Wasteland makes sure you can drop a standstill on an empty board against anything running manlands, since you both have mishra's factories that can beat the living snot out of their wussy manlands and wastelands that can just take them out for you.
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Wasteland makes sure you can drop a standstill on an empty board against anything running manlands, since you both have mishra's factories that can beat the living snot out of their wussy manlands and wastelands that can just take them out for you.
You mulligan hands with no colored mana about 99% of the time. You get these hands about 10% of the time. The odds on mulling to 6 without seeing a colored land are under 2%.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
The only mana situation that happens to me often enough to be an issue is trying to put together 2 white mana against real mana denial. Even then the decks that are trying to do this are mostly decks that I can live against with 1 white mana in play for quite a while.
Finally, if 16/23 is not working for you then go to 17/24 and add an extra Plains or on-color dual to the mix. This deck can run anywhere from 23 to 25 lands and do quite well. It's a meta choice basically as to how much land you run because the deck's effect will come out effectively anywhere in the 40% range.
This is how you win games against Merfolk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Edit. That and Spell Snares. Spell Snares are money against that deck.
I just officially cut standstill from my testing list. I'm looking forward to working on it over the weekend.
I tested the deck without Standstills... let's just say it can be very interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Has anyone thought of cutting the E. Plagues? In my experience, the tribal to worry about is Merfolk; unfortunately Plague isn't easy to use against them. Not only is it not easy to fetch for a swamp, you likely need to wait until at least turn 4, in which case they probably have at least 1 Lord effect out. They also use Echoing Truth or Wipe Away, and now more are splashing green for Krosan Grip.
I'm not as sold on Engineered Plague as I once was. Without it, Black is still likely the color to use, perhaps just for Extirpate alone.
Instead, perhaps using additional Paths, Negates, Pulses, Relic/Crypt, or even Counterbalance could now be options.
If you cut Standstill completely you're definitely changing the character of the deck a lot. No more explosive early starts off of a Mishra's, Wasteland and Standstill. There's also a lot of pressure on the rest of the deck to be highly efficient because there are no sudden card windfalls after you've gained tempo in the midgame either. Ancestral Visions is a pipedream in this deck because if they land Counterbalance you will never resolve it and they can land Counterbalance after you suspend it. Late game you still have Fact or Fiction but that's late game.
Allright, hereīs another short summary of a tournament I played.
This weekend I have the PLGSTW Legacy upcoming and because of that I decided to give some choices a chance to prove themselves.
This was the list, pretty close to Moss`:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Island (2)
3 [5E] Plains (1)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon <- Got screwed pretty often lately
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [B] Counterspell
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [TE] Humility
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [A] Wrath of God
3 [5E] Brainstorm <- The number still hurts my logic :S
1 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus <- Expected at least 20% Loam.
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile <- never get them when I board 3.
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MOR] Negate <- for testing
SB: 2 [TE] Perish
SB: 1 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red < last minute change
R1: bunchoflands.dec (43landbase but with Intuiton,Confidant and VIndicate)
G1: This was a epic fight. We traded removal for manlands, dust bowl activations for r.ports and combat steps against lifepoints. He vindicates my first Elspeth just when she was at 8 but I manage to remove his first loam with Relic and extirpate the second right away. After all, I have only 5 cards left, already used Elspeths ulitmate and tapped out every turn because of Tabernacle. My final "army" was Dragon,Clique and 7 Soldiers which was totally needed because of his 3 Maze of Iths. I win at 1 lifepoint with 3 cards left in the library :=)
1-0 1-0
R2: Dutch-Staxx
G1: I start with Top, he with a first turn Trinisphere. He fails at putting any pressure on the board and throws a Mishra into some swords. I drop Elspeth, remove Trinisphere+Mox via Return to Dust and nail his last lands with Dust Bowl. He conceeds:
+2 Negate
+1 Extirpate
+1 Crucible
+1 Relic
-2 WoG
-1 Humility
-2 Swords
G2: He gets off the gates with double Trinisphere. I go for EoT Fact into Standstill,CoW,Elspeth,Extirpate,DoJ. He gives me a pile with Crucible AND Elspeth which immediatly won the game after I countered both Oblivion Rings.
2-0 3-0
R3: RG Goyfsligh
G1: Since Iīm able to remove the first 2-3 creatures and find a Wish in time after then, I win easily.
+4 PtE
+1 E.Tutor
+1 CoP:Red
-1 Humility
-2 WoG
-2 DoJ
-1 X
G2: My opening seven had Tutor, basics and some brainstorms so I kept. I tutor for CoP in the face of Lavamancer and Goyf. In response to my Circle he burns me down to 8. Goyf beats me to 4 and I donīt have any answer in hand. But I rip path and send Goyf to Exile. The following Nacatl is answered by another topdecked (:P) Swords and from then on he is helpless against CoP. Interesting Sidenote: Had to Force an early Sulfuring Vortex pitching Cunning Wish. meh :/
3-0 5-0
R4: Merrows with b2b MD
G1: Allright, Iīve already written to much for such a small tournament. So long story short, he gets a slow start but with a strong midgame. He gets B2b and I might loose at some rate but since his manlands can attack only once under B2B I win at 1 life. Phew :>
+4 PtE
-2 C.Wish
-2 SS
G2: Crap Draw looses against lotsa creatures.
