Printable View
The fetch + massacre was mentioned for D&T, not for Delver. Don't look for definitive and easy answers for various scenarios. I feel that between CoV, boarded Grapeshot, Pyroblasts and 2cc Sweepers aka Wish into Massacre you should manage to fight back hatebears and the Patriot menaceQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I appreciate the advice, I admittedly dont have a ton of experience, so i'll keep my head up and see what I can figure out. I actually had a really drawn out, close match against patriot delver last night. i got the overall win, but if i had been more aware of massacre opportunities, maybe i couldve just crushed it, so i'll watch that and see what i can pick up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'd probably play the 7th discard over the 2nd C.Rit. that's so much mana 10 rituals + LED's + petals, looks liek you may get clogged on mana and not action. These are the worst times IMO. To me the beauty of TES lies in the knife's edge you run on to close out games. It is the tempo combo deck in that one small mistake on turn 1 will cost you the game in my mind. Like playing tempo ekeing out and capitlilzing on the small misplays/ small margins is where you will get games and really boost your win percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettF
I like the IT side but upon thinking about it some more having 10 action game one and then falling to 9 in g2, g3 is fine. and that line(BW>IT>AN) costs a bajillion mana (but i guess in this config it is very doable), Other than PiF lines how relevant is C.Rits threshold?
TL;DR: I'd rather have more disruption than mana.
I agree with what he said, but I'm more intested in knowing how good cabal rituals work out for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasDowd
The reason I play TES is so that I can just dump my hand and make goblins if I get the right read from my opponent and cabal ritual doesn't seem to fit too well into that plan.
Are there times where cabal ritual feels like an all-star and not just a 'win more' card in your configuration?
The cabal rituals open up a lot more late-game options for tutor chaining, PIF loops, and Burning for Infernal for AdNauseam. As a side effect of all those options becoming much better, you almost never need to grab diminishing returns. The OP list may be ideal for an open meta and jamming ETW on turn 1, but if you find yourself playing out the mid-game against blue decks a lot, the cabal rituals pick up some serious slack.
Royce and I played in a 142 man Legacy event yesterday. I finished 14th and he finished 4th, we both ran two Cabal Rituals with an Infernal in the SB, no Diminishing Returns.
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
I brought it up to Royce that I never once discarded a creature with the MD Thoughtseize. He runs Duress over them, I may follow suit and switch back. He opted to not run Massacre and run the second Chain of Vapor - Although, without Thoughtseize I think the Massacre gains more weight. The idea behind Cabal Ritual is that it provides enough mana to be able to Wish for Infernal for Ad Nauseam making Returns something of the past, it also makes our tertiary win condition, Past in Flames, a lot more reliable and robust. I was very happy with the list for the most part, I lost a round to Eric English with Food Chain that I should've won and then was defeated by an above average draw from Team America. It happens.
It sounds like focusing more on the potential of threshold and PiF makes you more grave-dependent, and one of the things I like about this deck in general is the ability to ignore such cards a lot of the time. Did you ever feel like the increases interaction with the graveyard was a liability? Also, did the reduced amount of discard spells ever present a challenge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Since no other manasources were taken out for the Cabal Rituals you're not really more graveyard depend then before. Sure if your only rituals are CRit you can get harmed by GY-hate though before you wouldn't have the mana to do anything so that point is mood.
At the end Cabal does the same withouthaving 7 cards in grave like a single rite of flame (+1mana). So its not a big problem.
The thing on going down in discard is what makes me doubt usualy the correct disruption number is 7 in all decks (magic number).
