Did you mean "it's only one, dude"? This thread alone has multiple dudes using Daze so I'll assume this is what you meant. Curious if you are indeed including a single Daze in your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
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Did you mean "it's only one, dude"? This thread alone has multiple dudes using Daze so I'll assume this is what you meant. Curious if you are indeed including a single Daze in your list.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
No, I know how to use a comma.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
I guess you missed the word "maindeck".
I assumed you did and it was a typo. I count at least 2 who play maindeck Daze and then Nevilshute just posted his league recording, but this was after your post. I was more curious if you personally were including any Daze in your 75 or if I misread one of your previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Ah ok, no problem. I missed the second one and yes, Nevilshute, well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
Yes, I have been playing 3 of them in the SB for some time now and I had great results against DnT. I couldn't really manage to gain advantage with them against Eldrazi and Thalia Stompy though. (I think I wrote something a couple of pages ago but not sure.)
On the other hand, I don't think it's a good maindeck option.
I dunno; maybe Daze is good because of the curveball effect. I certainly wouldn't have expected to see it a year ago, and given how static the lists tend to be (there's mainboard variance of, maybe, five cards between most AnT lists over the past year or two), there's a good chance that potential opponents haven't really caught on.
I just feel like there are a lot of problems with Daze; it's no good if the opponent can afford to throw down an extra buck (Eldrazi lists with Spirit Guides [these may be obsolete], almost any deck after turn 2-3, Ritual-heavy builds like the mirror match or Belcher), it doesn't stop stuff that comes down on our turn zero (granted, nothing else does but Extraction), and it feels like an awkward thing to have in hand if we're trying to combo. The fact that we can't afford to get stuck with a land in hand [EDIT: along with Infernal, obviously] if we don't have LED means that it actually slows us down after a certain point, because we either need to hardcast Daze (perhaps against our own stuff) or find another way to get rid of the land if we're freecasting. I find that LEDs are pretty stressed already, just because we can only run four, and I'm not sure it'd be optimal to put further stress on them.
It does seem like a way to get around shenanigans like Mother of Runes, but I feel like in hatebear matchups, we're going to have problems with Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls if we're relying on countermagic.
Nevilshute, looking forward to the vid(s?) you posted! Maybe I'll find some of my concerns allayed therein.
I'm not convinced and am back on no Dazes... I feel like as long as it is somewhat unexpected people will continue to have a lot of feel-good blow-outs against unsuspecting opponents, but I feel it adds inconsistency by the very high-ceiling / low-floor nature of the card itself. Meh I don't know. I don't think it fundamentally changes any matchups - even if looking at it at its most effective. I mean so we get to daze a chalice on the... play? Okay great. We are still heavily unfavored against Eldrazi. Okay so we get to daze a Thalia on the draw or play... great except we are already favorites against D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Like I said, if you end up Dazing something, it would have to be something that would put you in a worse situation than having a land in hand that you can't play. Something like a Thalia, a Chalice or something that would kill you outright. The probability for Eldrazi to SSG through a Daze is really small. They have to have Tomb, SSG, and the card that you want to Daze. I also think we are heavily favored against any deck on Turns 2-3, so just getting to that position by having Daze is already an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
I'm honestly not convinced either. It hasn't been really good, but it also hasn't been bad. I'm just playing it to find situations where it will actually be bad or worse than the cards that I cut for it, and so far I haven't found many. I haven't even blown out anyone with it yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I went 1-2 in my weekly last night on the 3 Daze list, though. My draws were hilariously bad.
I mulled to 5 both games in R1 against this budget delver deck. One of the mulled hands had cantrips, Daze and no lands, but even if the Daze had been a land it would have been Bayou. Still would have tossed that. G2 I think I could have played it better. Had rituals and Tendrils in hand.
R2 was a bye. (We only had 7 players.)
R3 I won against zoo pretty easily. Mulled to 5 again, and 6 in one game.
R4
G1 I played Ad Nauseam T1 against Mono R Sneak, fizzled, and died to his T2 sneak.
