Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Honestly, how often do we lose the game after a T1/2 fizzle?
Usually we end up with 1/2 grisel in the yard, 0 or 2 cabal therapy on the opponent's hand (and generally after at least a probe), and a hand of 7 chosen from 22-25 cards.
When I lose after a fizzle, it's much more often because discard and countermagic have slowed me down, so I go off later in the game, with a smaller life total. And then I generally do not need mostly IMS, but entomb or shallow grave.
So from your numbers .dk, I spot 2 games out of 50 from which chrome mox would have been better than a land. But I bet that your chances of winning these games would have been better without chrome mox in a real game (If you get FoWed, you're better with this additional card you pitched). And you ignored all the hands which were not starting T1/2, in which mox is awful.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Please pardon me if this is an idiotic question that reveals complete and utter ignorance of how TinFins works, but the answer to this is not obvious to me after some consideration.
Is is possible to build a Tin Fins variant that eschews Emrakul to play the more traditional suite of Reanimate and Exhume? Would it be much worse than the usual way to play the deck?
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
TinFins and Reanimator have vastly different gameplans. Regular Reanimator reanimates a fattie that closes the game in 3 turns or so. TinFins takes a more combo approach by reanimating at instant speed and with haste to deal 22 damage in a single combo turn. The combo preferably starts with reanimating a Griselbrand to draw into the stuff needed to reanimate Emrakul after which your opponent gets hit for said 22 damage and/or gets his board wiped.
They also run Children of Korlis so they can restock on life if they can't find the cards needed to reanimate Emrakul in the first 14 or so cards.
So yeah, you kinda missed the point on how this deck works. Instant speed reanimation and the combo finish are the entire point of the deck. Strip Emrakuls and switch to sorcery speed reanimation and you basically HAVE (what could pass for) regular Reanimator without the normal protection Reanimator uses and a much faster manabase. This deck wants to go off as soon as it can, where regular Reanimator doesn't mind taking more time to manoeuvre to a point where it can safely execute its gameplan through counters and removal.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Hello,
If you want to build an intermediate between reanimator and tinfins, you'll probably soon see that the middle ground is not so interesting:
Starting from the tinfins build:
- if you remove the "haste" effect, griselbrand does draw 7 cards less;
- if you reanimate griselbrand with the actual reanimate card, griselbrand does draw 7 cards less;
Then it is much harder to kill in the same turn.
Then Children of Korlis are not that great, as it will be more often a dead card than one which allows you to kill in the same turn.
Then Tendrills is not that great, see above :) .
So what do you get? You get a faster reanimator, thanks to Dark Ritual, but which does not have the usual countersuit to protect a griselbrand on the battlefield.
And you lose some resiliency by not having more fatties + looting effect.
So there is a good reason that there is not a lot of intermediate builds.
And if you don't see something, it is always a very good idea to ask a question. If you don't see it, you're probably not the only one. The others are just to shy to ask. :)
And once you've asked, either you have the answer and you don't lose time researching a helpless build, either some people will help you building your new crazy idea. :)
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Just cleaning it up some:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Acclimation
Parameters:
If you combo'd and didn't kill that turn, it counted as a fizzle.
I kept hands I would keep in an actual tournament
I stopped after 4 turns, if it didn't kill after 4 turns, it counted as a fizzle
Each game we are on the play
I used my physical deck to do each test
Things I kept track of:
Kills
Total Fizzles
Fizzles due to lack of nonland ims
Fizzles that led to a next turn kill
Number of times Jace was cast and used
Mulligans
#YOLO keeps
Code:
The results:
Kills Fizzles
t1 4 2
t2 2 3
t3 6 1
t4+ 3 4
Total 15 10
Total games 25
Further breakdown of results
Code:
Kills Fizzles NIMS Mulligans YOLO Jace on battlefield Combo to set up next turn kill
t1 4 2 0 0 1 1 2
t2 2 3 0 2 1 1 3
t3 6 1 0 1 0 2 1
t4+ 3 4* 0 2 0 3 1
Total 15 10 0 5 2 7 7
*: If the game went past t4, I counted it as a fizzle on turn 4.
FWIW, table tags work too. Same as HTML but brackets instead of <>
| column |
column2 |
| data |
data2 |
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dte
Honestly, how often do we lose the game after a T1/2 fizzle?