I think saying 7 is "correct" is an oversimplification. Sure, you're one discard spell lighter, which might lose you some games against combo or control, but you now have extra percentages against discard and in a weird way the extra mana spells can increase the percentage of those "belcher" hands for going off in the face of hatebears. the ability to power BBBBB out of a ritual can also lets you play around a few soft counters, which can be as good as a discard spell, in that it made the counter irrelevant. against RUG Delver, where you'd want discard for Stifle and get pressured on lands to the point where Cabal Ritual is unappealing in sequencing, for example, you can still just play Pyroblast instead postboard, which beats those cards youd want to discard, while buying time against Delver and splitting the disruption among 2 colors. trading points in matchups you feel arent as relevant to improve ones you feel are more relevant in the meta is just good strategic development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
one thing you could consider is another Thoughtseize in the sb, if you expect a lot of combo or hatebears and would really be missing the other mb discard. but there arent many other appealing cards to shave for the second cabal rit, imo. ponder is maybe the most expendable, and even then youd be just shaving psuedo business when the deck is now one business spell lighter already. i think the interesting interaction there is that you can side in the other infernal tutor then anyway, since that loss would be felt most against decks youd want to combo quickly against. the main point is that discard tends to not beat discard decks, whereas an improved PiF line does.
I think the efficacy of Thoughtseize vs Duress depends on the number of MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages you expect to face, I've played with both and generally prefer to be prepared for the worst case scenario i.e. I play Thoughtseize instead of Duress.
I agree with SBing an Infernal Tutor and I don't mind cutting the 7th disruption card, but I'm not certain you should cut Diminishing Returns or play Cabal Ritual over lands if you're trying to go to the late(r) game mainly because we don't have the same number of Fetchlands as ANT has in order to reach Threshold, the same number of Cabal Rituals in order to reach BBBBB.
Personally I'd rather fit every land and fetch land I can into the deck at this point, that's guaranteed consistency.
I haven't played this list, so I'll put my objections to 2 Volcanic 4 fetch in a deck with threshold cards aside and ask a question: How often do you use the sideboarded Infernal Tutor? Do you find that the CRits enable BW->IT->AdN or similar plays enough to cut a copy of the best business spell from your main?
I don't think Infernal Tutor is the best business spell in the MD, it's often the most redundant business spell in the MD if the game goes long(er) and you should be used to playing Infernal Tutor in the SB regardless because you SB it games 2/3 in almost every match up vs Islands. I find with the additional lands and shuffle effects in the deck ~9 business is about the right number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
I find I wish for it vs Miracles really often.
If you're that worried about those cards swap out the pair of Duress for the Pyroblasts and side in the Thoughtseize as well. I just haven't been using it as anything other than another Duress, simply no reason to lose life at this point - if the metagame switches back to more hatebears so will we.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I didn't miss Diminishing Returns at all, one thing Royce and I did notice was how much better Past in Flames was.
Don't be so aggressive! I still want Gemstone Mines, we need to be able to support our green cards out of the sideboard. Not to mention, Gemstone Mine does kill itself! In hands where I opened with both, I played Gemstone first and actively tapped it, even on my opponents' end steps for no reason just to get it in the graveyard faster.
Congratulation Royce and Bryant, nice to see that cabal ritual performed well - it was very obvious: who doesn't want to have more copies of black lotus in the deck.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Out of curiosity, did the lower amount of disruption ever make things more difficult or risky for you? Also, do you feel that the subtle shift to more mana cards, relative to business/disruption, makes sideboarding more awkward?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I didn't notice the lack of disruption, but I did notice more mana made plowing through soft counters MUCH easier. Sideboarding was a little awkward, mostly because I wasn't sure on what to do yet. I believe that in fast match-ups where we need protection we should be siding out Cabal Rituals, but in fast match-ups where we don't need it (Such as Elves/D&T) we board in the land and tutor instead. I'm still in the process of figuring it all out.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
The thing I thought would make siding tricky is that commonly you'd side a tutor out, and now thats already done, so it could get awkward there. I think I'd be most concerned about, say, a combo mirror where the one fewer discard spell might make it tough to fight them in the disruption exchanges. I'll try out this new build tonight for my stream and post how it plays through the matches, i might play with a 1-1 split of duress/thoughtseize, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
In the current metagame I don't see a reason to run Thoughtseize in the 75. Discarding was near never relevant in the recent weeks but life was. Switched to Duress/TherapyQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
i thought the split has some merit because of hitting clique/canonist and letting you swap the 1 duress for the sb thoughtseize to maintain 6 discards against D&T. still, i can understand the life to be important, especially with increased emphasis on Ad Nauseam. I'll go ahead with double Duress tonight then, and see how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I actually played almost the same deck yesterday -1 Chrome Mox +1 Ad Nauseam. (There's so much discard here that Chrome Mox can be a real liability. AN is fantastic off the top or a cantrip and it's much easier to cast than IT -> AN.) Went 3-1 losing to Miracles, beating Elves, Esper Blade, and Deathblade. I had a very very hard time sideboarding, too.