G2 I T3 PIF him through blood moon
G3 I Ad Nauseamed T2 and died to it. Ugh!
Mulliganed in every game I played. Wow. Only shipped back one hand with Daze, though, so I don't think it's that.
I took my ANT list to the local last night for legacy. I'm not an experienced ANT player, but I've been playing legacy for years.
My build is budget compared to the usual, but I run Shock lands instead of true duals, and I'm down on a few fetches, but otherwise my list is fairly typical.
I went 3-2, being beaten by Bw Pox, Grixis Tempo. Both times discard killed my hand before I could do anything meaningful.
How do you guys play out against heavy discard? Is it a case of just going for it?
It really depends on what exactly "just going for it" means. In general Past in Flames is your best friend against heavy discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
And sensei's divining top is your second best friend :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
@Nevilshute and the Daze team:
I saw your videos (not all, just 3 of them) and daze was almost enver relevant. I never saw the Gotcha Daze and that was sad. I will keep looking on the card, but from what I see and reas here I have never seen that the card shines a lot. Its like ok, but no one writes repeately that he won many ganes just because of daze. Thats sad and makes me not think is a really good plan.
@ togores
Well i do but you have to test the card by yourself;)
I dont have foil Dazes to test them D:
Also just what I see, I will find time to test them, but runing 14 lands...
I win a lot of games because of Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
I win a lot of games because of Daze.
I win a lot of games because of Daze.
There you have it.
:P
I will try a daze list in a tournament this Sunday, I think we'll have around more or less 60 players so it's a good moment to test the deck.
Also if I'm not good :laugh:
I will keep you updated, trying to write down a good report.
@togores
I'm glad that i have 3 (4)foil daze to test :P
Well today i played a trial at the eternal weekend.
Round 1: Fast reanimator 0:2
2 times mull to 5 and he had two times first turn reanimate first turn into win..
Round 2: Burg delver 2:0
2 times pif loop gets it.
Round 3: Grixis Delver 2:0
One time pif loop and one time empty gets it.
Round 4: Eldrazi 2:1 never had daze and i side them out after game 1 anyway..
G1 i played probe and saw the chalice so i played my 2 leds and a island.. he played chalice on 1 then next turn tutor into ad nauseam into win
G2 was really close i played a therapy blind on him cause he played tomb and said go, so i was naming tough knot seer and then he discarded 2.. played some small creautes and i had 2 decays anyway but after i played 3 decays i played a ponder and had to shuffle.Sadly i draw 3 lands in a row..
G3 Lucky me i had first turn ad nauseam into discard then next turn win :)
Now sad part of the story..
0:2 UB Reanimator
G1: island go he fetch and petal and said go..
I played a drawet duress then i saw he could go off first turn griselbrand with fow in hand but without pitch..
He didn't so i discard him his reanimate..he played entomb on grisel and then he topdecked reanimate...yeaah!
G2: keept a hand where i had to play ponder first..
The hand was cool cause of the possible pif protection with tendrils kill..so i draw a bs. He goeff first turn into iona and no echoing truth for me after cantriping..
:(
Round 6: 1:2 Grixis delver
Hard games maybe i could win the last with empty but i not remember exactly if i had it in a ponder cause i take the pif for a duress protection pif kill but had to fetch empty away..then i saw his hand like pyroblast, daze, fow,surgical and a active shaman.. so i tried a little bit to drew his counter but had to say go..sadly he drew that second cabal therapy:(
Anyway the reanimator games with 4 time first turn reanimate don't feel like games but can happen...also i don't played surgical in sb and it's anyway not needed against the UB List;)
Daze was never relevant this time..also not good or bad..
Lucky i have 1 bye for tomorrow of a other trial in switzerland:)
Greets Pascal
Just wasted some money on a grim tutor (realized I overpaid by $10-20). Anyone still running one of these? I think I like it over DP for a few reasons. Also have been toying with some bad ideas such as final fortune (to get to that critical turn 3 before too much hate comes down), and nevinyrral's disk, but nothing really breaking the format yet.
PS- if anyone has any nice grim tutor alters I am looking for some inspiration on that front too.