Usually we end up with 1/2 grisel in the yard, 0 or 2 cabal therapy on the opponent's hand (and generally after at least a probe), and a hand of 7 chosen from 22-25 cards.
When I lose after a fizzle, it's much more often because discard and countermagic have slowed me down, so I go off later in the game, with a smaller life total. And then I generally do not need mostly IMS, but entomb or shallow grave.
So from your numbers .dk, I spot 2 games out of 50 from which chrome mox would have been better than a land. But I bet that your chances of winning these games would have been better without chrome mox in a real game (If you get FoWed, you're better with this additional card you pitched). And you ignored all the hands which were not starting T1/2, in which mox is awful.
As I mentioned in my post - I wasn't testing Chrome Mox in the opening hand. I was testing T1/2 fizzle rate. I will be running morning experiments today - I can keep track of that number too for mulligans. Same methodology as Acclimation that he and I talked about last night.
And as far as losing after fizzling - again I think some of this depends on how you are playing the deck. I pretty much assume I'm going to get there and go real low on life. Most recently I lost to a Deathrite activation.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Busted some nice onions @MKM Prague.
First my list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Gemstone Caverns
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Reanimate
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Soul Spike
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
SB:
1 Bayou
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pithing Needle
Some thoughts: I didn't had the third Underground/Tropical (forgot the Trop at home), so I tested the Gemstone Caverns (should be another U producing land). Since I wanted an instant speed kill con, I had the option between Quicken (Tendrils), Borborygmos Enraged or Soul Spike. I went with Soul Spike, since it is more useful than the others outside of the combo.
210 players played the tournament, so 8 rounds of Griselbeezes.
Round 1 against ANT 2-0
Game 1: He starts with Island + Petal (after a Probe) so I put him on some form of Show and Tell. After my draw, I had the kill in hand, but no form of protection, so I chose to pass instead (playing that petal). He went for the ADN kill, generating something around 23 storm and threw a Tendrils at my face, just to die in response too a looped Soul Spikes (he was at 6). First round, and I already need the instant speed kill XD (although, I could have gained infinity life here, so w/e).
Game 2: I have a Turn 2 kill, he went for the ADN on turn 2, but bricked on LEDs to use his IT. A hasty Griselbrand was the nail in the coffin for him.
Onions 1 ; Storm 0
Round 2 against Canadian ***** 2-1
Game 1: He plays fetch into Delver, I went with fetch into Ponder, he went for an upkeep BS, flipped his Delver and attacked for 3. I untapped, duressed him, see, that he has nothing, and kill him with a Tendrils for 26 (had to play around a Bolt here).
Game 2: I had a hand with Therapy, Shallow Grave + Goryo's, Griselbrand and some other stuff. I chose to therapy him, see that he has nothing and can't get an discard outlet for Griselbrand/don't find an entomb.
Game 3: Underground into Ponder, he went for cantrip, I duressed him and see, that I can kill him next turn (if he doesn't rip anything). He doesn't so he dies.
Onions 2 ; bug 0
Round 3 against 4c Delver (bUrg basically) 2-0
Game 1: I went with GP turn one, saw his hand (2x Delver, Snappy, Daze, Waste, Polluted, Tarn), played fetch and passed. He went for DRS turn 1 (so I still had perfect information) and in my turn I swing with the Tag Team for more than lethal.
Game 2: After thinking a bit, he keeps. I mull to 6, than to 5 - Scry shows me the Entomb which I'm missing. He went for DRS turn 1. I drew the Entomb, looked at him and said, that he has no FOW/Daze and went for it - Petal, DR, Entomb + Shallow Grave. Tendrils for more later and I won. He was a little bit pissed afterwards (he had 2 Envelops, 1 Stifle and some other stuff in hand).
Onions 3 ; Bug 0 (again XD)
Round 4 against Punishing Mentor (UWR Mentor with Punishing Fire) 2-0
Game 1: I had a good hand, but needed a little bit time to get towards protection (he had FoW in hand). On turn 3, I find the second Shallow Grave and kill him through a force.
Game 2: He starts with Fetch and died on my turn. Welp, that's Tin Fins.
Onions 4 ; Mentor 0
Round 5 against Miracles 0-2
Game 1: Mull to 6, keep a ok hand which can get there on turn 3 (thanks to LDV). He went top into Counterbalance and has both Ponder and Snapcaster on top (and keeps them there). Since I didn't want to reveal, that I'm was on Tin Fins, I tried to get some informations from him (which kill con he has). A Entreat for 5 on turn 2X was enough to kill me.
