow
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
It's probably a combination of things: the right match-ups, the right draws, few mulligans, etc. He probably just ran into a slew of decks unprepared to deal with Dredge, and he was able to capitalize.
10 Dredgers? Jesus. 11 makes me fizzle a LOT.
@HammafistRoob
My maindeck is the same as yours. Pretty good stuff, right? My board is kinda different:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Nether Shadow
1 Dread Return
1 Ancient Grudge
@thread
Nether Shadows are pulling their weight, they're better than Ashen Ghoul, probably. I've played plenty of games where I boarded in Ashen Ghoul and couldn't return him in upkeep due to lack of mana (Wasteland is a thing).
Just got a delivery today of most of the cards I need for this. I am building now. Now while I read what I can, I learn better though watching people play. Does anyone know where I can find some good videos of the deck in action? I am building LED Dredge but the build would not be an issue for me to watch and learn with.
Thanks.
Hey Dice_Box, welcome! Goldfish a lot. The deck is very complex, and requires a lot of decisions to pilot correctly. I goldfished maybe a hundred games before I felt comfortable with what I was doing. Then I started playing real games, and it took me a while to get the hang of. Game one is usually a free-roll, so try to play as many post board games as possible to get a feel for how to play around hate- games 2 and 3 are what separates skilled Dredge pilots from the inexperienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Go to the first page of this thread and read Hollywood's primer. It is very well written, and provides a list of links for articles and videos detailing the finer points of dredging.
Good luck!
Thank you man. I have read the primer, it influenced the choices of cards I laid down money for about 2 weeks back. I have been reading all the talks for the past 2 weeks or so as well. But until I had the actual deck on me I did not feel like I had anything to gain by asking questions. Again because there is only so much I can learn from reading and need to watch or do something myself to drill it in. Now I have everything but LED, something I expect to arive today if tracking is telling the truth, and Ichorid (expected next week) I can test the deck. I am happy to Prox the 8 cards I do not yet have to test with.
What I am mostly looking at is a DR build. Mostly because I like the look of having more Sac targets. I am not sold on the Flayer build, looking strongly at Flame-Kin Zealot as my target but I am sure that people will point out things I have yet to learn and my views will change if needed in time. The only thing I am set on is that I want a Darkblast in my side. My Meta calls for it. Question for the table, do people run Dakmor alongside Blast or is it unneeded?
Dice.
Dakmor isn't usually run in lists that I know of, mostly because its effect is too weak and it's too slow to be used as a mana source. I love DR packages myself, but they are usually win-more. It seems to be more or less the consensus in this forum that dedicated DR targets main are unnecessary when Ichorids, 'Moebas, and zombies does the job just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I like running 1 DR main to have a way to create a ton of zombies on the spot, and the Trolls end up being pretty huge and game-ending anyway.
But that is one of the things I love about this deck. The flex slots may be very few, but the customization options are great if you feel like doing something really flashy and over the top (Zealot) or inexorable and grindy. Hell, there was a time not long ago when everyone in my meta was playing combo decks and I MD'ed Iona for lots of wins.
OK so drop DR targets main and throw in more cards that bounce out of the grave? Run the DR's main tho and in a pinch target Troll? I can see how that would work out. I see testing in my future.
I have some cards I want in my side as DR targets. Elesh Norn and Iona are by far the most desirable. A Reanimator deck and a 12 post deck make me wish to run Angel of Despair too but she seems like a card that mostly does not help outside of limited matchups. What do you think about the Angel?
I think that Angel is going to be too narrow. Elesh Norn and Iona have been locks in my SB for about a year now, and they shine in a large number of matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Some small things that are important to keep in mind when playing the deck (just in case you didn't already know):
You CAN exile one Ichorid to another if you don't have any other black creatures.
Do not name a card for Therapy until after it has resolved.
You need to explicitly say "retain priority" after you cast Breakthrough, before you crack your LED.
Thug's ability to return a Narcomoeba to the top of your library is a great trick to be aware of.
