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Played in a small 4 round with r/w yesterday.
Round 1: Punishing Jund: 1-1 Draw
Round 2: Four Horsemen sideboard into Show and Tell: 2-1 Win.
Round 3: Elves: 2-1 Win
Round 4: Dredge 1-2 Loss (In game 3 with him on the play he hit me for exactly 20 on turn 2 :cry:)
The deck I played is posted in my signature but it's pretty much Bahra's with Mangara and a worse sideboard. I need something to replace the SoLaS, any ideas?
Interesting D&T in 11th place at an SCG IQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=88270).
22 land, the full 4 Karakas, 3 Mangara of Corondor (28 creatures) and no Sword of Fire and Ice in the main is certainly a shift from the majority of recently placing lists.
This list and some other discussion recently makes me wonder if a full on tax environment (4 Thalia 4 Wingmare, possibly some number of Phantasmal Image?) might work well with Mangara and Fiend Hunter as removal rather than StP (probably would want to run some Cavern of Souls on Human).
It can exist but with few condition:
1. Opponent doesn't start with Delver, counter vial, then waste your land.
2. Opponent doesn't play Jund and have dark confidants.
3. Opponent doesn't play MUD and just played turn 1 Metalworker.
Those conditions aren't so common in world of DTT, where most decks abandon wasteland just to play more cantrips / DTT.
Anyway after testing I can say that Fiend Hunter is turn faster then Mangara. Sure Mangara has more application in taxing but this turn can change a lot.
About Phantasmal Image - it's very good card which is scalable on your skill vs opponent skill. Winning vs elves after he tried to hoof me (Flicker vialed to break the math, and block with BSkull), then cast Image coping Hoof, for Lethal was really hilarious. After that I realized that If opponent use his Symbiote better (not to block but to remove hoof in resp to etb trigger) that would change all game.
Hoof isn't an elf, so there's no way he could bounce it with symbiote...
..sorry if I wasn't write it enough easy:
Opponent bounce some random elf to untap his hoof to block my weenies boosted by Phantasmal Image (Hoof), instead of answer etb which Phantasmal create to target it with Symbiote.
Played the Richmond Premier IQ with the green splash..... I feel like a have been trolled. The green splash did little to nothing and sometimes less. I will not be playing the green splash again.
I still don't understand... Target what in response to the image's etb trigger? The hoof? Isn't that what he did anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
I guess I should have qualified this with some statement of "I think running more 3 cmc creatures looks really slow but..." ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
I think what's being said is that when Fatal cast Phantasmal Image copying Craterhoof Behemoth his elves opponent responded to the +X/+X trigger by using Symbiote to untap Image triggering it to sac and the Behemoth trigger then resolves for +X-1/+X-1, where instead if they'd used Symbiote to untap Craterhoof as a blocker it might have been better... I fail to see how though.
@C2232
So what happened?
What decks did you play?
What was your list?
yeah sorry but not really in the mood to give a huge tourny report on it.... i ended up losing to the jeskai deck that won, lands, and goblins.... the jeskai guy was just on a heater though the teegs are pretty piss poor against hiim and every other stoneblade deck, the lands match up is horrible, and i cant even explain goblins other than i had pointless green cards in my deck and fetchlands dealing damage to me for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by c2232
Oh, so symbiote can target your opponent's creatures, I had missed that. Still, hardly a compelling argument for running phantasmal imageQuote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
So, how have people been liking the new Pegasus? Is it the real deal? A 1, 2, 3 or 4 of? I haven't been playing much D&T lately, but will probably take it for a spin soon (monoW).
I would say that mono white is just as good as the green splash if not better. I did beat omni-tell, D&T, and a weird pox/lands mash up...... Again though I had useless cards in the D&T and Pox matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Absolutely not. Pridemage, Teeg, and Sylvan Library are all relevant against Goblins, Teeg mainly because every Goblins player will side in Pyrokinesis against DnT. Pridemage blows up their Vials, and they plain don't have an answer to Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Against Lands, you absolutely want Sylvan Library, and an early Pridemage is great against Exploration, often a reason to keep an otherwise mediocre hand for them. The most relevant cards are still Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle, and Wasteland, but there isn't any discernible net-loss from playing green splash against Lands.
I think Disguruntled Elk is right from before: the only matchups you lose a few % points to is Delver, and those are generally very positive already. I'm of the mind that "loss" might be negligible with Choke coming in, but basically your only real concern is Stifle.
