Not owning a 4th Jace is a pretty good reason.:)
The only thing that scares me about Vesuva is this. You don't ever want to see it in your opening hand. Unlike the other CIPT lands, you can't lead with it very effectively.
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Not owning a 4th Jace is a pretty good reason.:)
The only thing that scares me about Vesuva is this. You don't ever want to see it in your opening hand. Unlike the other CIPT lands, you can't lead with it very effectively.
Yeah, that makes sense, for now the list I'm messing with is a lot like yours but with some changes for cards I do/don't own:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
1 Watery Grave
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
Though apparently I don't know where I put my dust bowl and upon further inspection I've ended up cutting a land for the 4th misstep. I'll try it out a bit and see how it does.
Split top 4 in a 39 person tourney today.
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Decree of Justice
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Extirpate
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Planar Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Energy Flux
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
I beat Hive Mind, Junk Depths, a Deadguy Ale variant, Pattern/NO Hulk, and Soul Sisters. I lost to Aggro Loam, and drew with Enchantress.
Actually I intended to write an elaborated tournament report, but as I was about to finish it I accidently pressed the "back-button" and the whole text was gone...so here's a short summary of the tournament on saturday in Nürnberg ( 37 participants ). I attempted with the following list :
// Lands
3 [ON] Island (1)
4 [B] Tundra
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [OD] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [IA] Counterspell
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [IA] Counterspell
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [SC] Wing Shards
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SHM] Fracturing Gust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
3 Cunning Wish because I like it to have an proper answer to rather specific and uncommonly seen decks even in game 1. Loam-based decks, Affinity and Dredge are good examples for this. In addition to that, the Wish also serves you a reliable way to deal with Progenitus ( wing shards ) and particualry thrun the last troll ( note that gw maverick is fairly popular in nürnberg ). In fact I won 2-3 matchs at this day due to Cunning Wish.
2 Wrath of God in my maindeck because as I've already mentioned, G/W Maverick is quite often seen in Nürnberg and wrath does a great job against them as the don't pack any cards which prohibit me from casting it ( like Daze and cursecatcher ). Besides it's another good solution to Thrun, the Last Troll.
No EE, because I think the manacurves of today's aggro piles are too diverse so you won't get a reliable sweeper with EE in these days. for example, if you get paired up with merfolk, they'll have CC1, CC2, CC3 creatures and EE is not a good card to get done with these. Besides, cunning wish can handle Vial too...( like EE does, but I've often seen that people who argued FOR Engineered Explosives due to it's ability to deal with Aether Vial.
round 1 vs Affinity: I win both games due to cunning Wish as Fracturing gust wipes his whole board in each of the 2 games -> 1-0-0
round 2 vs Aluren: ID as I see no chance to win this in G3 and obviously he was a bit concerned about losing too...->1-0-1
round 3 vs Lands: As I noticed what he was playing I got quite unmotivated ;). I lose G1 because he cuts off my mana income beats me steadily down with Factories. G2 and G3: I win both games due to Meddling Mages which targeted Loam and EE and cunning Wish, which enabled me to remove Crucible with Surgical Extraction from the game. If I hadn't had cunning wish, Crucible would have been returned with Ruins, so thanks to cunning wish at this point ;).
2-0-1
round4 vs. Team america: I lose both games to hymn to tourach as my opponent managed it to hymn away my swords and counterspells for his threats. additionally, his wastelands disrupted my ( at this point fragile ) manabase.
2-1-1
roound 5 vs Dredge G1 is decided quickly as he has 3 ichorids and some bridges in this grave. I don't get the chance to cunning wish for Extraction, but I don't think that would have mattered though. G2 and 3 are decided for my favor as I manage it to counter each of his discard outlets with MMS and Force which gives me enough time to find some crypts and Cunning wish :D .
3-1-1
round 6 vs UBG landstill. I lose g1 to Life from the loam :( even tough I had a jace out ( recurrsive Manlands>Jace ). I win g2 because I've got more Elspeth and Jace than him xD. G3.... -.- My comrades who were watching the game and my opponent had already accepted my win, but I don't fucking manage it to kill him as the 5. extra turn began. Note that Jace had already 13 counters and my elspeth was steadily producing threats so it would have taken about 2 turns to finish the game...that pissed me off quite a bit :D
end result
3-1-2
I became 12th and got a Stoneforge Mystic. im quite satisfied with the performance of my deck and i can highly recommend it to run cunning wish and meddling mages in your sideboard.
thanks for reading
Nice list, resembles mine a lot. I'd definitely go: -1 WoG +1 Shackles though - with all that removal WoG will more often than not be a 1-1. I'd personally go -1 CS + 1 Island. 23 land is the perfect amount for this list.Quote:
Originally Posted by rayaj
I might actually cut an explosives for shackles instead considering that I am running Academy Ruins in my list.
Hi @ all! I'm new here and want to introduce myself into the thread.
I now practiced a lot and can say that 2x C.Wish is better than the 2 Counterspell many players are running atm. I remember many times when I had Counterspell and wanted something else, like a Wish e.g.
The thing is, on the one hand you need 2xU, even if its not of a problem most of the time, but on the other I found it often getting Spell Snared. I think the 3cc slot is a pretty safe mana cost slot in terms of resolving these days. 1cc + 2cc seem rather unsolid since times of MM and Snare..especially 1cc, since even non-blue decks run them :/
Thats why I think you should run a counter package of:
4x FoW
4x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
I'm didn't miss counters somehow, eventhough Im looking for space all the time to add some..But actually you dont need more than these above in my build. (see list below)
The only alternative to C.Wish for me is E.Tutor with a Tool Box in main and another in your SB. Didnt test this yet.. Any experiences here?