Don't forget to stack the BfB triggers during combat so that you net zombies before your Bridges are exiled.
When Hollywood or Parcher says something about the deck, you can trust that they know what they are talking about.
May I ask for a more in depth explanation of BfB triggers? I understand the stack well enough to to use it as an elf or goblin player but I have no idea how it works with combat damage dice they changed the rules back in 2010.
Ok, lets say you have 2 Bridge from Below in your graveyard. You have an Ichorid in play, and attack. Your opponent blocks with a 2/2 creature. Combat damage is dealt and both creatures die. Then 4 Bridge from Below triggers are placed on the stack (2 triggers that say exile all BfB and 2 triggers that say you get a zombie)in the order that you want (since you control the triggers) So you stack them for the zombie triggers to resolve first, and then the "exile all BfB" triggers resolve last. Boom. you now have a pair of zombies and your opponent is down a creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
This is really important to eak out incremental advantage. If you are going to lose all of your Bridges, you need to be replacing them with board presence so that it doesn't slow you down overmuch.
Ok that you. That helps a lot. Also I am on my phone right now to explain my strange post before. Auto correct likes to make a dick out of me some days.
@Vandalize- Hell yeah man. I'm gonna have to try out the Shadows and I think you could be correct. I'm still missing the LEDs(can probably borrow these tho), Ichorids, 4 gold lands, and the sideboard so I haven't been able to play in a tournament yet. But I have a boatload of experience with Dredge so I figured it would be a good choice for rebuying into the game.
Just to clarify on the Bridge triggers. You must put the exile triggers on the stack first, with the zombie token triggers on top. Also don't forget that when you Dread Return a Troll, he counts himself for an additional
+1/+1.
Ok I have a list, all input is welcomed.
Creatures:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells:
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
Artifacts/Enchantments
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Nature's Claim
My thoughts on Choices:
Ichorid seems to be the fuel of the deck, at least thats what I see on the Vids. Not DR or as much Therapy. But they both help. So I am at 3 right now thinking about pushing 4.
I decided not to run a maindeck DR target. Its seams unneeded game one. While I understand some peoples wish to push Flayer, I am not sold on the idea. My view is that if I am Racing someone then let's see who can win, if I am not racing someone he is just a slot that can be used by something else.
In testing I did not like the land count. Added in the Extra land. Will keep at it. Maybe I am just not use to it yet.
Sideboard is mostly hate. Norn and Iona are the Prison pieces in my mind, I am not looking to use DR to win a game outright, only give myself options to fight other decks. The side is also the thing I am lest set on. I have little skill with this deck and while I feel my main is strong, I think my side may need some help.
Thanks, Dice.
Good start. However, you must play with 10 gold lands and 8 Study effects if you're shooting for consistency. Most hands with only Coliseum as your only land are not keepable(barring LED, or multiple Careful Studies/Breakthroughs). My biggest gripe with traditional Quadlazer was always the 8 gold lands. Ten is the bare minimum, especially for postboard games where more often than not you're looking for green/red cards + gold land + dredger + draw + discard.
Careful Study is miles better than Breakthrough simply because it serves a dual purpose of draw+discard without having to go all-in. It also helps you find sideboard cards to boot. So my suggestions for your main would be -1DR, -1Breakthrough or PImp, +1Citadel, +1 Study.
Sideboard looks good, but I really don't like Elesh in any matchups except the mirror or Elves so if I wasn't expecting those I would play a 2nd Iona. She helps against our toughest matchups, Miracles, AnT, and TES.
Gave that main ago. I can say I see the appeal in having a DR target to kill the turn you combo off. But I was able to, turn two, drop a lot of zombies on the table and DR a Troll. I feel like the Deck runs hot with a DR target, but not sure if killing a turn faster is worth it. Less important once you think that you can rip the other guys hand apart.
I Am testing the 14 mana, 10 Gold. I like it so far. Do you run that always main or do you run some Mana sided for game two?