6-0ed the Eternal weekend trial 1
2-1 burg
2-0 GR Lands
2-0 Foodchain
2-0 TA
2-1 mirror
2-1 cotv slivers
so the streak lives on, hopefully my luck could last one more day...
//GT- I play it, CT usually does too; BB is enough imo
Nice results slosh!
Maybe we see us tomorrow:)
I don't saw you:(
You can see mine in the pimp thread. Not sure if mine will inspire you but I like it. You can also view it on Eric Klug's facebook page to see a high-res photo. I also play GT, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I'm on one Grim. Pretty sure Wilson and co. are still on two
Well today i had one of my badest tournaments with storm ever..sadly not much to say after a 2:0 start i lost to the new T1 Deck Sliver with chalice and thalia Main..
Also i lost 1-2 to the DnT guy who top 8ed even after he FORGET to play thalia after he topdecket it on turn 2..
So the other games , i get flooded two times..
At least 5:4 with a bye..
+No missplays of mine
+I saw the badest missplay ever
+meat jamie and slosh!
+was a funny tournament just the air was to heavy and hot..
-Slivers are too broken
For the Daze Team:
Daze is ok, give it a try but it's not good or bad it allows you to play diffrents routs. I will cut it and go back to the rain of filth, top and preordain;)
Greets Pascal
Somewhat mediocre tournament for me als well. 4-2 trial and 6-3 main event (played chalice decks 5 times in the main..). Nice to meet you too!
terrible showing for me, stopped at 27, went 4-0 -> 5-4Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
2x bye
2-1 burg
2-1 grixis
1-2 miracles feature match, g2 mana screwed, g3 I was too passive, did not see discard spell till the ultimate turn
2-0 infect
0-2 Team America - I gave him g1 by terrible misplay, also misplayed g2, tournament basically ended for me there since then it was a comedy
0-2 Miracles
0-2 UR delver
As I wrote, here is the report with md daze. 56 players, 6 rounds.
2 pif, 14 lands, 3 daze, 1 preordain, 1 tendrils, no sensei, no rain of filth.
1) ELDRAZI POST, unknow opponent. I start with 2 daze in my hand and no other relevant cards, quick mulligan. On the play, gitaxian probe. I see the hell on earth: ancient tomb, voltaic key, thought not seer, grim monolit, eldrazi temple and something else...... this is enough anyway, turn 1 TNS stops my game and kill me easly.
g2 cantrip, pass..............ancient tomb, grim monolith, voltaic key, trinisphere. I never see the third land to cast decay and gg.
0/1 0-2
2) WHITE ELDRAZI, unknow opponent. The judge arrives, there is an error on my list.......game loss -_-. I start g2 on the play, island pass (daze in hand). He plays ancient tomb, thorn of ametist. DAZE!!! (brainstorm first) On my turn nauseam, but I cannot win: pass turn. Here a relevant thing: nausea revealed a daze, in his hand there is a cavern of soul, a thought not seer, a reshaper, and eldrazi temple. He cannot cast TNS because it will be daze, so he can only play reshaper, letting me win on next turn.
g3 I win but I don't remember exacalty, on my notes I see "echoing" but honestly I don't remember what happened :\
1/1 2-3
3) JUND, unknow opponent. g1 I keep a greedy hand......no black mana, just a volcanic, ponder, brainstorm, petal, gitaxian, infernal. Here maybe I make a mistake: with petal on the field I'm tapped out, he fires an hymn to tourach, I sacrifice petal to play brainstorm and hide business. But I will never see black mana and die to other discard, shaman and tarmo.
g2 flooded, cantrips see only mana or land, the only good thing I see is a pif, discarded into surgical, game.
1/2 2-5
4) GOBLIN, friend of mine.... g1 storm on turn 2, no problem. g2 he start with vial, after a probe I see a canonist.....I have on a decay in hand; he has white mana to cast canonist without vial, so I decided to not decay vial and keep it for canonist when I start storming. But he puts tons of goblin on the field and I cannot reach turn 4............. g3 very similiar, he starts with a lackey and the pressure is very high, with a thalia on board. Luckly I have a decay, thalia dead eot and storm on turn 4.