And I think, that the current meta definately has gotten slower! Me and probably you too, faced a lot of situations where it ended up to a Mental Misstep Counterwar and the one who had more MMs won.. So many of the early gamespells (1cc = catched by MM, 2cc= catched by Spell Snare)
won't hit the battlefield, thus leading to a slower Meta, opening chances for :
- Decree of Justice, which is epic (I run it as a 1of)
- C. Wish
- Wrath of God
Few more decisions I arrived at:
- 1of Crucible is definately good and sometimes gamebreaking!
- 1-2x Elspeth, imo: you really underestimate this girl, its so useful in many situations, where jace isnt (e.g.: I rather place her then another jace to handle the one of the opponent!, thus likely ending up with a destroyed Jace on his side, and a Ultimated Else on mine!)
- Wing Shards as a Wish target in the SB is totally nuts! (keep in mind, playing the whole in a row, ends up letting sacrifice at least 2 creas!)
- 2x Wrath is really good, AND definately better than Firespout, no way for discussions here, really^^)
Things Im still not sure about atm:
- whether to run SDT !?
- 2x or 3x EE !?
- 4 or 5 Killoptions !? (meaning adding the 2nd Else)
- adding a 2nd Humility !?
- keep C.Wish or replace by E.Tutor with Toolbox (MB+SB)
=> Maybe you guys can help me here and give comments, thx!
Here is my current list btw:
4x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Academy Ruins
3x Island
3x Plain
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Decree of Justice
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Force of Will
4x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Humility
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x Cunning Wish
1x SDT
SB:
1x E.Tutor
1x Wing Shards
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Pulse of the Fields
4x Meddling Mage
3x Vendilion Clique
3x Relic of Progenitus
Thoughts !?!? Feel free to comment please. Thx!
greetz MO :cool:
Sensei's Divining Top's power and usefulness completely depends on the speed of your metagame and what kind of manabase you're trying to get away with. In general, the slower your metagame, the better Top is, and the more you're erring on the side of excess land, the better Top is. The fastest aggro decks don't give you time to dig, and against quick combo Top has the same problem that Street Wraith/Gitaxian Probe always had in Belcher - You don't know what it's going to find you, and if you need a specific thing and don't find it, you may be screwed.
So if you're expecting a bunch of Landstill mirrors, Deadguy Ale, NO Rug, etc, Top's decent. If you're dealing with Zoo or Hive Mind, you want that Top to instead be some kind of immediate interaction. Against some decks, like Merfolk, it can go either way. It won't help you against a blindingly fast Merfolk hand, but it can help you maintain stabilization and goes a long way to winning a "Who can draw more lands that make a difference" Standstill fight.
I personally don't run it, because I feel like anything I want Top to do, the rest of blue can do better. Brainstorm and Jace outclass it. But in a nonblue based control deck? Absolutely. I want Top all day long.
If you run 4 BS, 4 Jace, 4 Standstill, Top is unnecessary, because you already have packed sufficient card-quality.
But since you're only running 4 BS, 2 Jace, 4 Standstill, that single Top is very strong - you can even add another one.
I think it's all about the overall count of card-quality cards.
In my opinion Top (in place of Jace) is excellent for faster metagames, simply because Top is actually usable in the early game (it costs 2, cost is splitted - shouldn't be so hard to find the mana for it) whereas Jace is a 4cc card, that is obviously dead in the early-game and is thus boarded out / not stellar against Zoo and Merfolk.
The advantage of Jace over Top is that Jace is an actual win-con.
You're pretending that Top lowers card-quality ("if you need a specific thing and don't find it"), there must be something wrong here. Street Wraith / Gitaxian Probe only draws a single card, whereas Top digs three cards deep into your library and even more if you have a fetchland and the mana to use it.Quote:
Top has the same problem that Street Wraith/Gitaxian Probe always had in Belcher - You don't know what it's going to find you, and if you need a specific thing and don't find it, you may be screwed.
That's not quite the point I was making. The point I'm making is, that in the case of all three cards, if you see it in your opening hand, you don't know what card it's going to turn into. While granted, SDT is waaaaay better at filtering card quality, it's also much slower at it. You won't always have time to get the card you need with it. So for different reasons, it still suffers from the same problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
Say you're playing against Hive Mind, going second. You get an opening hand of 3 land, Standstill, Swords to Plowshares, Counterspell, Sensei's Divining Top.
That's an okay hand for the situation. That's not a great hand. It'll lose if they've got a turn two Show and Tell, regardless of which half of the combo they go with. It'll also lose if they can fight through your one Counterspell if your Top/Standstill can't dig for another counter fast enough. Deciding whether to mulligan this is tough. I believe most players would roll with it.
However, if this Sensei's Divining Top is actually a business spell, you're much more likely to know what to do with the hand. If it's a Force of Will, you're going to keep it obviously. If it's a second Swords or a fourth land, you probably aren't.
The longer this sample game goes, the better that top's going to be, but in the immediate hand you'll wish it was a Brainstorm to see cards faster, a Force to just stop things outright, or some garbage card so you know to mulligan it in hopes of an amazing six.
Top's still an absolutely amazingly great card, but it does have its drawbacks. Top in your opening hand is a question you have to answer: Are my other six enough to keep me in this game until I get time to find what I need with Top? And the more questions you have to answer, the more likely you are to make a mistake.