I guess it comes down to personal preference. I don't see myself trying the green splash again but that's me, I wish you luck with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsToTimeshares
Quote:
Originally Posted by c2232
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Roughly how many total games have you played with Green, vs. how many with Red and mono-white? Pilot familiarity is an important factor. It's natural to be discouraged with a poor result, but to let that cast an overly pessimistic view of the deck doesn't do you (or the deck) any favors.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsToTimeshares
Given that there are a lot of red splash fans here, I'm certainly interested in its further developments. Have you been able to find a way to fit Vryn Wingmare into your builds? If so, how has it performed? Mono-white fans have been going nuts over it, and I think I can fit up to two in the Green splash, though I'm hesitant about what it will do to my susceptibility to sweepers and removal, as they are yet more x/1 creatures.
Mono White I have thousands of matches, green I would say close to 100 or so (I tested it pretty hard in the little time I had), with red I actually have the PIQ I played in Baltimore and that's it. It's not a pessimistic view at all, I gave it a legitimate run and I personally believe it performed poorly in the vast majority of games I played.... I think Teeg should be moved to the sideboard as he is just plain useless in a lot of games, and was usually the first thing I sided out. I'm currently busting my ass to get one more recruiter so I can run red in the DC Open and I feel confident in it, I will be testing the shit out it for the next 1.5 weeks just to make sure I know a bit better.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I ran it as a 4-of last week at Card Kingdom and went 3-1. Being able to have it and Thalia in play, or even better, two copies of it and a Thalia felt very strong. I didn't miss my Serra Avengers or my one-of Mangara at all. The card strengthens my game against unfair decks, which are the ones I'm more worried about. Serra Avenger is very strong against fair decks but my real haymaker in those games is Stoneforge Mystic, not Avenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
After Fatal brought it up a few pages ago, I'm going to test the following list:
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
3rd Revoker could be the 4th StP, this is subject to change, same for the exact manabase distribution between fetches, duals and basics. I haven't taken a real look on the SB so far.
Image is a quite interesting card, but I need more playtesting to really judge it. Fiend Hunters might be SB material.
3 Images as the sole :u: seems... Not worth the added cost of running Tundra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
What about Meddling Mage?
Maybe dropping something like a Wingmare and a Image for 2 Meddling Mage?Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Having Mage seems like big game against OmniTell hitting SnT, Miracles hitting Terminus, and can do some work against other combo or engine fueled decks - Dig, Loam, PFire, etc.
It's 4 Images, not 3. And as I said, the manabase is just a rough draw - could easily be something like 3 Tundra/5 fetches. I would definitely try to go with 8 blue sources, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I'm aware of Medding Mage since Fatal's base list had 2 MD, but I don't think it's MD material. SB, yeah, that could work. But I haven't seen anybody running Pikula outside of SBs in a long time, probably with good reason.
Edit. For shit and giggles, I'm going to test this greedy monstrosity:
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Tundra
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Council's Judgment
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Demise
1 Mirran Crusader
I also wonder how good Geist of Saint Traft would be as Recruiter target here.
Sorry for the double post, but since there is barely any discussion right now anyway, I'd like to throw this in:
I'm back to testing my Wg Noble Hierarch build. Exalted has been pretty excellent so far. While Wg has some attractive options that red lacks, it doesn't have the raw hate power the red splash could provide with Magus of the Moon and Sudden Demise. 3 colors at the same time are definitely undoable in D&T. However, what about a transformable sideboard? Theorycrafting lead me to this: (And before people ask, KotR and SDT are currently flexslots that need testing. They could be easily something else like other beaters, Wingmare, Teeg, Revoker or Pridemage.)
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Plateau
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Sudden Demise
Before you wonder about the weird 1/1 Plateau split: Both the green and red splash require at least ~9 colored sources to operate smoothly. Since I already made heavy compromises with the SB, I don't have the space to put in a second Plateau. On the other hand, I don't want to go below two basics or duals for the respective splashes, hence the current split. If you decide to side out Hierarchs, the Plateau is also the standard 23rd land, bringing you back to 23 lands/15 white sources.
I admit it's very unconventional, but unlike the joke deck I've posted above, this is crazy enough that it might actually work. As long as you don't try to force tri-color post-board, you should be able to draw from the strength of either splash post-board, depending on the match-up.