2/2 4-6
5) opponent not present :\
3/2 6-6
6) BELCHER, I know him. Quick games.......g1 he puts a belcher on turn 2, with a LED already on the board. I daze the belcher, he pays sacrificing led. Ok, at least I have some more turns (he has a mox and a land on the field). On my turn I cannot storm, pass, he draws mana and wins.
g2 he mulligans to five, I have a better hand and win with no problem. g3 is more "grindy", he has tons of mana on the field but he doesn't find business, I keep cantripping every turn, at the end I find the wincon befor him and win.
4/2 8-7
conclusion:
did I miss the 15th land? No.
did I miss sensei? I don't know, I don't think because every matchup was very fast, sensei wouldn't helped so much.
did I found daze useful? well, they made me win a game. Sometime I saw them during cantripping and I wished they were something different...... revealing them with nausea is preatty bad, both for damage and showing to your opponent this card (a part of his power, in this deck at least, is that is not foreseen).
Maybe I will remove daze, but in general I found that 6 discards are not enough. I feel the need to stop my opponent's plan somehow.....fair decks are gone, we cannot seat and build our hand to turn 3/4, there is always a great menace before it. Maybe I will add an inquisition of kozilek.......keep on brainSTORMING................ :laugh:
Hello!
Today I played here in spain a 170~ players event. And got all my card signed by John avon (his was the rrason I disnt go to the Ew).
Played my gp list 1-1
Also be aware in the report that 95% of the players nows what I play ( dosnt matter, still destroy them)
R1 ant 2-1
I have no discard and I go for a nauseam t3 knowing im was gonna loose on the next turn for sure. I reveal no petals to start up or the pif to discard with the 2 led I got. I got killed next turn.
G2 I nauseam and kill him. Now with mana up.
G3 I duress, and he has a strong hand. Then he ponders, I was gonna therapy his nauseam but he pondered and didnt shufflw but got a sexond cabal ritual thinking I was gonna name nauseam. But I saw double cabal ritual and his hand got shreded.
After the game he told me he was plays 75 same cards as my gp deck. So it was a 100% mirror xD
R2 miracles, 0-2
Best player in the event, miracles expert and team mate. Was also on the PT last week with me. Hes also the luckiest person I know.
G1 I start but his hand is: island, volc, plains, scm, fow, bs and balance. I have t2 kill with protecction but I have to draw a castable card off ponder to get hellvent. I draw a second infernal. Play duress. He brainstorms take fow and he plays balance. The card on his top next turn is sensei. Then he draws another brainstorm and I try to grind him out but im not able.
G2 the game goes long. I want to go for it when Im at 3 from a clicke. I can beat fluster but he fetchs and finds a clicke with top to get rid of my natural tendrills...
as I said, luckiest guy in the room always (and I play a lot with him).
R3 canadian 2-0
He know what I play and keeps a 7 thats mull to 3.
2 land 2 mungo 1 bolt 1 delver 1 goyf and draws another delver.
I see this and just kill him
G2 I see his hand of goyf, waste, fetch, stifle, snare 2 ponder.
I have 3 lands. Empty, discard and a ritual and a blue card.
I just try to timewalk him and play fetch go. He bites it. And end of my t2 he wastes my fetch and Stifles it. He says it probably its a bad play. I say its and awfull play (his 3rd legacy event).
2 turns after he taps for goyf and dies to 22 goblins + 12 drills.
R4 ??? You will see latter
He starts on a mull and says bloodstained mire go. This can be: burn, reanimator or jund. I have a storng hand and brainstorm t1. Find petal and ritual and kill him.
I dont know what hes playing and so I SB like burn with eidolon removal and more toa. Because its the worst scenario I can expect. Reanimator is the hell of a matchup and more drills also can beat them, and jund is like the easy matchup.
What against would you have sided? Write it in coments.
