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Because she fills several important roles. She is a very significant way to interact with Delver of Secrets. She has evasion to get through a clogged board state while also playing defense. 2cc fits our curve much better than another 3cc creature. I don't know about you guys, but I like to leave Vial at 2 for as long as possible for Thalia, Avenger, Stoneforge, etc and only pump it to 3 when I get Mangara or Flickerwisp.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
my reason for playing her is Air Superiority.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc
Also, while I admit, Mirran Crusader is able to deal with many things that Serra Avenger cannot, there are in fact many times when I need a creature that can chump block, but do not have the necessary mana commitment (or the appropriate vial) to cast a Mirran Crusader. In which case Serra Avenger is superior to Mirran Crusader due to costing a single less mana. Additionally I prefer being able to block and kill Tombstalkers with a Sword of Light and Shadow equipped instead of having a useless 2/2 doublestriking pro-black creature sitting on the ground looking up at a menacing 5/5 flying creature unable to interact with it. Same goes for those few occasions when I am able to kill a Griselbrand or similar flying creature vs. reanimator by using the Angel.
Fact is that a flyer has advantages that a ground based creature does not. Especially in a format where the most dangerous creatures are a 5/5 flyer, a 15/15 flyer, and a 7/7 flyer. In fact the only creatures that Mirran Crusader really gives us a massive edge against, is Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. But we really don't need that huge of an advantage against those that we lose our advantage against those select few decks that have flyers.
And yes, I know that Flickerwisp is still in the deck and does fly. But I would rather my flyer have a chance at surviving a Gut Shot now and then...
I totally agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
Finally got around to typing this out. SCG Columbus tournament report.
So to start at the beginning:
Picked up the final pieces of DnT in mid-November, promptly piloted it to 3 consecutive money finishes in local events and think I finally found the deck that fits my play style.
Fast Forward to SCG Columbus: Drove a van full of 7 guys from Southeastern MI down to the tournament, none of us play Standard because that format is garbage. We get there few hours before the Legacy Challenge and agree to all enter.
Here’s the list I played day 1:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Eiganjo Castle
10 Plains
SB:
3 Path to Exile
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa’s JItte
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity
1 Rest in Peace
A few things on choices:
Maindeck Batterskull was mainly present for fear of losing early to Burn or Zoo, both of which were well positioned against BUG. Eiganjo Castle was present purely for the Lols. The sideboard is mostly built to beat RUG and Show and Tell, which I played little of: More on that later.
Legacy Challenge:
Round 1: Esper Stoneblade
Of course I play against my friend who rode in my car first round. He starts game 1 with a quick Jitte, I struggle on mana and get behind on board before scooping to an active Jitte. Game 2 is close but an early Mangara nabs his Batterskull and get ground to 5 life before finding a creature to suit up with SoLS and carry that to victory. Game 3 he struggles on mana and I find Waste, Port, and Thalia for the win.
1-0
Round 2: Pox
Game 1 he drops turn 1 Liliana, which was very scary. Luckily I drop turn 1 vial to play around his turn 2 Sinkhole and reset and kill Lily on turn 4 with Flickerwisp (likely my favorite card in the deck). I keep dropping creatures and he draws lands and concedes. Game 2 he boards into major haterade, 3 Abyss, 3 Engineered Plague, 2 Virtue’s Ruin, and combined with 2 maindecked Tabernacles he easily takes games 2 and 3.
1-1
Round 3: Esper Stoneblade:
Played against a player from my local scene, so I knew he was on Stoneblade. Game 1 I get an early Vial and Thalia but he see 4 Swords to Plowshares and without an active Mother I run out of threats while he gets Jitte online. Game 2 I keep a loose hand that is threat light hand with a lot of mana disruption and he fetches all basics. Definitely should have mulliganed seeing as I drew 4 more lands before conceding
1-2
Round 4: One land Belcher
Of course he wins the die roll. Having watched his previous victory, I knew he was on Belcher, so I keep a hand with turn 2 Thalia, which is too slow for 16 Goblins on his turn 2. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and I curve out into Canonist and Thalia, so he quickly scoops. Game 3 he Belchers me on turn 1. Not really sad I lost that one.