Interesting list, but I see some glaring problems about that deck:
1. Hierarch doesn't add red mana for the Magus and especially Sudden Demise. KotR + Vial is not going to be enough to reliably drop them. I'd run BoP rather than Hierarch in that case, the bird also flies to get in for extra evasion. You lose the Exalted trigger but adding red mana is more important IMO since Magus is going to be relevant in a lot of matchups. You could take out the sideboard Plateau that way.
2. With a KotR kit and 25+ creatures I would want a Cradle somewhere in the mana base. Helps a lot with the 3 equipment and activating Top and Port.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenadol
1. Emphasize mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
You don't run green alongside red. That's the whole point of being a transformable sideboard. You swap out one splash for the other. I'm currently testing Hierarch because it gives you a higher mana source density/accel without card disadvantage while the Exalted trigger makes even meek creatures into sizeable threats (instead of being another dead mana source draw). A 0/1 flyer by itself isn't too impressive until you slap a SoFaI on it. And fetching a green source to play a mana dork that can produce red seems like a questionable plan when you could just fetch a red source in the first place.
2. I'm not a fan of adding more off-color, potentially dead lands for 2 lousy KotR that might be changed into Wingmares if they fail to impress me.
As you've said it's awkward to run manadorks that don't produce the colors of your deck, but it's also awkward to fetch color A to produce color B a turn later. This points to the idea that there's simply no way to effectively shove three colors into the 75, but I'll be interested to hear if something pans out.
I'd suggest replacing the maindeck Plateau with a Taiga, and Flooded Strand with Arid Mesa, to alleviate splash issues. Maybe add the 8th fetch to return to 23 land. Attempting a 22-card manabase with heavy color requirements and 8 brown land may be too greedy. Hierarch could become the land. You'd end up with better color support (14 land that can produce white, 11 that can produce green, 10 postboard that can produce red). The single color splashes have tried a single off-color basic. Again it's awkward when you draw that and two brown land, but at least this time it can be used to cast a Hierarch/BoP, and concessions must be made when you get this greedy.
You'll be right in the bullseye of anyone running Stifle, and will be further disadvantaged against Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc. I'm really not convinced that the extra vulnerability and inconsistency is worth the added power, but it's an interesting idea.
Taiga in the MD does absolutely nothing as the deck runs zero red cards before boarding - it would simply be a nonbasic Forest. As for sideboarding, you might have a point, as there might be odd cases where you want Magus alongside green cards, e.g. Teeg, for specific match-ups. Swaping the SB Plateau for a Taiga is something I'll keep in mind, but I need to see more testing results before making any hasty decisions because that is really greedy.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
That said, the 22-mana base with Hierarchs has been pretty smooth so far. Vial contributes a great deal to that. As it stands now, I don't see any reason to cut Hierarchs for more lands.
Yes, Stifle, B2B and PoP are going to hit hard, but their numbers are rather low in the general metagame. Blood Moon is also a thing and probably the most relevant. Hierarchs should help to migate some of the that damage, though. Be aware that the manabase isn't all too different from Imperial Taxes. The only thing they got going for them is 3 basics vs 2 basis here, which is only a minor difference with 7 fetches each.
I think that you should give a shot to Gaea's Cradle, as already suggested.
Since you like playing with mana dorks, I believe that you will no regret it. Your gW build has more mana and is one turn faster than standard mono W (one of the main reasons for playing the G spash, imho). Cradle helps you a lot at playing an equipment and equipping in the same turn and you will find this useful in many games.
I would try -2 top, -1 port, +1 KotR, +1 cradle, +1 G producing land (savannah, cavern of souls, canopy).
In particular, I would cut the 4th port in favour of a colored land because you have green 1 drop and 9 sources is really a low count (I believe that 11 green sources are required in this deck). KotR is good a finding ports when you need them :).
Finally, tops are really good at improving the consistence of the deck but I would cut them when testing the G splash. In fact, I suggest you to focus on evaluating green cards (KotR, ramp cards, bears, whatever you like) first. Then, when you are convinced of the green splash and once you have figured out the cards that you want, you could start toying with tops.
My 2 cents
I cut the KotRs for 2 Wingmares (since I want immediate impact on the board instead of waiting for a turn; also 4 flyers aren't enough). Top is alright, but I'll try out a 3rd Wingmare and a 3rd Revoker in its slots instead and see how it goes.