Okay enough to SDT^^ lets conclude, SDT is a meta-thing and its also up your total amount of Draw-Engines you have in your deck (so to say: Jace,BS,SS,etc)
But what about the other points ???
- 2x or 3x EE !?
- 4 or 5 Killoptions !? (meaning adding the 2nd Else)
- adding a 2nd Humility !?
- keep C.Wish or replace by E.Tutor with Toolbox (MB+SB)
Thx guys!
-It really depends on the rest of your removal suite. Two EE is probably enough with the inclusion of academy ruins.
-Rather than a second Elspeth, I would suggest a third Jace.
-Humility can be good, but it really isn't strong enough as Taco has convinced me.
-As for wish vs. tutor, I would probably stick with wish, but even if the meta has slowed down I don't like wish very much. Aggro decks may have slowed down, but wish isn't great against combo in fact it is quite the opposite in my opinion. It also doesn't answer an early Progenitus/Emrakul very well. I really like the wish package but even more I like having a full board for what I expect to play against. The final call is yours, but having played with wish before, I always found myself wanting to just be able to have a sideboard that could push unfavorable matchups in my favor.
The thing about Humility is this. While it's invaluable against some dudes, 1/1's with no abilities are still a problem you have to answer at some point if your kill isn't fast. So I don't find it necessary for the most part.
I run 3 Engineered Explosives and wouldn't consider changing it without a black splash. UW alone has way too few means of dealing with random problematic permanents. EE's versatile. It's how you get rid of artifacts and enchantments, and it does so in a card that's also useful for getting rid of dudes.
As for Elspeth, as I don't run Humility, I have no real use for Elspeth. And I think any list not packing four copies of Jace, the Mind Sculptor while running any other planeswalker is making a mistake.
I played a 12 man tournament today as a warm up for a 50 players one that I'll attend tomorrow.
I tried an UWr build (I always liked UWb but I'm reconsidering Pyroblasts as I'm seeing too much Snt these days, too much Ancestral Visions and fish is always a problem)
My list:
// NAME: Landstill
// Lands
3 [M12] Island (1)
2 [M12] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [DDF] Mishra's Factory
3 [R] Tundra
1 [B] Plateau
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Celestial Colonnade
1 [10E] Faerie Conclave
// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [COM] Brainstorm
3 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [10E] Wrath of God
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
I played against Stax (2-0) UB suboptimal Rogue Mill (2-0), Aggroloam RGB (1-1, he was very slow so I didn't have enough time to finish him, I needed 6-7 turns more), ID with the Gate for top4 (but we play it and I win 2-0), then first round of top4 vs the Gate (2-0).
Final against Merfolk. He steamrolls me drawing more counters, more fish, 2 Wastelands, 2 Mutavaults, 4 lords etc...in g1. I race him g2 with Elspeth tokens and Celestial Colonnade + Faerie Conclave and triple Jace bounce.
G3 he shows me that 4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Pyroblasts, 3 EE and 2 Wrath of God are not enough to stop fish. I finish 2nd.
Thoughts on the list: I don't own 4 Jace so I cant play the set, but I have to say that in various situations Elspeth has been invaluable today(chumpblocking 6/7 Goyfs, 7/7 flying Colonnade etc...).
I don't have Peacekeepers but I think that a couple of Firespout should be enough in the board to fight Fish (sb plan would be:-4 Standstill -1 Brainstorm, +3 Pyroblast +2 Firespout). I'm probably cutting 2 Beb for the Firespouts (also they're pretty good in various Mu, while Beb seems a more narrow sb choice.)
I loved EE's all day. 3 is the perfect number. They blow up Chalice and Mox Diamonds with little effort in one of our worst MU preboard ( AggroLoam) and are very good vs a wide range of decks.
I'm ok with 6 Manlands and no Wastelands. There's actually nothing we really want to waste anyway.
@Rayaj: While I tried Tops and E. Tutors in the past ( and I thought that they were invaluable) now I think that they suck and they should be real cards.
Wishboard sucks even worse. Too slow and situational unless you play 3 Wishes,but they clog the maindeck in an incredible way.
Elspeth sucks, no seriously...
Elspeth is good against decks that play dumb creatures: Team America, Maverick, Bant, Zoo, but very weak against combo-engines: NO Progenitus, SnT Emrakul, Reaniminator, Dredge, Goblins (Matron + Ringleader + Siege-Gang, Piledriver), Merfolk (Islandwalk + Mutavault + Silvergil Adept).
What do you think is the right number of Mental Missteps? 3 or 4?
I disagree. You could say the same about Wrath or other cards that they are weak against a deck type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
Elspeth and a Factory means you are hitting for 5 flying a turn; that is a fast clock. She may be better in an aggro build (10 a turn with Crusader is wonderful) but she is no slough in Landstill.
Elspeth is absolutely amazing, as she has always been. Jace has blinded people to this. I've been running a 2/2 split in my U/W Control decks for the last year+, and I'd never consider cutting Elspeth.
It's funny when I hear people advocate for running 4 Jaces to win the Jace war, when Elspeth assassinates Jace like a pro and then sticks around to keep being awesome. The only time she's lackluster is against a board of multiple creatures, or evasive creatures. Jace still sucks in the former, and is only good against the latter if it can find an answer in time.
I'm not trying to compare Elspeth to Jace directly, since they have very different functions. What I am saying is, I think a U/W Control deck (whether it be Landstill or something else) should be running both.
But don't you agree that Elspeth is very weak against NO Progenitus, Emrakul, Reaniminator, Dredge (and to a lesser extent Merfolk and Goblin)?
