[Deck] Dredge

@Izor

Agreed on that, but there again, I tend to favor DDD strategy more than the usual, I guess...

Also, keep in mind that I believe that no hand without Dredger is really keepable (some of them are, but it's a really tough decision), and thus, my chance on having Land+Dredger+Discard(not necessarily permanent discard) is better than with 15 lands (since you have to count careful as a discard that can be cast out of 14 lands).
The diference is marginal, but in the end, I preffer the higher amount of dredgers when using Firestorm.

@Gui: I do believe Tribe can be as good as Ancient Grudge to fight hate. If you replace your BT's for Tribes (instead of Grudges) you can play around Relic/Tormod and as a bonus, you get more consistency.
My list is this:

15 lands

13 Dredgers (1 Darkblast)

4 Careful Study
4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Ichorid
1x Dread Return
4x Firestorm
4x PImp

SB:
3x Tireless Tribe
4x Nature's Claim
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Purify the Grave
1x DR
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona

Now I have some crazy ideas, like playing 61 cards, and add the 4th Ichorid. Replacing Purify the Grave in SB for some proactive package, maybe a combo package.
Fighting Surgical is needed, but Purify the Grave have disappointed me in this function, so I was thinking in return the draw spells on G3, and taking a combo position.

Well, no, don't play 61 cards. You want as much consistancy as you can get from moebas, and want your dredgers at full peak, as well as the highest chance of getting Golgari Grave Troll.
I had this idea once too, and gave up on it because a friend gave me these arguments.

Just a small correction, Izor, I was with the wrong numbers in my head and corrected myself. The real best chance is when you use 15 lands and 13 dredgers, 8 draw spells and 7 discard. You were right when saying your chance of getting a playable hand is better, but as I said before, it's marginally better (~0,2%) and there's still the DDD chance.

Well, bottomline, the difference is really small for this, and could be up to whether or not you favor DDD and not fizzling with firestorms.

(apologize for my mistake, but I keep on running this simulations for a lot of combinations and thinking on which to use and for which reason, then sometimes I have to double-check to remember some data.)

Mojeh, I am actually back to the exact same maindeck. I am still not sold on Dr Main butvI have to have both 3 Purify and 2 Elesh Norn. There is an insane amount of Reanimator and Ichorid around here. While I win the first game most of the time, They all pack Elesh Norn,and you just lose to that.( Although I once Firestormed an Elesh Norn away., I tell you I felt like a King)

@HokusSchmokus I see... if your meta is full of mirror and Reanimator, then probably you must stick with Purify the Grave and 2 Elesh, indeed. But what do you think about swapping Purify the Grave for a combo package, in order to race Blue decks? I mean, they'll need 2 Surgical (1 + 1 Snapcaster) to actually win the game, so it's safe to say we have 2 turns to win the game consistently.
In game 3, while on the play, we can just return the Breakthroughs (if they once was sided out) add the combo package and win before they can double Surgical us.


@Gui: I understand your point, and some of my friends agree, actually, the common sense agrees. But in the post-board games, this slot can make we sideboard with more consistency. Also, that's an option to keep 4 Ichorids in your 75, without sacrifice a sb slot.
I did the math once, but unfortunately it was long time ago, but I remember the odds weren't that decreased in 61 cards. We virtually draw 3-6 cards per turn, so basically the only statistic we care about is concerning our opening hands. I'm gonna play a local tournament this Sunday with the list I posted above, probably with 61 cards and with DR, Sphinx and another target in the Purify the Grave's slots.
I'll let you guys know my opinion afterwards.

Hokus, not trying to disrespect your gangster but why do you not advocate running DR in the main? I'm pretty set on 2 MD but you obviously have a lot more experience running this deck in a competitive environment and I'm really just trying to understand this exclusion.

An aside; the last tournament I was in I faced a black/white deadguy variant and got a mudhole stomped in my ass by the fantastic tag team of jotun grunt and yixlid jailer. My only out against a resolved jailer would have been to hit it with a DB but I had already dredged it a turn previously. To all of you who don't advocate running firestorm MD, how do you cope with a jailer resolving?

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Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

To all of you who don't advocate running firestorm MD, how do you cope with a jailer resolving?

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I usually eat lots of rocky road ice cream after being kicked curbside by a jailer.

I didn't even know people still played Jailer..

@Hokus. How did you manage to firestorm an Elesh? O.o

Did he really have like 5 dudes out? xD

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Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

Hokus, not trying to disrespect your gangster but why do you not advocate running DR in the main? I'm pretty set on 2 MD but you obviously have a lot more experience running this deck in a competitive environment and I'm really just trying to understand this exclusion.

An aside; the last tournament I was in I faced a black/white deadguy variant and got a mudhole stomped in my ass by the fantastic tag team of jotun grunt and yixlid jailer. My only out against a resolved jailer would have been to hit it with a DB but I had already dredged it a turn previously. To all of you who don't advocate running firestorm MD, how do you cope with a jailer resolving?

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You don't cope. Nobody really plays Yixlid Jailer and Jotun Grunt, don't waste your time on that, lol. If you're really worried about that, you should try Contagion. Janky, but might help.

Sometimes you just lose, and that's it. I remember once when I was playing T.E.S in a local tournament, and got paired with a Goblins player. I just thought: Uh, cakewalk :D

After winning G1 easily, he brought his whole sideboard in: 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Mindbreak Trap, 4 Chalice of the Void, 2 Earwig Squad and 1 Duress. It happens...