I also thought that if he knowd what Im playing he has t2 eidolon he donst want to let me know what he plays because I would therapy eidolon away. So he was just gonna bolt eot into eidolon.
G2 he mulls to 4 or 5. He skries to the top. He finaly reveals what he plays and it was jund. He starts t1 seize, t2 goyf, I see his hand with surgical. T4 he plays a drs and I win by eot playing a nauseam.
R5 ??? 2-x
I dont remeber this round (sorry). I won and I think it was another jund opponent. Where I did 2 eot nauseams. Into kill.
R6 UR Delver 2-0
G1 he keeps double delver with 2 brainstorm and I kill him with duress backup.
G2 He sees my hand and didnt force a ritual when he could time walk me and try to hit another counter while hitting with 2 delvers. In a 2 turn clock. And then I dures him and win. While he knew he was dead if the ritual resolves because I was bottleneck on black.
R7 omniscense 2-0
Well timed discard + flusterstorm and infernal discarting pif with led into duress get me the wins in 2 grindy rounds.
R8 taxes 2-1
I have to play because there is like a 40% chance that Im out with drawing. I win the roll and im quite confident. Winning the roll is the most important thing in this matchup.
G1 I lill him t2
G2 I have, island, usea, ponder, bs, bs, gitax and therapy. Its not broken but I have a plan vs his hatebear.
He played mom t1 and reveals: thalia, spirit of the laverint, revoker. I discard thalia. He draws and plays canonist. I loose a few turns aftee.
G3 I obv get to kill him t2 like its written in the books of how to master this matchup :D
Top 8 miracles 1-2
The guy who defeat me before is also top 8 playing vs ant. But not me.
This is another teamate on it.
He plays a strongh version with moat, spell pierces and ruination md + 2 in the side (so usualy the grinding mode g2 is not sooo good).
G1 we dance a bit, I discard a balance, but cant kill him. I play a pif he has to force and ends up with jace and balance.
I go off and He has 1 blue mana 1 fetch and counterspell in hand. + the card he put on top.
I have like 3 petal, cabal ritual, gitaxian and lands. I expect hin a cmc 1 on top.
Force him to cast counter on pif with fetching and he has a moat on top. Thats justs makes me 1 storm short of killing him with my nautural tendrills in hand. And I die.
G2 I grind him out and win letting him start.
G3 he doubts and lets me start.
I have to mull a no lander hand.
My hand is:
Usea, duress, pif, toa, led, gp.
I skry to the bottom.
And play usea pass.
I gp t2 and see balance and so. I duress the balance. I drew led and toa the last 2 card. I dont draw lands or cantrips and he makes his landrops. There is one turn he taps out but I know he has pierce and Im 1 mana short of killing him.
End up loosing the top 8 round.
Great event and almost smoth play from me. This makes me feel confident for GP Chiba next month!
Thanks for reading!
no eldrazi in Spain? :laugh: lucky you, it seems a good place to live in ahahahahahahhaha
There where a few. BUT not much more than other decks like shardless or miracles.
yesterday I played with some miracle players.....I wanted to test the grinding station mode, and I felt very bad, when I won was mainly for luck. A few question for the experts.....first of all, let me know if I understood well: the main purpose for grinding station is to accumulate cards in hand and shot several tendrils in a row, overwhelming opponent with menaces/spells, ok?
1) do you shot non lethal tendrils? Basically all the players I met had surgical post side, I died once because I casted a non lethal tendril.....but anyway I was dead some turns after for the mentor's race
2) Do you shot discards heavily on turn 1/2? I always had few cards in hand after the first turns, it was difficult to me to make a good storm chain. But I don't want abolutely that counterbalance hit the field.....maybe another strategy is to let the CB enters and keep cantripping to find a decay, but it's risky with CB on the field, also without sensei opponent has brainstorm and blind flip.
3) krosan grip: if sensei and CB are both on the field, what do you destroy? no jace for them, just sensei and CB. I think is better to destroy CB, to let our cantrips go, am I right?