Game 2: See game 1. I get a Grisel in the Graveyard, but he has the Snappy on top for the blind flip and thus blocking me for reanimating Griseldaddy :(
Onions 4 ; Miracles 1
Round 6 against Dragon Stompy 0-2
Game 1: He won the dice roll, went for Cavern + SSG into Chalice @1. I look at my hand and start crying, since I had the Turn 1 kill. I died to some Dragon beats.
Game 2: I probe him, see 2 3Sphere, Chalice, Dragon and non Sol Lands. I pondered and prepared the turn 2 kill. Guess what he drew? A Sol Land later I was dead. At one point I could have won the game, if I would have seen a rather strange line of play (involving Krosan Gripping his Chalice and keep the 3Sphere alive), but I was to salty to see this line.
Onions 4 ; Dragons 2
Round 7 against Meerfolk 1-2
Game 1: He went Cursecatcher go, I played Fetch go, he went Lord attack go, I killed him through a FoW (he didn't force the Ritual, which would have bought him another turn).
Game 2: I mulled down to 4, kept a wonky hand and Meerfolk does what it does. Vial into Cursecatcher into Wasteland + Lord, into another Cursecatcher was enough to kill me. Btw. if he didn't drew the Wasteland in that turn, he would have died (was able to play through a FoW + 1 Cursecatcher there). Saw Chalice @1 here.
Game 3: Weirdest game I played so far. He kept a 6, I kept my 7 (which included some number of Decays). He played Cursecatcher into Phantasmal Image copying it, into another Image copying AGAIN. I had to decay a Lord at some point, Soul Spike a Curser, Tendrils for 8 (just to survive), he sacced both Catcher into it, so that I only get 4 life. Next turn I untapped forced a Griselbrand through a Flusterstorm + FoW, just so that he get copied by a Image :eek:
He doesn't block but I fizzle, since I didn't drew anything useful in my 14 cards.
Onions 4 ; Fishy 3
Round 8 against TES 2-1
Game 1: WE get deck checked, he forgot to deboard, 1-0 for me.
Game 2: He turn 1ed me with Duress back up, must be nice.
Game 3: I turn 1ed him with Duress back up, I can do this too brah.
End result: Onions 5 : 3 unfunny decks.
Some thoughts: It was a blast to play (as always). SB was crap (had no Flusters -,-*) and I noticed that Slaughter Pact is useless against DRS. However, it is still quite good against D&T and Aggro Loam (they board Thalia/Cannonist).
Gemstone Cavern was crappy (never drew it in the tournament, but in testing afterwards, it was garbage). Furthermore, I need a third U source MD. Will be a Trop, if I stick to this SB.
Don't play Spell Pierce, run Fluster instead (should be obvious, but I just wanted to point it out).
Dunno about the 3/1 split between Grip and Decay, need further testing.
Soul Spike was awesome (won me 3 games). On average, it lets you draw another 7 and lets you play easier around Bolt and such stuff. I will keep it in. Furthermore, the possibility to win with Instant speed is huge. I only needed to do this once against ANT, but it makes things a lot easier.
Pros:
Tin Fins (and how much fun it made)
Soul Spike (we have a reader here (and german Soul Spike looks awesome))
Location (it was in a freaking brewery!!!111)
Beer (fresh from the brewery too)
Food (I have some picks, if you want to see them)
Cons:
Miracles
Dragon Stompy
Meerfolk
SB XD
Gemstone Caverns
no german pimp cards for me :(
Otherwise, I need to test some other things too (like Jace), but I have only limited time atm.
Greetings,
Kathal
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Reports about Bursting Onions always have me wondering why I'm not playing the deck in high caliber events.
Thanks for that Kathal. I'm now back on the fence for Onion Blossoms.
EDIT: now*. Epic typo is misleading.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Reports about Bursting Onions always have me wondering why I'm not playing the deck in high caliber events.
Thanks for that Kathal. I'm not back on the fence for Onion Blossoms.
If I top 16 this open, you'll audible to onion bursts the night before, I can guarantee it.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Awesome report - sounds like you had a blast! And glad to hear you're still wavering Koby... I mean, Knight of the Reliquary seems pretty silly staring across the table at Griselbrand. :)
And... as far as my data set goes. I goldfished 100 games, using the same methodology as Acclimation:
-If wecombo and don't kill that turn, it's a fizzle
-Mulligan decisions were made if I were in a tournament
-If Griselbrand didn't hit play on the 4th turn, it's a fizzle
-Each game we are on the play
-Cockatrice was used to run these experiments
-100 games were goldfished, not including mulligans past 5
I kept track of a couple other things that were relevant to my list, since we're exploring a bit of Chrome Mox, and obviously no Jaces. First, the list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Lim Dul's Vault
It's what I consider to be a "stock" maindeck at this point, with probably 1 flex slot for the 4th Underground Sea.
Here's the simplified data of straight kills vs. fizzles:
|
Kills |
Fizzles |
| T1 |
14 |
2 |
| T2 |
43 |
3 |
| T3 |
29 |
0 |
| T4+ |
4 |
5 |
And the full data with some interesting tidbits. The additional columns are subsets of the ones above - not additive.
|
Kills |
Fizzles |
Killed w/5th IMS |
Fizzled missing IMS |
Mulligan Kills |
Mulligan Fizzles |
YOLO Keep Kills |
Fizzle, but kill next turn |
| T1 |
14 |
2 |
0 |
1 |
0 |
0 |
1 |
1 |
| T2 |
43 |
3 |
5 |
1 |
4 |
0 |
0 |
2 |
| T3 |
29 |
0 |
1 |
0 |
3 |
0 |
2 |
0 |
| T4+ |
4 |
5 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
1 |
0 |
And a couple of other tallies:
| Mulligan due to Chrome Mox |
0 |
| Fizzles using Reanimate |
2 |
| Kills using Reanimate |
1 |
| Mulligan to Oblivion |
5 |
| Hardcast Griselbrand Kill |
2 |
So I think there is some interesting observations and conclusions to draw from the data here:
1. This build will try to combo T1/T2 about 60% of the time. This could be an interesting comparison to the Jace list.
2. about 5% of the time we cantrip and and essentially do nothing by the end of Turn 4
3. Not enough data to determine if one should try to combo immediately with Griselbrand using Reanimate
4. 12 total mulligans out of 105 samples (mull to oblivion wasn't included above) - 7 of which killed. That's pretty spectacular IMO
5. Chrome Mox decreases the fizzle rate by about 5%
6. 3/8 Fizzles on T1/T2 resulted in following turn kills - not totally sure what to draw from that
7. This deck essentially gets Griselbrand in play a whopping 90% of the time by Turn 3!
I should have kept track of which of the YOLO keeps resulted in T4 Fizzles vs. kills - oh well.
Anyway, I would consider doing this on the draw as well, or getting more samples if people think it's actually useful. I'm curious to see what other takeaways people have from this as well, or any other feedback for that matter.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
.dk
I'm curious to see what other takeaways people have from this as well, or any other feedback for that matter.
#YOLOSWAG
Code:
_-====-__-======-__-========-_____-============-__
_( _)
OO( NO STOPPING )_
0 (_ THIS HYPE TRAIN _)
o0 (_ _)
o '=-___-===-_____-========-___________-===-=='
.o _________
. ______ ______________ | #420 | _____
_()_||__|| ________ | YOLO | |_________| __||___||__
(BNSF 1995| | | | SWAG | __Y______00_| |_ _|
/-OO----OO""="OO--OO"="OO--------OO"="OO-------OO"="OO-------OO"=P
#####################################################################
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
.dk
Data and shit
I'll have to finish my testing so we can compare the two.
Good stuff!
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
@All, yeah, I had a Blast playing it at Prague.
Some things I observed:
1) I needed Chrome Mox twice for an kill, because I had no Petals left/didn't draw any.
2)The amounts of T1/2 wins was pretty high. Every win but 2 was in the first 3 turns, and for the others I needed more time to grind through their hate/counterspells (this involved hardcasting Grisel against Punishing Mentor and than overloading his counters via Shallows/Goryo's).
3)Reactive SB is fine, but I like either the DDFT or Mentor board better. However I think, that in a Mentor board, Jace is better than in any other version.
4)I noticed, how good LDV is. I want a second bach (dunno what to cut).
5)The deck wants 3U sources, at least.
6)Thoughtseize >> Duress (need to get foil ger ones :( ).