I'm most likely keeping 'Seize in my sideboard over Duress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
@Wonder- Worry about the combo mirror when you're the faster deck is a little weird, we don't need as much protection if we have increased speed. Not to mention, you can always side more in if need be.
mostly i worry because there are matchups like reanimator where im not the faster combo deck. and there are some occasions where combo matchups just turn into discard-fests and having less business and discard in exchange for mana, something we tend to have more of than other combo decks anyway, makes me feel like i could get caught with a lot of mana and then nothing to do with it. i'm going to test this config tonight though, and see how it feels, im pretty excited to try the new buildQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Then don't do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Something you need to accept in magic is that you're not always going to win, Reanimator is one of those match-ups where you're not favored. You have to ask yourself is it worth it to even try? Or am I better off increasing other match-ups? I believe that hedging percentages against other decks will do me better in the long run.
Sincé DRS came out and dredge and reanimator where not more tier 1. I havent played in sneak attack one card of grave hate. You are mostly going to lose to reanimator even siding 3 cages so you just improve your other mathups and if you play reanimator you dont care because you went x-1 in general.
the same to TES
I played in a small tourney this weekend. Didn't do too well but here's the list I ran:
4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
3 mistry rainforest
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 cabal therapy
3 duress
4 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
1 ad nauseum
1 empty the warrens
-----
1 empty the warrens
1 tendrils of agony
1 diminishing returns
1 grapeshot
1 thoughtseize
1 massacre
2 xantid swarm
2 abrupt decay
1 tropical island
2 pyroblast
2 chain of vapor
Round 1 vs mono black pox
Game1: Won the paper, rock, scissors. Opening hand was a snap keep. Gitaxian probe showed he has dark ritual + thoughtseize + hymn. Sad panda. Led off with a ponder to setup the turn 2 kill. 12 goblins get the job done even after that discard.
Game2: He gets thoughtseize -> hymn -> liliana. So it's time to grind. His only pressure is a mishra's factory and it gets me down pretty good. I am able to chain of vapor liliana before she hits ultimate, and then the turn before she gets to ultimate again, I ponder into LED+LED+blank. Thankfully I had burning wished for a past in flames 3 turns earlier (discarding it to liliana). I also had an infernal tutor and 2 burning wishes in the GY from earlier as well. He ultimates and I'm left with a single LED. Next turn I play LED and flashback Past in Flames -> dark rit x3 -> infernal tutor for LED, sac to make UUU. Ponder, ponder, brainstorm -> find a lotus petal for red, burning wish for tendrils. Loved that win.
Round 2 vs 12post
Game1: probe shows no disruption, so a bad ad nauseum into a swarm of goblins on turn 2 gets the job done.
Game2: another grindy match. I am able to shred his hand a bit to stop him from going ham early but it doesn't matter because I am unable to go off before prime time hits the board and gains him a ton of life and emrakul seals the deal.
Game3: I have to mull to 5 (sad panda #2). I make 10 goblins on my turn 2. seemed good enough considering the mull to 5*. Unfortunately he was able to lay a 2/2 blocker, gain just enough life to not die on turn 4 and then prime time stabilizes him. I blocked prime time with 6 goblins to trade, but the posts + eye of ugin are able to take over. Close game.
Round 3 vs Reanimator
Ugh.
Game1: Probe shows no disruption. So probe again, and fetch then Ad nauseum from 15 gets the job done.