4) what are good alternatives to grinding mode against miracle? I'd like to try else, also because miracle takes a lot of space in my side just for it (I already cut the 4th decay because basically it's used only for miracle.....2 krosan grips also only for miracle.....the same for 2 tendrils......). Dark confidant? the "standard intro pack" with xantid swarm (please no, they are very bad.....)?
thanks for the anwers!
unfortunately you have to count with SE now which makes things more riskyQuote:
Originally Posted by Morden
1, No, unless it's simply a result of a kill attempt
2, not heavily but I do more than others... it depends on contents of your hand
3, depends on contents of your hand and other info
4, Multi EtW - they have a habit of having ~3 answers so it's quite risky but you can just not care and hope no. EtW> no. of answers but they have superior lategame filtering // light side and hope to win asap TES style // hybrid - EtW&ToA // creatures - much worse than EtW imo // even heavier grind with permanents like Carpet of Flowers or City of Solitude // DD& Shelldock which requires even more commitment and doesn't line up well againt Terminus
multi ToA isn't just for Miracles, AD is also multipurpose card, in which areas do you think your SB is lacking?
hi Slosh!
I don't think my sb is lacking, but I feel is to heavy on responses to miracle
1 sensei
3 decay
2 krosan
2 echoing
2 tendrils
2 fluster
1 xantid
1 empty
1 massacre
Removing the krosan for example will free 2 slots. 1 tendrils is enough probably if you are not playing grinding mode, and we are at 3 free slot. A lot of card are nice sb cards, like carpet as you mention that can be used for miracle and other decks, hurkyl for heavy eldrazi-land meta, confidant I think it's nice against miracle and shardless because these matchups include sensei also and you can set your revealed card, etc etc etc.....
What do you mean with "DD&shelldock"?
That's the spicy plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morden
http://a4.res.cloudinary.com/csicdn/...l/Doomsday.jpg
https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/...5BLRW%255D.jpg
http://a5.res.cloudinary.com/csicdn/...ons%20Torn.jpg
loooool please no, I'm bad at playing grinding station, don't tell me to play doomsday XD
At least in my sb there is no card that is just for one matchup...
2 tendrills: burn, blade, canadian, miracles and some others
4 decay: 3 is vs a lot of matchups but the 4th is for lands and miracles
2 grip: miracles and cloudpost, also sometimes vs omnitell or whatever I feel right
2 fluser: miracles, hymn decks, combo, sometimes tempo, sometimes other decks
1 etw: miracles, thalia decks, eldrazi, grixis, canadian sometimes
1 top: miracles, shardless, blade
1 xantid: miracles, show and tell, manaless dredge, reanimator
2 echoing: cloudpost, thalia decks, eldrazi, belcher, burn
It was something some of us were playing last year against Miracles. You basically build some kind of a Shelldock>Emrakul pile depending on the game stateQuote:
Originally Posted by Morden
and try to win it quick and dirty. You only have to cast one single cc3 spell that you can easily power out with a turn1 Dark Ritual. I wouldn't play it at the
end of 2016 though.
I'm surprised you list Empty for Miracles - maybe I'm just too gun-shy, but I never bring it in for fear of getting terminused/staticastered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
How many games would you estimate you win against them with the little green men? Should I be more aggressive with it? I feel as though if I want to go fast against them, I'd just as soon Ad Nauseam, and you can do an AdN on their turn to force some interaction or load up before your turn (though I've done this very few times, admittedly).
I've won plenty of games vs miracles by grinding them out with empty. I play 1 empty main and 2 in the board with an additional tendrils, and it's been the most effective thing for me personally at combating miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
your choices are correct, absolutely. My point was the odds of finding a particular matchup: yes, grip is useful against miracle and cloudpost.......how many cloudpost did you face last months? that's why for example, speaking about grips, I'd replace them with confidant, that helps also against bug/jund/discard decks, much more popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Same for the 4th decay: I rarely face a land player in a tournament, never 2 of them.
basically all the miracle players I know/I faced bring out 4 terminus g2 and don't bring in staticaster, it can be a dead card. So going for goblins it's not a bad idea generally. G3 is more complicated, changes from situation to situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut