Against some decks, it's epic. Against others, not so much. To really abuse it, it's probably best to have a Vial out already. Vault isn't enough sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
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Against some decks, it's epic. Against others, not so much. To really abuse it, it's probably best to have a Vial out already. Vault isn't enough sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
No, you can't replace Silvergill, he is just too damn good in the worst matchups of merfolk. Heavy creature removal/control is always a difficult matchup for merfolk, but putting a 2/1 into play that replaces himself with another card is just disgusting since the opponent either gets bashed down (so you're ahead already) or wastes a removal on him (so you're still ahead already, assuming you don't get shit luck and draw into more landflood, which means he still helps you get out of the clumpy islands).
Sure there are times where you can't play him, but those times are few and far between. Without cantrips, you really do need more draw power than just standstill. And against burn, if you hit 3 of these guys I guaruntee you'll win. They can waste all the removal they want against him since he keeps netting you card advantage.
Silvergill Adept it is.
I guess we'll just have to wait for a better 2CC merfolk to show up
I agree for the most part here, though I think Silvergill isn't as stellar against burn as you make him out to be. Its their tempo and not CA that wins them games. Then again, cantripping into a force/daze/whatever is rather good against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
That being said, I think the whole question of what creatures are weak in the deck is a bad one. To me, the only creatures that are anywhere near questionable are Cursecatcher, Thrasher, and Sovereign. And even these are more a question of which to play (in the case of thrasher and sovereign) and what could possibly be better (in the case of cursecatcher). The other creatures I can't even see anything forseeably being printed that's better.
This deck has always been more of a question of what your spell package looks like. Stifles vs. Snares vs. More creatures. Bounce vs. Threads... Things like this are the more difficult/flexible choices. While I don't think the creature discussion should be put off the table permanently, as new cards will be printed. The fact is that, minus some flexibility, 18-22 creatures with some mix of Thrasher and Sovereign seems to be the obvious and unarguable (to most) way to go.
Firts of all, this deck really needs 12 lords. Before Sovereign came out, I even replaced Wake Thrashers with Vendilion Cliques or Kiras because Thrashers weren't doing enough. They are really good only in those matchups that we already win without them. But now that we have 12 lords, they are pretty much auto include for me, and so are the two other folks as a 4-off, which makes an even number of 20 creatures. 20 has always been enough for me and I really can't squeeze in more, and I really wouldn't even if there was space.
20 is the magic number in lands too. And when we have the ability to make goog use out of wasteland and mutavault, we really should. So they are both 4-offs. Islands wrap it up nicely. 8 colorless lands have almost never been an issue for me. Somewhere around 300-400 test games and 4 tourneys and the amount of games that I couldn't find islands, I can easily count with my fingers.
Standstill, FoW, Vial, Daze... all are automatic 4-offs for me. So that leaves me with 4 slots to play with. I have tested all kind of things from creatures to pells but the most usefull thing has definately been the soft removal that blue can offer: Bounce. I use Echoing Truth and I really think that this deck needs atleast 3 soft removal spells to handle troublesome permanents, even for one turn, because we can easily alpha strike in one turn if we have to. So 3 Echoing Truths for me it is. That leaves me with one slot, where I play a single Misdirection, which acts as the 5th FoW. The philisophy behind this is that Merfolk really wants to tap out on it's own turn so all the instant's basically need to be free. Echoing Truth isn't free, but it is many times played on your own turn to remove a blocker or troublesome permanent.
Sideboard is like this at the moment:
4 BEB
3 Jitte
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Misdirection
BEB were stifles before but stifle really doesn't fit in the play style of the deck. Misdirection is a house against red based decks... Before adding misdirection, I usually lost to GoySligh miserably...but now it is quite easy after boarding actually, so I like it really much.