1-3
So after not prizing in the Challenge I didn’t feel amazing about my choice for the next day. I knew Belcher and Pox were matches this deck is not supposed to win, but it definitely rattled my confidence. For a bit I considered changing to either Zombies or Merfolk, but having tested those earlier I knew they were not going to be good against the RUG and BUG meta.
So instead of switching decks, I wrote up my decklist and decided on some random 1am impulse changes, including switching out Revokers for Blade Splicers and Batterskull for Sword of Feast and Famine. Then my group proceeded to cube draft until 4am before we decided we couldn’t sleep and made the 5am trek to Waffle House. After some greasy eggs and a cute waitress, we finally crash at 6am.
Wake up at 9:20am, hurriedly pack up our hotel room and literally run to the convention center. My stomach was reasonably upset, but water and small snacks between rounds helped it settle.
Legacy Open:
Round 1: Goblins
My opponent confesses that this is his first Legacy tournament and one of his first times with his deck even before we start. He was a really nice guy but I got Jitte active early both games and he couldn’t recover.
1-0
Round 2: BUG Delver
Game 1 my opponent misplayed and it cost him the game. I landed Sword of Feast and Famine early and when I go to equip he Abrupt Decays my Stoneforge instead of the Sword, so I just play Serra Avenger and ride it to victory. Game 2 I get Vial online and double Wasteland, plow his two threats, and he concedes to Jitte.
2-0
Round 3: Dredge
Game 1 he opens on Gemstone Mine, Faithless Looting and proceeds to win on turn 3. Game 2 is very close, with me curving out into Ethersworn Canonist, which I didn’t realize was so good in this match, and then Jotun Grunt, which just barely nabbed enough Bridges for me to stabilize with Jitte. Game 3 I manage turn 2 Rest in Peace and he has no answers.
3-0
Round 4: Burn
Did not expect to run into Burn in the 3-0 bracket, but he has no answer to turn 1 Mother of Runes which allows Jitte to work its magic. Game 2 he gets mana screwed and I stabilize with equipment.
4-0
Round 5: RUG Delver
My opponent this round was Ben Weinburg, who is apparently a contributor to the mtg community, but I’ve never seen any of his content. Game 1 I keep a loose hand with Mangara and Flickerwisp, but he forces my Vial and I lost to turn 2 blind-flipped Delver. Game 2 he has the Bolt for Mother and double Spell Snare to back up his nimble Mongoose that got huge fast, and I saw no grave hate.
4-1
Round 6: Burn
This round I played against a friend from my local shop who was running really well with Burn in one of his first Legacy tournaments. Fortunately for me he had mana issues both games and Rishadan Port pulled its weight.
5-1
Round 7: Jund
This round my opponent was John Sava, developer of the famous Athens Blue control deck. He opens with Deathrite Shaman and curves into Bloodbraid Elf, Goyf, and double Abrupt Decay, finishing with Liliana. Game 2 is close but he draws a ton of land and he can’t answer Jitte. Game 3 I curve out with the sick draw of Blade Splicer into Flickerwisp and double Serra Avenger off of two Vials. I plow his Deathrite Shaman and win the game on turn 6 with him on 3 lands.
6-1
Round 8: Elves
Going into this round in 7th place had me pretty geeked, as I have never played a win-and-in at such a large tournament. After finalizing that I couldn’t draw in, I sat down with lots of stomach butterflies. Game 1 he opens on Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, so I put him on BUG, only to then be surprised by turn 2 Elvish Visionary. Hoping to choke him on mana, I Wasteland him and plow his Shaman, only to have him play Gaea’s Cradle next turn and combo out on turn 4. Game 2 I side in hate and land turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, which I’m feeling good about until he Natural Orders for Progenitus on turn 3, which I am in no position to answer.
6-2
Round 9: American Faeries
So I went into this round fully expecting to draw, but my opponent would not do so, and as a result I am put on pretty big tilt. This tilt leads to the awful keep of 5 lands 2 Blade Splicer, which was a sad moment for me. Game 2 is close but he gets Jitte active before I do and pulls too far ahead.
6-3
So overall I felt great with this tournament result. My final placing was 36th, but it felt awesome playing my first win and in. In retrospect my chances of beating Elves without Phyrexian Revoker were slim to none, so I don’t have any hard feeling about the match, especially considering he went on to win the whole tournament.
Moving forward, I feel as though the one major change I would make to the archetype would be to find a maindeck replacement for Phyrexian Revoker. The creature is underwhelming in every major matchup besides Miracles, and Pithing Needle out of the boards seems as though it would fill the same purpose while being less vulnerable to Terminus. As for replacing Revoker,, I’m now testing Stillmoon Cavalier, which so far has performed very well. Protection from Abrupt Decay and STP and Batterskull are all awesome qualities.
Blade Splicers are an interesting idea. Flicking them could be a fun trick, but it also ups the mana curve again...
Also, is there really any major drawback to playing E. Castle over a plains? Sure it is a nonbasic, but in a rare pinch you can use to it save Thalia or Managara from getting killed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
A Mirran crusader should usually be able to race a Tombstalker. And in your situation where you have a avenger with a sword. Then you're aldready winning and should really be attacking. Theres still the decay for this "defense" plan of yours. Against delver you still have the swords. As for theGoyf and mongoose(for example), your crusader can stop both of them with ease. But I never said avengers were the card to sideboard out. Familiar builds should throw the birdies out (since theyre essentially only there to hose Belcer and tes).
I wouldn't mind sideboarding out stoneforge and batterskull. If you board in RiP you don't seem to need batterskull that much. (keeping in the jitte seems good tho) Bug will have a hard time against a crusader carrying a jitte (Which you can still tutor up with Enlightend tutor!)
Im totally new to the deck so i might be wrong on some points. But i think i make a good point to at least test mirran crusader(If only in the sideboard).
---------------------------------
I realized i kind of got into the idea of having crusaders in the board instead of main(I don't think tyou have any room left in the board). Which wasn't what i had intended. The avenger seems to be the card to cut(being the only card ever to even be considered being cut). It's hard to say. Avenger is good but it's still just the beater in the deck, and maybe 2 crusaders could work just as well. It's all in teh meta ofc.
Also. If your Vial gets decayed(for example) you won't be able to drop avenger until t4. Crusader hits the board t3.
Can you Vial in the Avenger before turn four? The card says you can't cast it before turn four, but does vialing count as casting?
You can Vial it into play before turn 4. Vial does not cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by namrufmot
Um... Avenger has Vigilance, so why wouldn't I be attacking again? As for being able to race Tombstalker with Mirran Crusader, that assumes Tombstalker is the only threat that they have on the table, and that you have something equipped to Mirran Crusader to make its swings more substantial than the Tombstalkers 5 damage. In otherwords 5 > 4 basically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerog
you are right, it wasn't you who said to cut Serra Avenger. It was tsabo_tavoc. As for boarding out the Judge's Familiar... I disagree. The Familiar is super good when combined with Thalia, and good on its own as a turn one play against many decks. I mean, come on, turn 1 on the play against anything with Daze or Force of Will in it, how can you say no to shutting those off (assuming they want to do anything else during their first turn) at least until after your second turnQuote:
Originally Posted by Zerog
I think you will find that boarding out Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull will reduce your chances of winning significantly. They are just too good to board out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerog
you do realize that removal is just as likely to hit Mirran Crusader as it is to hit Serra Avenger? In fact having Abrupt Decay hit your vial instead of one of your utility creatures or heck your serra avenger is almost a god send because that means they wasted an abrupt decay on a VIAL instead of one of the cards that actually interacts with them...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerog
There is no real major drawback in playing E.Castle over a plain.Quote:
Originally Posted by namrufmot
However, most of the burn you will see in Legacy is Lightning bolt and it will not save thalia or Mangara from it.
As it can be wasted, there is therefore no real advantage in playing this card.
Orzhov Charm WB
Instant
Choose one - Return target creature you control and all Auras you control attached to it to their owners' hands; or destroy target creature and you lose life equal to that creature's toughness; or return target creature card with converted mana cost 1 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield
Do you think that can be played in D&T? Sometimes oust has seen play and the charm is way better at removing a creature (or bouncing at least), with the option of recurring mother, stoneforge or mangara. I don't know if it's worth the black splash though...