G3: I get ~5 Sword effects+some Explosives and Elspeth which is enough for his draw.
4-0 7-1
Picked my reward, Hellspark ELemental, and traded it immediatly for a cigarette.Nice.
Some conlclusions:
-Dragon as 61st card was awesome and has always done his job well
- CoP is awesome if you play against good opponents
- Didnīt got a chance to cast one Negate
- Fact is still a LOT better than Jace
so far,
NQN
cutting standstill is not that a bad idea. I really hate to be tapped out on turn two. The format is filled with two drop that we must answer (the most scary being counterbalance and dark confidant for this deck). Thus, swapping the standstill for another draw engine can make sense. I have tried accumulated knownledge, but it is slow without the intuition engine.
I've also tried ancestral vision, and i foud it even more clunky than standstill in this deck.
I'm at the moment playing more jace and more fact or fiction in this slot. It is kinda slow but still, it draw card like mad.
This is about what I've been running. 2 FOF, 2 Jace, 3 Brainstorm, 2 SDT for me. No vision. When I topdeck my draw I don't want to wait four more turns to draw cards. I've really been enjoying the early game card selection and late game super-heavy card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holo_rip
@Citrus God: What were your findings without standstill? If I remember correctly you still play it, why is that?
@ Plague: I've been considering cutting it for other solutions too. My first choice was to just outright change the splash color to support Pyroblast. Boarding in so much spot removal that doubles as 1 mana counters in counterwars seems pretty tech for that matchup. The manabase would have to be worked for a heavier splash though... 1 plateau, 3 volc perhaps.
Check these out (one and two) and let us all know what conclusions you draw from your testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I think this "Landstill" archetype is so flexible that you can come up with endless viable variants. I think every build should start with 4 FoW, 4 StP, 2 Elspeth, 2-3 Wrath of God (and 2-3 DoJ if you're playing Standstill). Almost everything else is a flex slot in my mind.
Oh Yeah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
This is also the reason for us to have 100+ pages of discussion.
I discovered it some months ago.
I was "studying" the sideboard, t understand what change, in which situations.
At the end, I 've found that there are just some cards that are never sided out.
Lands (and it's obvious), counters, bstorms, crucible, etutor
This mean, in my case, that I've 20 customizable cards --> 33% of the deck is "tunable"
WOW !!! :eek:
I really love this deck ! :wink:
@Engineered Plague,
I found this really useful in my metagame vs. Elves, Merfolk, & Goblins. I can usually force a concession out of Elves by dropping this card, I can stymy Goblins, and mixed results vs Merfolk. This card along with Humility is just plain sick however, and is definitly a highlight of my day when I pull it off.
However, the lack of a basic Swamp hurts against the Goblin matchup where Wasteland and Blood Moon (it's a screwy meta...) come in to punish bad mana bases.
I played in a tourney against SlighQuote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
A winning condition was the EPlague calling for Elemental !
No twice hellsparks, no Ball Lightnings !!!! 1x8 !!!!
It's good also against Ichorid!
Keep it in !
It does indeed have its moments..I'll probably cut it down to 2 or maybe even 1 as it can be tutored for if needed.
How often is E. Plague better than Propaganda?
Prop Pros:
Propaganda is on-color, pitches for Force, is usually GG against Ichorid rather than just annoying, makes opposing manlands awful and waylays Merfolk as effectively as E. Plague, if not better.
Prop Cons:
Prop can be hit by REB, is easier to recover from (e.g. Krosan Grip), and is generally a less permanent solution (it provides more of a tempo slowdown in the early-mid game to help you get to Wrath etc, rather than E. Plague which can be an anytime ball-buster)
Thoughts?
I suppose it really depends. You pretty much said it. Although I think the amount used is a factor. As a one of, then Prop is possibly better overall. 2+ and Plague is likely better for a more permanent solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
E. Plague is just pure better, but it does depend on your meta. With goblins around I love the plague, as it makes so many of his drops just useless. Lackey, Fanatic, Matron and War Marshall all die instantly. 16 Cards made useless to your one.
E. Plague can turn into silly card advantage while Prop. is more of a tempo play. If you see a lot of tribal play plague, but if you are facing things like Zoo, Thresh, Ichorid, ect Prop. is a better pick, for all the reasons you list.
In a blind Meta I would use plague. Goblins and Merfolk are everywhere.
Propaganda is an inherently flawed solution unless you have some way to keep the opponent from just continuing to drop lands and attack. Merfolk and Elves get shut down by it because they have no way to get rid of it easily and they really depend on mass attacks and over-run. Goblins and Zoo will just REB it and keep going a lot of the time so it doesn't represent much of a guarantee against them.
EP gives you a tangible benefit (-1 damage per attacker) as soon as it lands. This can easily walk you out into WoG territory and a reset. Propaganda on the other hand encourages the opponent not to over-extend, since excess creatures will just sit still anyway. You sweep them and they drop 3 creatures the next turn and the turn after are attacking for real damage again.
I used to love EP but with the advent of +1/+1 lords in goblins, elves, and merfolk, EP is not as game changing as it once was.
As Propaganda is inherently vulnerable to REB in Goblins and Zoo, wouldn't ghostly prison be a less vulnerable on color alternative?