Also trying out the Taiga in the board instead to Plateau.
If anybody wants to test KotRs with Cradle, feel free to do so. The more data, the better.
I still see no need to adjust the manabase. I haven't had much chance to test the red splash so far since I rarely had matches where it came up, but the green side is running like a charm. Vial acts technically as green mana source for all intents of purposes.
Hey everyone, I got to play my green splash (I posted it a couple pages ago) in a just-shy of 50 people tournament yesterday, and won the whole thing, going 4-1-1 in swiss and then crushing the top 8. I played against miracles 4 times (3 in swiss, and then again in finals). I'll give a more detailed report later, but I played:
Round 1: Mono W DnT 2-0
Round 2: Omni-show 0-2
Round 3: Miracles 2-1
Round 4: Dredge 2-1
Round 5: Miracles 2-0
Round 6: Miracles 1-1-1
Top 8:
Quarters: Merfolk: 2-1
Semis: Arbiter/Prison DnT: 2-0
Finals: Miracles: 2-0
All-in-all, I went 7-1-1 (15-6-1 games), and the list felt very strong. I tweaked the board a bit before the event, but I felt very ahead in most match-ups.
Also, if anyone has any interest, I'd be happy to post a tournament report I have.
Idk about these color splashes, guys.
I mean, I can see the merit of Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg/Magus and bomby shit like TNN and Recruiter, but is this really worth it at the end of the day? Like, where/when has the monowhite version really gone so wrong? I think we can either play better or find more unique solutions within the mono-color restraint.
My main is pretty stock. 4 Avenger, 2 Mangara, 2 Revoker and 2 Wingmare round out the flexes. This is my board right now:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
More dudes with useful abilities. Four outs, more or less, to Omni, and some decent hate against these Dig decks. Fiend Hunter is the only one I really question, but he's still an out to Emrakul. And, if you want to get cute with him (and I mean real cute), you can use him to keep one of your own creatures tucked away against Miracles.
I will say, however, that the red splash so far brings the most actual value to the table, via Recruiter. Until we see a properly color-shifted version of him, I feel like he is the only reason to splash (with Magus and Demise simply being icing on the cake).
Don't bother bringing it up, it's a lost cause.... Stick with the mono-white version (Recruiters aren't the easiest card to get). I Believe mono-white is still very solid and consistent, There may be a few bad matchups (very few in comparison to most decks) but intelligent play and knowledge of the matchup helps alot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
I feel like the recruiter $ has held this splash at bay for years, but it really does solve the deck's biggest problem (having basically no card selection). but it's very good and the full potential is still fairly unexplored - again, mostly just because people don't want to shell out for recruiters.
Has anyone accumulated much experience with Vryn Wingmare? My inclination is to think jamming 4 is correct and that's the version I currently have put together, but I haven't had the chance to play many test games yet.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...?comment=12407Quote:
Originally Posted by c2232
Yea, "lost cause". Very easy to dismiss something when you have no true knowledge of what you're doing with it.
This is my main right now:Quote:
Originally Posted by cursecatcher
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Vryn Wingmare
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Snow-Covered Plains
I've found with my testing that Wingmare is... ok. Not terrible, just redundant--which is huge vs something like Delver where you want to keep its effect out and they are doing all the can to kill it. The loss of the revokers has be negligible; everything nowadays is spell-centric anyway, and he's pretty weak vs Miracles.
Ultimately, Wingmare flies and that is a big deal. When compared to its contemporary candidate in Aven Mindcensor, I think I'll take Wingmare almost any day.
But would I run four? No. The benefits don't outweigh the loss, especially if you are digging into the Avenger count (which should be four).
Looks pretty solid. I tested a four of and it seemed a little too much, I'm gonna try three but I'm sure I will end up at two. Now if your meta is nothing but miracles and modern decks I would strongly recommend the green splash, I have heard it does well in that meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Note about Blue splash on long term testing:
Maddling Mage is very, very good in current meta. Correct naming is key of this powerful card, it's like UW Cabal Therapy on legs. Specially from Vial. Miracle ability triggers so it gives window to use vial in response.
I cut 1 Phantasmal Image since it's not great vs heavy removal MU, it's dead draw from top and add 1 more MM.
Added Spell Pierce to SB add catch all answer.