We have such a high creature density that it really isn't necessary to have creature recursion in our deck. But if Creature recursion is necessary, then why not just add Sword of Light and Shadow back into the deck and maintain our color solidarity instead of turning us into a bad knock off of deadguy ale?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
I was thinking to the charm mainly as a removal, the recursion was just added value. In the past oust was used because path to exile is not synergic with the rest of the deck, and the charm is a better option instead of the latter. Needing the black splash kinda disturbes me though.
I believe that if we really want to go Wb just because of removal, there's probably better removal in B than Orzhov Charm. I don't think bringing Mom's back once in a while is good enough.
My mistake on the Vigilance, i'll take that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin
A few comments on the rebound:
Just because the crusader actually hits for less, doesn't mean he's not gonna race a tombstalker. DnT especially since getting a crusader on the board takes a lot less effort than bringing in a tombstalker(mana denial,them getting BB, we have vial + all the disruption). Our opponent won't be able to steal his mana from us as easy(we don' fetch)
As for the familiar, i'm still mostly talking about the BUG matchup(which is pretty dominating in my local meta). Yes, he can work against counters and pairs well with thalia. But in the case the opponent just lays down deathrites, goyfs and potential other guys(bob to bait a sword, mongoose etc) he can just sit there and judge all he wants. He(or she?) also doesn't help against abrupt decay(not trying to put decay in everything, but it's a pretty popular card now).
Stoneforge: You might be right. I haven't played the deck yet(might get a chance next week), so i'm just speculating.
I'm not so sure about it being a "good" thing losing your vial to decay, since the only real utility card we have without it is mangara.
I appreciate all the comments.
Hello.
What's the reason not to play a couple of fetchlands?
One of the major strengths of this archetype is how stable the manabase is. Adding fetchlands/splashing a color leaves our mana unnecessarily vulnerable to Stifle and opposing Wastelands, and other colors don't really offer the deck enough to make adding this vulnerability worth it. Also, if we were to add black to the deck, Orzhov charm would be the last reason to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by attemanden
You must be forgetting Flickerwisp (which ironically can protect your Vial from Abrupt Decay if the Vial is untapped and already on 3), Stoneforge Mystic, and Mother of Runes, oh yeah and Umezawa's Jitte. All four are utility cards. And not one of them is Mangara of Corondor or Aether Vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerog
And no problem with the comments.
This deck has a premium of land space, and with only 12 or so spaces for basic lands, removing some of them for more non-basic lands even if those non-basic lands entire purpose is to fetch the basic lands, just isn't worth it. This is especially true if your opponent decides to play a Blood Moon and suddenly your only on color source of mana is whatever basic plains you still have left in your deck. Adding to this general problem are cards such as Price of Progress. This deck is incredibly vulnerable to mana disruption that focuses on non-basic lands and adding more non-basic lands is just not a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by attemanden
About Orzhov Charm:
there are more efficient removal spells like oust / gut shot that can be played instead of it.
The only interresting trick i see in addition to bringing back MoM could be the possibility to retrieve Judge's familliar from the graveyard to counter a spell.
However, adding black to the deck may be very problematic: You'll need to reduce the number of colorless sources or play a non basic heavy manabase and the deck may become very vulnerable to wasteland.
Also Orzhov charm is a non creature spell that cost 2 mana already. it may be too expensive with thalia...
About Fetchlands:
I think that the deck needs a lot of mana to function perfectly. you need mana to tax the opponent (Wasteland is sacced. You need 2 mana to tap an opponent's land), you also need it to pay your own taxes (Stp when thalia is in play), and several of key cards require 2 white sources (That can't be 2 karakas of course). Also Batterskull is 5 mana!!
Adding fetchlands would lower the chances to draw a second white source, and to draw lands. There's a reason why there is 23 lands in this deck. you need them.