That's not just a deck type, but a big part of the metagame.
As for the Jace war, it probably doesn't really matter whether you run 2 Jace / 2 Elspeth or 4 Jace. Whoever sticks the PW first, wins.
When you say very weak, are you implying that the card itself is weak, or that it's weaker than Jace would be in the same situation? Against NO Progenitus, neither Jace nor Elspeth is actually stopping a 10/10 from coming down. While Jace may be able to try and draw you cards to answer it, if they have a guy on the board, you're going to be in bounce-mode till you find an answer anyway. If they are on the Goyf beatdown plan, Elspeth is alot stronger than Jace. Both Elspeth and Jace are bad against Clique.
Against Emrakul, sure, Jace is better.
Against Reanimator, both Jace and Elspeth are extremely slow, since the opponent is likely casting their key spells in the first few turns. This means both Jace and Elspeth are fairly bad here. Sure, Jace can bounce a fatty, but if they dropped say a Jin-Gitaxias and you didn't have a Swords for it, casting a Jace is going to be just as irrelevant as casting an Elspeth.
Against Dredge, Elspeth is better. Making 1/1 tokens is alot stronger than whatever Jace can do against them.
Against Merfolk and Goblins, Jace is awful unless the board is clear. On the flip side, Elspeth is good against Merfolk if they don't have a Lord of Atlantis or flying Coralhelm, and Elspeth is an absolute bomb against Goblins.
The 4 Jace vs 4 Jace control battles usually involve someone casting a Jace, and the other person countering it or nuking it with their own Jace. This goes back and forth until one or both players run out of answers, finally someone sticks a Jace on the table, and then that player jumps far ahead of the other.Quote:
As for the Jace war, it probably doesn't really matter whether you run 2 Jace / 2 Elspeth or 4 Jace. Whoever sticks the PW first, wins.
In the case of Elspeth, especially against situational counters like Misstep and Spell Snare, she can come down against an already-on board Jace and make a 1/1 token. Jace player can bounce it, in which case the Elspeth player will make another. This may go on for however long, but each bounce is neutralizing Jace (opponent is not drawing cards), Jace is going down in counters, and Elspeth is going up. Eventually, a 1/1 will stick, Elspeth will make it 4/4 flying, and it will kill the opposing Jace. Elsepth sticks around, and now the opponent is on a clock. Opponent resolving another Jace won't turn the situation around.
EDIT: The Jace vs Elspeth comparisons are very loose anyway, since they are both dependant on what other spells you have, the board state, what other spells the opponent has, etc. My point is, if you playtest with both Elspeth and Jace as much as I have, you will realize that there are many situations in which Elspeth is better than Jace.
EDIT 2: Also, "Superfriends mode," i.e having both Jace and Elspeth in play at the same time, is deliciously good.
Actually I'm rather thinking of comparing Elspeth to Humility, WoG, and Cunning Wish.
My suggestion is 3-4 Jace TMS, 3-4 WoG/Humility, and possibly Cunning Wish, 0 Elspeth. (I personally like Decree of Justice too.)
I think that Elspeth is a good card, but considering the current metagame (with a lot of different combo decks) she's lacking comparing to Humility, Wrath of God, and Cunning Wish.
Comparing Elspeth to Humility or Wrath of God is like comparing Jace to Standstill or Ancestral Visions.
Personally I see much less use in the format for Humility, because it really only deals with Emrakul and Progenitus, and even then they still have a creature on board to ping you or your walker. I'd rather have a sweeper in that slot or Elspeth, if you've played enough against aggro decks then you know that humility only serves to staunch the bleeding but not stop it. You really need Elspeth to generate tokens to chump or have Wrath/Firespout to clear the board. Right now I have one shackles in the main, but I'm thinking of going back to the wrath I had in that spot. Even if Wrath only hits one creature, if that creature is Thrun/Emrakul/Progenitus then it's more than worth it.
I've been running a 3 Jace/1 Elspeth split and I love it, I hardly need more than one Elspeth; if she doesn't show up I can still win, but when she does show up she can tilt the scales far in your favor and put you on the aggro plan (3-4 turn clock) instead of the fateseal plan (6 turn clock if you don't have to brainstorm/bounce). Also, if you ever get her ult to go off it is such a house, most decks can't handle it. Having invincible factories (outside of exile effects) is just crippling to any opponent, not mentioning the psychological effects of having essentially all your permanents be indestructible.
What about moving Clique maindeck? She's been amazing today in my build with Ancestral Visions (which, on the contrary, have been the epytome of situationality); I guess they're even better with Standstill. EOT Cliquing their counter away and then dropping a Standstill is pretty good; beyond this, it's an instant duress that gives information, improves the combo matchup preboard, and shortens the clock (especially paired with Elspeth). It even Vindicates opponent Cliques. Everything Control wants.
I'm currently tweaking a red-splashed list that features a couple of MD Fire/ice because they're amazing in a metagame of Maverick, NO Rug, and Merfolk. I'm still undecided on a couple of points:
- Removal suite: 4 Stp, 1 Path to Exile, 2 Fire/Ice, 2 EE, 1 Shackles. No Wrath of God, at least maindeck. I've found out that it's way better to be proactive and increase the number of spot removals, in order either to gain tempo and stay open for the counters. The mass removal approach doesn't seem to work anymore, these days, considering either the size of the single threats (which makes it sufficient not to overextend for a ZOo Player, except when Elspeth is on the board), and the presence of planeswalkers. "Wrath. Ok, untap, Jace. Nice Counterspell in hand".