Just felt like sharing my opinions because I've really thrown alot of time and effort in developing this deck.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but the following:
By your own admission, prior to Sovereign you were still playing 'folk and doing all right with Cliques or Kiras. This isn't so much as an argument *against* 4 lords, but I relaly don't think the "deck really needs 12 lords". There are other things that work in that slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
Standstill and FoW, definitely. I disagree about Daze however. The fact is that, a) Daze is poor on draw and b) Daze is poor without Vial. I mentioned earlier I didn't think Cursecatcher was a staple. If anything, I think Daze is less of one. Typically Cursecatcher is simply better than Daze, as Daze is dead in the lategame. Most of my builds now just drop Daze completely, and I'm certainly not playing more than a 3-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
I've become rather unattached to the bounce aspect as well. Sure, it's a general catch-all against annoying things you can't deal with otherwise, but then again, so are our counterspells. And counterspells don't (always) 0-1 us in terms of card advantage. I actually prefer something meta-specific in that slot. If I think my field has a lot of goyf, I'll run Threads. If I'm seeing overmuch burn, I'll run Misdirection. If goblins is running around, I'll go to a different tournament :-P. Basically, I play this as an early-on quick aggro deck, that can transform into a mid-late game card advantage/control deck. Bounce helps the first aspect of this a bit, but really hurts the last.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
This is an overstatement. 2 cards in your sideboard is not going to change your matchup from miserable to easy. Yes, Misdirection does help in this matchup quite a bit, but so do Threads and various other cards (Disrupt).Quote:
Originally Posted by Yan
I tried to specifically state that the deck became much better with more lords. And to state that I don't like Thrasher and I would play some other cards even if the Sovereign didn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by tivadar
That Daze argument made me think about it again and I'm really going concentrate on the issues stated when playing. Still, I wouldn't be dropping it completely because this deck needs those free spells and Daze is wonderfull in the early game. It is true that sometimes people tend to play over it but that means it is even better. They are wasteing their tempo by only quessing if you have Daze or not. Late game it is poor, but it is not often when this deck goes to late game, is it? But Daze usually is one the first cards to side out in many matchupps.
Those few are infact meta slots, but meta around here (Finland) is constantly shifting so Echoing Truth is kind of good against everything, the advantage it grants only need to last for one turn. SB offers help for more specific matchupps.
And it is probably overstating that simply puttin few Misdirections on the board will make your red matchups easy but it sertainly helps alot. Re-Directing their 'would-kill-my-lord-bolt' at their own lavamancer really is gamebreaking. And believe it or not, it really changes the matchupp when you have few Misdirections available. Rightly timed, it just wins the game ...with the help of other cards ofcourse.
Isn't the best answer to Zoo and other burn/aggro strategies just Tarmogoyf?
@Nightmare
You argue that Wake Thrasher blows, and I agree with your argument that he sucks when it matters, during your opponents turn. What Merfolk needs is a good defense against the fastsest growing DtB: Zoo. Goyf is that answer. I disagree with your theory that 12 lords will solve these problems. As the above post states, a well timed Lavamancer+ Burn spell targeting a lord is killer, a good Zoo player will always find a way to make that gamebreaking play.
Some people argue that Goyf is silly since he doesn't benefit from the Lord pumps but that doesn't matter since Goyf will almost always be bigger than your pumped creatures. When compared to Thrasher, the fact that Thrasher get pumped by lords is much less important than how Goyf is a 4/5 during your opponent's turns. He is also less of a keystone creature. Unlike a lord, if he is killed, there is no domino effect in which you can be 2/3 for 1'ed.
I know some people frown at splashing another color but so what, its easy to play around Wasteland and Stifle, especially if you pack stifle yourself. Some people are against using Goyf out of the principal of it. Also, Merfolk is the only deck that can pack both Vial and Goyf and I feel that that is an opportunity that is hard to pass up. Instant speed 4/5's seem good.
I do not understand this aversion to Goyf. Especially those that splash white for StP, I feel that Goyf is a much better splash. Why do you need Stp? To kill big creatures? We should be able to swarm them. To kill Lavamancers? There are better answers to a :r: 1/1. I don't understand.
I was wondering if I may be able to get some side boarding help. My play group consists of the following:
- U/W Landstill
- Ichorid (Without LED)
- Aggro Elves
- Reanimator
- Enchantress
- Pox
There are some random decks but those are the main ones that I play against.