7)Note to myself, don't keep hands, which have no manasource in them (did it twice in testing and got punished for this).
I think, I didn't forget anything.
Greetings,
Kathal
Ps: @Koby, Griseldaddy is calling for you [emoji14]
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
I think we need to get the turn 1 rate up to around 100-200%.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
After some brainstorming regarding Jace, I would make the following changes (basis is my Prague list):
-1 Gamestone Caverns
-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Duress
-1 LDV
-1 Reanimate
-1 Tendrils/Soul Spike
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Tundra
+1 Thoughtseize
+3 Jace
+1 Grisel
Thoughtseize is better than Duress (which is pretty clear). Also the other changes are understandable, if you want to include Jace. However, I wouldn't want to run more than 3, since they can be clunky and this is a problem in a deck like this. I would either cut Tendrils or Soul Spike, depending on what I expect (heavy D&T meta = Soul Spike, cause it can get rid of those hatebears). Furthermore, it depends, if you want to have access to an instant speed win con or not.
Since you kinda want to run the Mentor SB if you are running Jace (you can get rid of useless cards), you want the Tundra over the 4th Underground. It might be even correct to kick one Swamp for a Island.
SB would look something like this:
4 Mentor
2 Surgical
2 Fluster
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity
2 Dread of Night
X (flex spot, could be either a Needle or a Top).
However, since I have exactly 0 experience with this sort of SB, I would need to test it first to make a profound statement.
@Instant Speed win-con. I toyed and brainstormed a little bit regarding the post choice for this slot. Imo it is Soul Spike, due to the flexibility it can provide. A Borborygmos Enraged can win the game on it's own (did it several times in Modern) by just attacking and than discarding 4 lands (in Modern it is more like 3), however, you need to be super flooded/lucky with your reveals to get a win this way. Quicken has the problem for being U, and if you only have 1 mana available, you are locked out for winning with instant speed.
Another point for Soul Spike is, that mid combo you wouldn't mind drawing it, since it can represent another draw 7 (happened twice in the tournament), where as Borbor is useless in your hand and Quicken is meh. However, quicken is the best precombo.
Greetings,
Kathal
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Following many of the comments on this thread as I attempt to prep for SEA, and tested a Jace version last night against Infect and Miracles. Here's what I found in my (unscientific) testing. The matches were a mixture of pre and post-board scenarios, roughly 4 "rounds" of each match-up.
4 Jaces felt like too many
- It may be sloppy play on my part, but I found that there were hands with a Jace where I'd have preferred a Thoughtseize in order to go off T1 rather than hope to get off on T3 with a Jace activation.
- Post board in a Mentor plan, Jace was fantastic at drawing hate and cycling dead cards (specifically against Miracles), however I'm not sure that it is right to board into against Miracles. I'd almost certainly rather play to the T1/2 win in G3 on the play (because we won G1, right?)
Frequently missed Chrome Mox
- Even as a 1-of, that 5th "free" mana source was noticed when I would fizzle in an effort to get to "just one more mana"
Beating Infect post-board is hard (am I doing it wrong?)
- Managing to deal with a T1 Cage *AND* surviving is brutal. Is there a better side board plan than +2 Chains? Serenity seems far too slow here
- Opponent refused to let me live past T3, which meant playing over hate was unreasonable
- Is this just due to low sample size, and it evens out over time?
I also tested Intuition, just because it felt like Jace -> Intuition should win the game. It also turned out to be tremendously slow, and rough on the mana.
Is the addition of Jace a factor in slowing us down, and should we just be playing Thoughtseize instead? I was mostly playing him because I managed to get them pre-spike, and wanted an excuse to play him in Legacy rather than cash out, but I'm not 100% that he's the right plan here. Awesome Goryo's interactions or not.
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Just so everyone knows, .dk is currently 10-3 at SCG St. Louis!
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Cheese
Just so everyone knows, .dk is currently 10-3 at SCG St. Louis!
Hey, that's nice! What is the score now? =)
EDIT: had problem with time, though your message was psoted 2 hours ago. '^^
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Congrats to him!
Great to see results with the deck.
Do you know what SB he was playing?
His DD one?
Re: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dte
Congrats to him!
Great to see results with the deck.
Do you know what SB he was playing?
His DD one?
I'm assuming DD (I'm not actually there, just following his tweets). Looks like he got knocked out of top8 by a mull to 4 against D&T.