I'd like also to discuss a bit Path to Exile. The drawback may be costy these days. In a format where giving a free land drop may cause them to accelerate their Jace/Kotr/Batterskull, that may be pricy. I know it has the purpose to guarantee better Standstills costing only 1, but it seems a removal you don't want to cast in the early stages of the game.
- Counter suite: I absolutely love Counterspell, and judge Spell Snare mediocre. In a format where the cmc of the threats is extremely diversified, unconditionality is better, even at the expense of more mana. I want to be able to answer everything, minimizing situational cards in the md against an unknown field. Snare is one of those. I play 3 MM for the same reason- I like redundancy and squared lists, but it soon becomes quite situational. The only worth targets soon become their MM on my removals.
-Planeswalkers split: I want to second Hanni here when he says not to underestimate Elspeth. She plays both the defensive and the offensive role in a good way. Jace provides card advantage, she provides board endurance and stall. This is critical against aggro decks when light on removal or waiting for the EEs to come. Jace is better with Standstill, though. Bounce ability+SS is just bonkers.
I'm playing 3-1, contemplating whether or not to switch to 2-2.
-Colorless/Utility lands: I'd like to fit a 5th manland, but Colonnade is just that shitty. I'm already playing 1 Ruins and 1 Karakas, so Mutavault seems out of question. I also tend to prefer solid configurations (especially considering the 4 CSpells), even if I'm worried because packing SS without Wastelands or an adequate number of manlands is danngerous nowadays that Turternwald-ish lists are everywhere.
---------------------------
My list. Feedbacks are appreciated. I'm getting interested in the archetype, makes me feel like playing real, thought Magic.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, Tms
1 Elspeth
4 Fow
4 Cspell
3 MM
2 Snare
4 Stp
1 Path to Exile
2 Fire/Ice
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
Sb
3 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre/2nd Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile/Fire-Ice/Shackles/2nd WoG
1 Mental Misstep/Open slot
I don't know what you are talking about Spell Snare. I understand that you can find all kind of cc's, but almost every deck has a crucial cc2 drop. There are actually tier decks (blade variants) based on a 2cc drop.Also if you misstep their vial, Snare counters an insane amount of Merfolks. I'm not sure about cutting it (even partially).
Yesterday I attended a 45 players tournament.
R1: Aggroloam RGB: win 2-0. I actually controlled the game since turn 1 till Jace's fatality, in both games.
R2: Landeed: win 2-1 g1 he's better under standstill by seeing 3 Wastelands and 3 Factories in a row ( I played 6 manlands).G2 and G3 I show him the importance of playing Cliques and splashing red for Pyroblasts.
R3: Goblin mono R: WTF. He wins 2-0. g1 he has the nuts play with turn 2 SGC. G2 I sword/Wrath/Firesput/EE 17 dudes ( I actually checked, I'm not joking) he drops 25.
R4: Goblin mono R: Fuck. There are 4 goblins out of 45 players, I play against 2 of them. 2-0 for him.
Again, my matchups against swarm aggro/tribal are awful. I continue loosing to merfolk and goblins even if I played 4 Stp, 3 EE, 2 Wraths maindeck and 2 Firespout in sb.
I know most of the Legacy tiers (not the whole, because stuff like Hive Mind and Dredge don't) have crucial cc2 drops, but you should judge also basing on which are these threats.
Lately I've found out that most of the spells countered by Spell Snare can be managed in other ways, with the benefit of increasing catch-all spells and decreasing the situational ones. Considering the actual tiers, we have:
-Stoneforge Mystic;
-Dark Confidant;
-Tarmogoyf;
-Qasali Pridemage;
-Lord of Atlantis, Silvergill adept, Coralhelm Commander.
In all these cases, running more than 4 spot removals benefits the Standstill plan, since you can comfortably remove them EOT and then drop SS. No one of these is a must counter, and can be sent to farm easily.
If you Stp/Path/(F-I) Stoneforge, you'll allow the card advantage but leave them with a dead piece in hand. If it's Batterskull, the game must be dragged onto long distance to make it effective-but Landstill has tons of ways to deal with it.
Dark confidant is a must remove, this is true. This is as easily achieved as the case above; and still, decks running Confidant are slightly decreasing nowadays.
Qasali Pridemage is quite uneffective against this deck, considering the only worth target is the singleton Vedalken Shackles or the Crucible. EE can be popped in response, Factories aren't activated with it on the board.
Tarmogoyf is just a big beatstick that doesn't provide any significative advantage over beating, thus it can be taken care in a second moment not wasting the removal immediately. Spell Snare has become half effective in countering TGoyfs not just for Mental Misstep, but for GSZ @3 coming both from Zoo and NORug.
Merfolks are dealt with stalling the board and catching them into EEs and post-sideboard gunshots. By the way, running Firespout is a mistake because it's costy, slow, and bites the dust easily from the most played card by that deck: paymorel counters, Spell Pierce included. The best card against them remains Grim Lavamancer, paired with lots of spot removals, 2-3 EE and a Crucible of Worlds to keep the manlands on and having a defensive engine (and stabilizing the manabase on the long run). Winning against Merfolks through Wrath of God is conceptually wrong and practically undoable- at least, against good players.
The only juicy cc2 targets in the format that Landstill has to stop are Hymn to Tourach, Sylvan Library and Infernal Tutor. The first hurts, but it's fired by 2 single archetypes as of now that both suffer a Standstill deck. These are Junk and Team America. The first is just prone to a well-timed Standstill, the second is pretty low on threats and gets chopped with a grip of suboptimal cards if you manage to bypass the first turns manadenial and chain card advantage.