My friend gave me 4 x Cosis Tricskter for free. Its like him saying "can u playtest this guy for me?"
Sell them. It would be cute with Path to Exile or other ways to make your opponent search/shuffle. If he got 2 counters, it might be worth playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DCTopTeam
Not that I would necessarily advocate all the following cards in the same sideboard, but depending on which you feel your worst match-ups are, think about the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
- U/W Landstill: Back to Basics, Pithing Needle, Jitte
- Ichorid (Without LED): Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Echoing Truth
- Aggro Elves: Hibernation, Jitte, Submerge
- Reanimator: Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, Echoing Truth, Misdirection, Divert (mostly as extra counters against theirs I would imagine, but also for the hilarious "re-target your Reanimate to my Cursecatcher.") (white splash would help in this match-up for removal like StP and/or Path)
- Enchantress: Echoing Truth, (white or green splash would also help a lot in this match-up for stuff like Serenity, Seal of Cleansing, Krosan Grip, etc.)
- Pox: I'm not gonna lie, I haven't tested against it, but I'd imagine Pox would be a pretty rough match-up, the more creature removal they run. Pithing Needle on their Man-Lands and Back to Basics might help some... Not sure.
Just getting started with the deck, can't find FoW anywhere here in Jersey. Are 2 Spell Snare and 2 Counterspell acceptable replacements?
Not really. Nothing is an acceptable replacement for fow. There's a reason every blue deck runs four; it's part of what makes Lue strategies so powerful in legacy. Just order the fows online if you have to.
There's a playset on ebay for $70 or 3 for $30 with comparable amounts of time left. the $30 dollar listing seems fishy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
As for the deck, what's the standard number of Stifles?
Just look through the thread man. This Merfolk thread seems to suffer what many other threads suffer. People post lists and ask advice on their specific builds and no actual discussion takes place. Browse the thread and come to your own conclusions. Threads should be for discussion on how to further the archetype as a whole. We should come together to test different card choices and splashes; it isn't a workshop for those inexperienced in the archetype.
Do your own research and don't clog up the forum with useless posts.
Being useful: There's so much discussion about Tarmogoyf as an answer to Tarmogoyf and aggro; aren't we in-color with Threads of Disloyalty? I don't see why you need to risk the consistency of the deck by using nonbasics to answer something that we already have answers to in our current color?Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
Or just run Spell Snare if it has you that worried.
Sure Threads is a good card but it folds to both Grip and Pridemage. Running Goyfs of your own doesn't only solve your Tarmogoyf problem but it stops Lavamancers, Nacatl's, Instigators and Lackeys, its a way to deal with Piledriver. Goyf absorbs Burn and Lavamacer, he is a stand alone threat. It improves our poor match-ups by so much. Threads and Spell snare do not stop those cards nearly as well Goyf.
Adding in 3 Tropical Islands and a handful of fetches is not that devastating. The deck already runs 8 nonbasics, just as much as CT. Putting in 3 Trops does not make you that much more susceptible to Wasteland. Just be good at magic and play around Wastes and Stifles. In this deck, you usually wont need Green mana for a Goyf until the mid-game. Also, keep in mind you run Aether Vial.
You can board in all of the Threads, Spell Snares, and Misdirections that you want but the fact remains that Tarmogoyf is the best solution. The pros of improving your worst match-ups are for more significant than the cons of adding non-basics.
I fear that Merfolk has been established as the budget deck. New players to Legacy pick it up because it is cheap and simple. The current meta-game is beginning to adapt to Merfolk, Zoo is running rampant and Goblins may be getting much more popular with the advent of Instigator. This deck needs to evolve in order to overcome these new obstacles.
I think people lack Stifle skills. I've never seen anyone Stifle a Piledriver or Lackey trigger in all of my Goblin testing. And I've won games on Stifling both of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
Also, Red for Lavamancer or Bolt seems like it'd be another possible splash if you're in a slightly less Goyfy meta (is that even a word, and even at that, is there such a thing?)
This is some good motherfucking horse sense, people. I've pondered the splashes quite a bit, and while I've been resistant on the whole "splash green for Tarmogoyf" thing just because it's probably the single piece of advice that gets given too much in Legacy, I'm beginning to get pretty attracted to the idea. I still test the white splash and generally like it, but white doesn't really bring any worthwhile creatures to this deck... And I think at the end of the day an under-costed beater like Goyf might be more valuable to us and fit in line with our strategy better than StP does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guevera59
It seems to me that the over-all Legacy meta is beginning to stabilize, and blue is becoming a bit less of a dominant force. Combo strategies like Storm and Dredge just got dealt a minor blow by the amount of decent hate cards that just got printed against them in Zendikar, but I don't think they're anywhere near down for the count yet. In order to remain successful, I think Merfolk needs to adapt strategies that improve the Aggro match-ups we're most likely to see.
I think the white splash pushes Merfolk more towards a control-oriented strategy, whereas the green splash lets us play more aggressively. It's not that one is inherently better than the other, but right now I'm more inclined to go in the aggressive direction.
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On another issue, I wanted to talk about our sideboard a bit.
I feel like there isn't really a "standard Merfolk sideboard" as much anymore as there was in the beginning of 2009. I wanted to talk about a few cards specifically, but also I wanted to invite people to discuss what they feel like our strongest sideboard options are.
*Kira, Great Glass-Spinner: Originally, I wasn't a big fan of Kira, because I found myself wanting to run Jitte (and obv they don't play well together)... And I'm beginning to come round again, away from Jitte and back towards Kira. Jitte feels like a win-more card in this deck to me, after testing it. In your worst match-ups, it wastes your tempo to play and equip it, and furthermore you don't have a guarantee of getting enough attacks in with an equipped creature, because they're likely to burn or remove your dude.
Testing the splashes a bit, I've found myself wanting to run stuff like Absolute Law or Steely Resolve, but I'm pretty sure Kira is stronger. Although she's a creature, her ability and the fact that she flies make her less likely to die, and she swings for 2. I could honestly even see main-decking her, depending on what my meta looked like, that's how much I'm liking Kira these days.
*Chalice of the Void: Although this is ostensibly a card for us to use against the Storm-combo-boogieman, I suspect it would be pretty good in other match-ups as well. What I'm getting at is that Zoo and Tempo Thresh run an obscene number of one-drops, and in general we run 8-11 (Cursecatcher, Vial, and Stifle if you're running it).
On the other hand, I'm not completely sold on Chalice, I haven't tested it enough. I think one question is "Is it better than Hydroblast against the Zoo match?" I'm not sure if it would be or not...
Also, Chalice is very much an early-game card. If I was going to sideboard it, I would run four copies, to be able to get it in my opening hand. Also I doubt I would use Stifle in my 75 if I was going to run Chalice.
I'm wondering if anyone has experiences they can share about running CotV in your sideboard?
*Misdirection: For that dude who was touting this as the "fifth maindeck copy of Force of Will" or something along those lines, I was wondering how often this really happens? I'm a tiny bit skeptical, but I could see myself cutting a copy of Daze for one main-deck Misdirection, because I'm actually a fan of well-justified one-of's... You know, like they run in Japan and whatnot.
Also, does anyone that runs Misdirection find the card disadvantage to be an issue? I'm pretty sure it's worth it for Force of Will, but I'm not entirely sure how I'd sideboard for matches where I wanted to bring in Misdi... Wondering if anyone has stories to share.
*About the Sideboard in General: What are the cards that people currently feel are too good not to run in our sideboard? For example, earlier this year when I was testing much more than I am now, I was pretty convinced that some number of Back to Basics, Relics of Progenitus, and Propagandas should go in every Merfolk sideboard I built... Now, I'm not so sure which our "all-star sideboard cards" are. I know I always want some graveyard hate, but that's probably just me being paranoid.
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One more issue: Besides Krosan Grip (sideboard) and Tarmogoyf (main-deck), is there anything else in green that's worthwhile for us?