I don't think this deck is vulnerable (at all) to opposing mana disruption. It is a rare occasion (read: Karakas is our only white source + we don't have a vial + we don't have a board presence) when we are sad to see our opponent use Wasteland on our lands. In almost all matchups, WE are the ones who want to Wasteland our opponent's. If they waste a Port, then a lot of the time we will have accomplished what the Port was supposed to do and at the same time freeing up our mana. With such a low curve, we can usually get off a threat or two before Wasteland can screw, thus making it unlikely in the long run that we will have mana issues because of that (if you create enough time, you will draw out of it). And this deck is perhaps only behind monored burn and elves in terms of Blood Moon resistance with 9-10 Basic Lands and Vials. That said, I don't think the few percentages of 'draw quality' we get from thinning lands with fetches make up for an increased susceptibility to opposing Stifles and Wastelands. Especially since we are not splashing. While I don't agree entirely that we WANT to draw lands, there is usually a lot of use for them in the game, so flooding is not a common issue because of the high density of 'spell-lands'.
And regarding the Crusader v. Serra Avenger debate, I think the cards are actually very close in value, and that Mirran Crusader could actually work wonders for this deck instead of the Avengers. Certainly the Crusader is preferred to the Angel vs. a Tombstalker, but of course that is not all there is to this discussion. The difference in Mana actually somewhat favors the Crusader in my opinion, as you will usually be able to set up 1WW on turn 3 at the same ratio as WW on turn 4 (no vial). And because Crusader is a much stronger play on 3 than Avenger on 4, I would gladly take that trade. I am just not sure, that we can afford to lose a Vigilant flyer against something like Goblins, which I find is an increasingly difficult matchup if they pack enough artifact hate. And a 12-12 split on 2-drops and 3-drops is only a little worse than 16-8 split (with Avengers) in my opinion, although this is of course all on paper.
On a different note, I really do feel that with the printing of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, the format has become more hostile to D&T, as a lot of what was normally considered 'untouchable' in this deck (Thalia and Vial in particular) can now be dealt with by the Shaman's mana ability or the Decay's versatility, respectively. We have gone from being a favourite to an underdog in a lot of these matchups, I feel, and perhaps Mirran Crusader is a solution.
Went to a local 10 man tourny tonight. We usually have around 15 but it was a slow night. First time playing DnT. There is always a guy that plays burn and a guy that plays gobbos - hence the Kor and Chalice in in the SB. Here is the deck:
Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
1 Judge's Familiar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
Instants and Sorceries
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Sideboard
2 Judge's Familiar
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Kor
3 Cataclysm
1 Manriki
Round 1 - G1. This guy was a real dick. Never wanted to make small talk or discuss anything about the game. He plays a Painter, Tangle Wire, Jace, etc. Mid way through the game I'm smashing him with the Germ and starting to get my Mangara engine going. Out of the blue he does some weird Grindstone crap with the Painter and mills me. I told him "I haven't seen a deck like this" and he goes "No one has". Whatta douche. 0-1
G2. I finally get a Revoker and use it on his Welder. I Wasteland a couple lands and beat face with the Germ and two Moms. 1-1
G3. Slapsdown two Tangle Wires and a Painter along with various other crap. I'm holding a Cataclysm but get stuck with three and in play and a second Karakas in my hand that I can't play. He goes off and wins. Did I say this guy was a prick? 1-2.
Round 2 - G1. Nice kid. He goes off on turn one with a Lotus Petal, Stifle, and that Ggant 12/12 artifact guy. I Swords it and slowly beat him down with critters and usig Mangara to blow up his remaining lands. 1-0.
G2 - Again the kid drops the 12/12 guy on turn two. I go to Swords him and he counters it. He drop a Topor Orb and my Wisps become useless. :( 1-1.
G3 - Thalia, Port, and Mangara do their work I literally blew up 4 Islands with Mangara. :D 2-2.
Round 3 - Bye. :(
So in very limited testing against two a typical decks it did ok. One Plains away from going 2-0 most likely. It was strange but I never got to use Mom's ability, use the Judge, or use any Equipment other than Batterskull. Thalia and Mangara were my two MVPs in the games I won.
The guy that won, however, if my best friend who plays a weird Tezz Affinity with FOWs, Mox Opals, Thopters, Plating, Stoneforges, and Equipment. For fun we played four games and he won every game. I can't handle how fast he drops artifacts. Cataclysm should work but he just sits on a FOW waiting for it. Any idea what else I could do with his deck?