I'll admit that Spell Snare gives a significative help in handling Sylvan Library; that must not resolve. Still, you play 2-3 copies of EE, and 4 Forces. This isn't a valid argument, but at least you're not totally cold to it.
Infernal Tutor is just a card of a process where what you have to stop is the engine, not the output. Mental Misstep, Force and Counterspell are all very valid solutions to Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual. Moreover, 2 maindeck Cliques are a fantastic Storm hoser that not only compensate, but even provide more benefits than Spell Snare in that matchup.
I was forgetting enemies Standstills; those can be fought with deckbuilding (by running 6+ manlands), cleverness (breaking it eot when he has 7 cards, and so on), and a solid dose of topdecking skills.
-------------------
Now, let's move onto the real spells that Landstill has to stop. In the current metagame, you're likely to face:
- Jace, the Mind sculptor, either coming before of after ours.
- Natural Order.
- Vendilion Clique, freeing the way for Natural Order or Jace.
- Show and Tell, bringing Emrakul or Hive Mind.
- Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland, played by the majority of UW Landstill-ish Blade lists.
- Choke.
[-Dread Return]
All of these pose serious threat to the deck. All of these have to be stopped, or the game can be lost in a row. All of these do not have a cost of 2. Against all of these cards, which are the crucial cornerstones of a game when you drag if for the long distance, Spell Snare remains stuck in the hand and does nothing but pitching to Force of Will.
Changing the countersuite configuration into 4 Counterspell and 2 Vendilion Cliques just helps a lot in dealing with the aforementioned cards, and brings marginal gains like increasing the race; you're given a threat that does damage against combo decks before they wait 2 years to sculpt their hand, an instant Duress that gives you information about what to counter or not (critical against Stax, Enchantress, the mirror, Stoneblade), where to use removals, when to wait to maximize Explosives; increases the number of answers to Natural Order from 2 to 4 maindeck (if you run 2 Wrath of God, I don't); Vindicates opponents Cliques; scrambles the race in beating for 3 at a turn; steals Batterskull; pops Bridges unexpectedly; becomes a real short clock paired with Elspeth; becomes a serious disruption engine with Karakas.
Clique is just that good, even if she would have to eat Stp immediately. She's so good that I think Legacy was given a new standard of "best creature".
EDIT: Now it came into my mind that Hanni had had a similar discussion with someone else because he cut Spell Snares completely. Perhaps the deck was Countertop Superfriends or such, but if my memory doesn't deceive me, his argumentations for the cut resembled mine.
@Picelli: while I don't totally defend your choiche, I've always stated that in landstill card slots are really tight, and you have to focus on what you want to remove with removal spells and what you want to counter because you can't remove. Now, which direction do we want to go?
"speedstill" approach, if still exist, was simple: remove remove remove win via jace CA which draw into more removal etc. Now, as I see, there are two paths atm: 1) heavy counter 2) heavy removal
In this configuration, 4 snares are mandatory: you want to counter nearly every single spell your opponent plays. He focuses on curving? We focus on destroying its curve.
Now, Piceli's list seems to go in another direction, heavy removal's one. He is totally right that he barely needs spell snares in his list. More removals will simply do, and snare also gets hit by misstep, plus GSZ make it worse. I'd make some changes, though.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
(you miss 3 lands, I suppose 3 islands, and still you're on 22, a bit low I think, go to 23, with tolaria west and just a basic plains)
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Jace, Tms
1 Elspeth//Ajani Vengeant
4 Fow
4 Cspell
4 MM
4 Stp
2 Path to exile (Bolt)
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill // Ancestral Vision
--- I think this is more straightforward, not sold on the EE, could be disk.
3 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical Extraction
3 kitchen finks // 2 finks + 3rd wrath
4 Pyroblast // 3 + crucible
2 Wrath of God
Hey Gustha, thanks for the feedback. I understand your point, and yes, that's the concept I want to apply to Landstill. I don't seem to be happy with the heavy-counter lists, because I open hands that are clogged with them or find myself in unhappy situations with a hand full of blue and a resolved threat beating me. I want to find a good balance between stack control and board control; I'd tend to maximize the spot removals and run 3, 4 sweepers/steal effect.
I'd still run 2 Vendilion and 4 Planeswalkers though; I feel this is the right quantity, you don't want them to overload your hand.
This is the list I'm tweaking at the moment:
23 lands- yes, there are 3 Islands and 1 Plains. Since I'm tempted to fit a single Crucible, I'm considering whether or not to change Ruins and a Colonnade/fifth manland for a Wasteland; but I want to build my manabase and always have enough colored mana for CSpell and Shackles (which I'm in love with), so I'd stick to:
7 fetches
5 dual lands (undecided on Plateau)
4 Factories
1 Ruins
1 Karakas
1 5th manland/ Glacial Fortress- worth it? It was there just to have a dual that bypasses Choke, but it doesn't love Shackles.
4 basics
Threats (6)
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth
Removals (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
Board control (4)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
Stack control (12)
4 MM
4 Cspell
4 Fow
Card quality/CA (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
I'm missing 1 card. It could be a single Elspeth, or the single Crucible-even if I'm skeleptical about it without Wasteland, it may be crucial in a metagame of UW Stoneblades. It's hell slow, though, so I might choose the 3rd Elspeth to accomplish a more straightforward "reach 4 mana, close the game" plan.
I dislike Wrath of God; after some games, I seldom managed to at least 2x1 with it, and I was running just 4 Swords to plowshares (it was a previous build with Ancestral Vision). EEs and spot removals accomplish the same job without forcing you to tap out entirely.
I find it really good only against Progenitus and Emrakul, both of which come from another spell. They're clunky against everything else; even against NORug, after sideboard they're not worth coming in because he'll likely switched NOs with Jace.
I might leave one in the sideboard, even if it seems randomic.
That's what I planned to be my 15:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblasts
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Wrath of God
2 Grim Lavamancer
Given Lavamancer couldn't be that great with only 2 (non-basic) lands producing red, and since they were there to shore the Merfolk/Maverick matchup, I could think cutting them or the Pierces (which are good against NORug and Show and Tell decks, though) for a sideboard Crucible and something else. Finks are a good suggestion, but they'd serve only as a reinforcement against pure aggro or burn. I'm pretty well positioned against the first (I'm referring to Zoo and a bit to Big Zoo), and I'd tend to ignore the second, or to switch to a more aggressive hate-bears+Elspeth+cheap counters plan against it.
Enlighten me with your Landstill knowledge, Master ^^
Just wanted to add to Spell Snares that the better builds of Landstill that capitalize the power of Snares are the very list that focus on dominating the early game (which is primarily not a big goal for control decks).
what I mean by dominating the early game isn't winning on turn 2-4, but in a Landstill/control-player's context, it means that being able to survive any threat your opponent puts out in the early game and having a slight if not superior advantage after the early game.
Spell Snare is incredible at doing this, in the right list, in the right meta. Take for instance a heavy 2cmc-bomb meta, or simply, the old Speedstill approach. Your goal was to use Spell Snares/Mental Misstep to gain the edge. Every time your opponent taps out for 2, you are tapping 1 at instant speed to remove a threat. When they tap out for 3 to play that KotR, you are tapping 1 at instant speed to play StP. The real power of Spell Snare in the right meta is pretty simple. It not only answers the 2cmc bombs that people play, but it opens up for mana efficiency for a deck that is deprived of brokeness. You will gain some slight advantage, which puts you ahead (usually resolving Jace/Elspeth while having mana open to protect them).
Similarly, this is the reason why 4 StP + 3-4 PtE MD lists also work, although I'm personally not a fan of those lists.
The concept behind snare is whole lot different now than it was when snare was first printed and brought to landstill. The goal there was to survive through the early game and then your opponent finished the gas: you began to play.
Now this is not true anymore. Even aggressive decks became more resilient in the mid-late game, aggroncontrol too. We can' buy time just to buy time, that's simply delaying our death, not winning! The goal is to protect jace and win. Period. How do you do this? Via counters? Via sweepers?
@Piceli: LOL! Too bad I don't play landstill anymore, and instead switched to play NO RUG or... well, simply not playing. I don't have enough time, and when I play I don't want to get the unpleasant feeling that, whatever my opponent does, I'm always a step behind!
To put it down very simply, I consider an error playing less than 4 jaces. Jaces is your main wincondition. If I were to cut a walker, I'd cut elspeth instead. Ajani vengeant is much better in combination with vedalken shackles, as well.
As for the color, i don't know if reb's worth making issues with the manabase. Straight UW might work, spell pierces are good vs lots of decks (from combo to discard), reb's good against s&t decks but meh. You have lots of counters. The point isn't having lots of counters but lots of cards. In fact I was considering cutting brainstorms for AV, having a total of 8 draw spells (didn't remember the name of the planeswalker control experiment we did long time ago). Given the fact that I consider an error playing less than 4 jace, I'm fine with 3 cliques to protect it. Cliques not only protect jace from counters, but steals artifacts from SFM too, and it's pretty darn good in combo with karakas.
wastelands: not a fan of those. but a singleton dust bowl may find place.
i'm currently toying with this in my spare time:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm -> (Ancestral Vision?)
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Dust Bowl
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 Tolaria West
Edit: lol, this screams speedstill!!!! cc3 is fine, +1 makes CA, -2 protects herself, ultimate is a bomb. More suited for The Gate than for landstill maybe?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...2&d=1314763231
Spell Snare, Path to Exile, and Mental Misstep are competing for slots. The problem with Snare is that Aether Vial blanks it. PtE, on the other hand, is limited to creatures: it's a dead card against combo (Hive Mind, Storm, etc.) and control (creatureless control, etc.).
I've been playing that list and I've got to say that I'm extremely happy with it. I think I'll take it to a big tournament we're having next Saturday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
The Faerie Conclaves are, however, a bit underwhelming. I did try cutting them for 2 Creeping Tar Pits and 1 extra U. Sea, but is was more of the same. Any ideas?
I've also dropped the Colonnade, and I'm tinkering with either A. Ruins or Dust Bowl, any thoughts?
If I add Dust Bowl, I also want a Crucible in. I tested the Crucible a bit and it was quite good, though I did not get Dust Bowl into play at the same time. Getting the CoW in is, however, a bit tricky, as the list is really tight. I ultimately dropped 1 Path to try the Crucible.
What do you think of this sideboard:
3 Peacekeeper
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Wrath of God (maybe drop 1 Peacekeeper for another wrath, making 3 Wraths between MD and SB. I might be a tad excessive though).
2 Meddling Mage or 2 Pithing Needle (undecided yet, needles seem a bit more versatile at first sight, but I've got to test them).
Sorry for DP, but does anyone have access to the list played by John Winters in the last SCG Open??? By looking at the coverage, it ran 1 Elspeth (or so said the commentators), and I saw 1 Academy Ruins (could maybe indicate he was running Explosives), Crucible of Worlds, Vedalken Shackles, and all the stuff you find in your regular Landstill.
I'll try the list I posted (well, Tacosnape did) above with the following changes:
-3 Faerie Conclave
+1 Island
+1 Plains/Karakas
+1 Dust Bowl/Academy Ruins (could also drop the Colonnade for either)
I also want to try -1 Path +1 Crucible.
Thoughts on adding Vedalken Shackles???
if the mana base can support shackles that card is just amazing.
Can this deck survive without Mental Misstep, expecting Storm, Dredge and Goblins to come back rampant?
I'd say we can expect it to be dropped back down to about where it was prior to the printing of Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I'd say we can expect it to be dropped back down to about where it was prior to the printing of Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
i.e.?Quote:
Originally Posted by RJM
i.e.?Quote:
Originally Posted by RJM
Back to the pit of the Tier 1.5/2/3 decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I'm not sold on this. Mental Misstep used to give a noticeble edge to Stoneblade in protecting t2 Mystic from Stp, but it also made Merfolk incredibly consistent and tempo-thriving. Landstill had its Missteps too, but the use and the boost gained by those decks was way more sick than the use LS had. MM was for us just a form of counter-control, not a way to protect a fast threat. Missing a Misstep in those scenarios-when you had to have it-meant you were already in trouble on turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
No more Mental Misstep means you're more likely for your spot removals and Brainstorms to resolve, resulting in both slowing down them considerably and developing your board to reach the state where you can confidently drop your cc3 bombs/ cc4 Planeswalkers.
Of course Daze still exists, in fact I'm not claiming Merfolk to be a positive matchup after the ban. Still, a dedicated sideboard (I'm thinking about 1-2 Path to Exiles, a couple of Firespouts and 3 pyroblasts, along with Crucible+Shackles) should now be good to stop them. Wrath of God may result in being either stellar or shitty depending on the gamestate.
I don't see Stoneblade being a real threat again. If they're going to pack the Countertop suite, they're essentially giving away the advantage of playing Stoneforge Mystic. Why? To make it consistently protected, you have to assemple CBT, or CB at least before; this means you're slowing yourself down to reach a t3 Mystic, t4 activation. You're giving plenty of time for the aggro player to setup their board, to the Junk player to find a Vindicate or a discard spell, and to the control player to find responses, or ramp to Jace.
Of course they can try to go for a turn 2 Stoneforge, but I'm expecting them to slowly fade from Batterskull and incorporate it as a quasi-Enlightened Tutor that fits the cc2 CB curve in Thopter shells. Batterskull doesn't seem that reliable anymore, even tho' it will still see play. Stoneforge isn't that great under the perspective of having net a card at sorcery speed, if that card depends strictly on her.
Landstill has the advantage, now, of playing more linear games, where the critical turns (the first two) are more streamlined and the early-game defense is more safe. Of course Mental Misstep used to be a great tool for us too, but in exchange we now can count on safe Spell Snares and Stps /Path to Exiles (for those running it). This improves Standstill's critical requirements of an empty board, which is generally good against the metagame.Vial aggro, Storm combo and Dredge will be the problematic matchups, as they always used to be. Standstill was and will be a dead card, here. The first, though, can be beaten with tight play and the right anti-aggro configuration; the second and the third can be marginally improved pre-board with minor tweaks (Vendilion Clique maindeck), but are still horrible (they were even with Misstep).
Despites this, landstill has to me the potential to thrive on a new metagame where Counterbalance and Zoo are going to surge again given Storm Combo and Merfolk are coming back as the pivotal archetypes.
Unlike Counterbalance, LS has the potential to just ignore GSZ, because its advantage engine revolve around card draw and the relevant permanents, Elspeth and Jace, hard to deal with. The only advantage of running Counterbalance is to have a solution against recurring Punishing Fire, but that can be dealt with Wasteland. It's way less a permanent control and more a tempo one; plus, it can solve the Thrun problem by running Wrath of God.
Against CB itself, Landstill has relatively easy life as soon as it reaches 3-4 mana and can begin to drop bombs or just reach EE+Academy Ruins. Plus, having 3 Spell Snares helps a lot. They also just can't fight under a Standstill.
----------------------
I'm not claiming Landstill to become a tier1. It won't, in fact, just because Storm and Dredge exist and are going to be significant again, and the metagame in 2011 is too varied for pure control to be a frontline contender.
I'm just skeleptical about the advantages of running Countertop instead of Landstill, which is more suited to win against midrange decks (I'm also refering to Junk, which will come back).
Counterbalance already had serious weaknesses and was getting weaker and weaker, so I'm not expecting it to return as the premier form of control. Too many variables have been added to the mix (Vial, Thrun, Zenith, manlands, Pyroblasts, Clique, Order) to make it reliable as it used to be, say, in 2010.
edit: to make it clear, this is what I'm testing now.
4 Strand
3 Tarn
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Factories
2 Wasteland
1 Ruins
1 Karakas
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 EE
1 Wrath of God
1 Crucible
1 Shackles
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Elspeth/1 + 3rd EE
----------------------------
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Spell Pierce
3 Meddling Mage
1 E. Canonist
1 Path to Exile (aiming to cut it)
1 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Disenchant/Serenity/Energy Flux/Negate
In early tests it wins pretty handily against any form of Zoo, Bant, CB and UW SFM-based decks. Merfolk is hard but doable. Shackles and Crucibles are godly here. It also rips it against NORug, but well, without Misstep that's not very difficult.