Game2: I get xantid swarm out turn 1. But he is able to reanimate elesh norn to kill it and stop the goblin play. Griselbrand came out next turn and he draw a force off of the top 14 to stop me from comboing off (surprise).
Game3: I kinda feel bad about this one because he is a good fella. But we grind for a bit. I discard his business, he counters mine. He exhumes Elesh Norn again to stop the goblins, then I get a turn where I get 7 black mana and an LED then I cast ad nauseum holding an infernal tutor in hand.
He thinks about it out loud and says "well, I lose to ad nauseum, and I lose if you have tutor in hand, so I will force the AdN and hope you don't have it". I couldn't win on the spot there, but I figured I would as least go get a therapy and wreck his hand. So I cast infernal tutor and he scoops and extends the hand. I felt bad and I didn't want to make him feel worse so I just pointed out that if he had just gotten Iona for black those 2 games he would've won.
Round 4 vs death and taxes with blue
Game1: On the draw
Burning wish, infernal tutor, RoF, brainstorm, ponder, gemstone mine, gitaxian probe.
Would you have kept this hand?
I have kept similar hands before and drawn into mana so I decided to just get lucky. He leads off with land -> Mom. Probe shows me thalia, wasteland, plains, true-name, vendillion clique. and I draw a cabal therapy off of the probe. Now I really hate this situation. If I grab thalia, then my only land gets wasted. If I ponder to find a land then Thalia hits the board. So I end up casting ponder to set up a land. Ponder shows me a second burning wish, a city of brass and a brainstorm. I grab city and float brainstorm ontop of burning wish, but this next turns go thalia -> cannonist + wasteland -> then I blacked out a bit and don't remember. Scoop.
Game2: I setup a turn 2 play for 16 goblins. I don't have any hand disruption or probes so I have no idea what he has. His turn 2 he calmly throws out the singleton ratchet bomb from his sideboard. after thalia, spirit of the lab and cannonist get in there, it's all over but the crying.
So 2-2. Not great.
Not sure if I should have waiting a turn or 2 longer against 12post instead of making 10 goblins. I had a good idea 10 wouldn't have been enough, but after a mull to 5, it probably looked better than it actually was.
Any glaring mistakes that I didn't already point out I would love to hear what you think. Also curious to hear what you all would've done with that hand 1 against DnT. I feel like it was a keeper, but turned into a disaster really quick. I also knew he was playing DnT so that should factor into it as well. Maybe I should have just taken Thalia and risked it for the biscuit since he didn't have much else going on in that hand. I don't know. I hate getting wastelanded out.
The lack of disruption has me worried versus blue decks but I guess with PiF getting better you shore up some of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
mainly just worried due to the pretty much strictly blue metagame in my area. infested with bug and tons of CB.
One thing that isn't immediately obvious is that having more mana in the deck means you can afford to Wish for disruption more, which I did notice myself doing more frequently on Saturday.
It's unlikely that you don't find the red source in 11 cards but with double Wish in grave you can just sac the tutored LED for red and cast both Wish and Tendrils without that gambling (LED, PIF, DR, DR, DR, IT, LED(5b3r in pool), BW, BW, TOA for 20)Quote:
Originally Posted by d0nkey
Good catch, I didn't think about blanking a BW to hit the 10th spell. I really enjoy IT -> LED for UUU to cast cantrips out of past in flames, so I guess I had the tunnel vision goggles on for that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by akmalik
@ Game against D&T:
That's why hands with a single IMS suck: Thalia, Wasteland and Port take you out so quickly. I'm a bit surprised he maindecked Canonist. Did you know this? I don't think that discussing Therapy vs. Ponder has that much value, but in that situation you have to pick the Thalia and pray that he rather want to work towards the Clique. Thalia is more backbreaking than the Wasteland. This however should not distract from the fact that this hand was just bad against anything other than Miracles. You don't even have a fucking Chance to turn the infernal into value in a reasonable timeframe and FAR to few manasources to combo with Wish BEING ON THE DRAW against D&T.
I would have taken a mulligan here and if the hand wasn't explosive enough either possibly even one to 5 cards. A radical solution if your opponent does NOT KNOW what you are playing, but you can't find a decent starting grip even after 3 tries, is to just scoop the game 1 without playing a single card and profit from your Knowledge advantage in the first postboard game with your opponent being completely clueless, rather than playing out a game 1 which you can't win anyways while helping him with boarding by revealing you are on storm.
If you don't see the versions of Miracles with MD Vendilion Cliques and SB Meddling Mages then Duress is probably better than Thoughtseize vs the meta game, I think it really comes down to the state of Show&Tell and what hate people choose to SB against it because Meddling Mage is "splash hate" vs Storm as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I don't follow, I never suggested cutting Gemstone Mines? I just prefer having more lands over having more rituals, because it lets me mulligan if/when necessary. Either one takes you later into the game, fwiw.
I can't get behind cutting Diminishing Returns, I think you're going to regret it as soon as you run into Jund or Junk, there is no functional equivalent like there is for Ill Gotten Gains.
I may see those decks once an event, where I play against Delver variants 2-3 times an event - the weight isn't evenly distorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I misunderstood your suggestion, my issue with that is that more lands means slowing down. That's something I'm not too interested in, if I were, it would mean cutting Chrome Mox.
I'll keep a tally for times I've missed Returns, so far I've gone through an entire event and not wanted it. I didn't hear Royce say he wanted it either, but I could be wrong.
Hey all,
I have decided recently to begin my endeavors as a storm player and made the decision to go with TES. Right now I just feel that it is a stronger option than ANT being faster and has more win cons than 1.
I am putting together the list that was posted by Peter Raab that he won the foil deathrite shamans with. For reference here it is:
Business (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Silence
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Mana Sources (31)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Pyroblast
1 Tropical Island
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flame
1 Diminishing Returns
I just have a couple of questions about the deck I am hoping some more experienced players can enlighten me with:
1) When would you bring in Tropical Island and what would you sideout for it? (I am assuming you bring it in against taxing decks like delver, DnT, etc., but just want to confirm)
2) When does the hellbent trigger resolve on Infernal Tutor? Just to clarify, here is a specific scenario: If I cast Ad Nauseam, and I get a bunch of cards in my hand (say 10 randoms, 2 LEDs, 1 Lotus Petal, 1 Infernal Tutor). I then play LEDs + Petal, cast infernal tutor (maintaining priority) sacrifice LEDs, pitch my hand due to LED. At this point, does Infernal tutor become demonic tutor?
Thanks,
Bryan
1) For a Chrome Mox, usually.
2) It's not a trigger. You either are hellbent, or you are not. If you are, it's a Demonic Tutor. If you are not, it just gets you an additional copy of one of the cards you have in hand. Which actually is pretty useful every now and then. So you cast Infernal, in response to that (KEEP PRIORITY!!!) you sac the LEDs. That makes you hellbent when Infernal resolves. No cards in hand to copy, so you get what you want. It works just like you said.
...except that you need 2 mana to cast Infernal as LEDs can't pay for it. The example given does not properly workQuote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Heared of that oneQuote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Understood, I was just trying to create a scenario to clarify what happens with Infernal tutor post casting...so lets assume the magic gods granted me 2 mana that casted the infernal tutor on my behalf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
No big deal. Just wanted to clarify. asthereal said most about the interaction.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
A minor remark: Don't board out the Mox for the Tropical against Death & Taxes but rather a Ponder as it is a slow card by nature and you want to explode against D&T asap aka needing the Chrome Mox to get mana on the table quickly. Aside from that, the lists isn't really up to date anymore as it is from december
Gotcha, I really liked the fact you mentioned it was for an open field. Do you have any suggestions on what to make for a 75?Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I'm not sure if this question is asked in regards to the specific recent changes, as the current iteration has cut the Silences and the Cities of Brass for more Fetches and Discard which saw a lot of discussion in this thread lately, or if you had something else in mind. There are several directions in discussion atmQuote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
A reminder: Bryant has overhauled the OP