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Originally Posted by Gui

Ivanpei, long time no see! ^^

I have something to say about this, 13 dredgers or 12 is a relative topic. First of all, with 13 dredgers (1DB), I don't mull DB hands, because 3 is usually (not 100%, but none is) enough to get another dredger which will dredge for more. Also, DB is recurring most of the time.

Second thing is, with 15 lands and 12 dredgers, your chance of opening a hand with Dredger+Discard+Draw+Land is lower than with 14 lands and 13 dredgers. This is actually the only configuration that is better than the regular 15lands/12dredgers/8draw/8discard if you don't want to remove the discard guys or DRs (or, 43 slots for the 'combo').

And last, I follow the crowd that is using Firestorm maindeck. In this case, not stalling when not having a discard is more important. Having that extra dredger helps a lot in that, even if you have to dredge for 3 sometimes.

I currently use 2 DRs as well, but mosty because I don't have room in sideboard. I believe 1DR MD is enough. And no DR targets.

And here a question: Do you think Tribe is more important than Ancient Grudge to fight artifact hate? If you had 4 slots in side only, which would you use?

And an addendum: I think my test with Faithless Looting will be in the place of Breakthrough. I know how abusive BT is, but I wanna test the consistancy vs. speed to reach a conclusion

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I agree, but the question is: what's being cut for the 13th dredger? I'm assuming you play 14 lands and 2 DR, that means you need to cut another card which ATM the weakest slot is careful study.

I do have a super consistent build with 15 lands, 13 dredgers and 4 firestorm with no MD Dread returns. I don't think Careful should be cut. It's just such a powerful and flexible card. In that build, the objective is to bust slow blue control, so max consistency is the key. Pre board, you simply do not need DR to kick ass, it's usually overkill. However post board, DR becomes more important because Surgical Extraction is very popular now due to snapcaster.

My board looks like this:
2 DR
1 Terastodon
1 Iona
4 Chain (Its more flexible than claim, plus you really are using this to bounce leylines, its unlikely they can recast it after you bounce it, this card is also good against peacekeeper, Reanimator)
4 Grudge
1 Ray of revelation
2 Surgical Extraction (Free spells FTW, helps you peek at opponent's hand as well) or Flex slot

Against blue snapcaster decks, I board in blind like this:

+ 2 DR, - 1 Careful, -1 Ichorid.

It's pointless to board in anti hate because you don't know if you're facing leylines, surgical, purify or crypt/relic. My strategy is to board in more power with DR so you don't get caught with your pants down when you get surgicaled. DR increases your threat count and if either bridge/ichorid is removed you can still use DR to grab a giant troll for the beatdown plan. I only board my anti hate in G3 if I have to.

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Originally Posted by Que

I didn't even know people still played Jailer..

@Hokus. How did you manage to firestorm an Elesh? O.o

Did he really have like 5 dudes out? xD

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It was vs Manaless Dredge, a total asshat and smiling in the arrogant Now-i-fucked-you-way when he resolved Elesh Norn.His Board was Sphinx , Nether Shadow, 2 Ichorid and Elesh Norn , I had only a GGT but was at 8 life with him being at 5. So I smiled back and killed him.

@ Wu, I actually play a DR Main atm. But only bc I have to. I am of the oppinion that Dread Return is always nice to have but also almost never needed to win game One.Bc it makes your dredging worse I opt for playing it only postboard and I am still sold on this. Also I do not have more competitive experiance with this Deck than other ppl. I just played and failed at a GP.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I agree, but the question is: what's being cut for the 13th dredger? I'm assuming you play 14 lands and 2 DR, that means you need to cut another card which ATM the weakest slot is careful study.

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Hmmm... no, actually no, I don't use 4 ichorids, so I just swapped the 15th land for the 13th dredger.
I never cut careful study, and I rarely side it out, I think its consistancy is always worth it. Actually, I've been thinking that I'll try switching Breakthrough for Faithless Looting exactly because of that.

I agree, DR is very important. I'm currently with 2 ideas of sideboard, one of which I stress anti-hate, and one in which I carry DR targets instead. (still to decide whether coffin purge is worth it or not) If I decide not to carry coffin purge, I'll use only 1 DR maindeck, and let the second for G2-G3 in case I side in a target. In the other version, the side is clogged and all I can carry is a DR target in SB:

Stressing anti-hate:
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Emerald Charm (only against leyline)
SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Coffin Purge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
or -Emerald/Coffin, +1 Elesh -> the big DR targets

Light on anti-hate
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Emerald Charm
SB: 4 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 1 Realm Razer
SB: 1 Sphinx of Lost Truths or Angel of Despair

My list, the usual suspect, is like this:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
4 Firestorm
Or -1 DR +1 Tarnished

I guess I'll just stick with firestorm maindeck to answer the dude who still plays jailer and grunts.

edit:
I recently cut a DR in favor of an extra citadel. Goldfished a little bit, played a friend a few rounds. I think I'll have to keep it in because having to mull a god hand because I didn't have that one rainbow land to go off with makes me want to scratch a face.

Hey guys, I'm going to represent Dredge at an upcoming event - people know I'll play the deck as I'm quite popular here, hence I want to tune my list to handle the various problems I'm going to face.

1) Surgical Extraction (a few players even pack 'em maindeck)
2) Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3) Delver of Secrets

Against Surgical Extraction I was considering a 2x Golgari Thug/1x Darkblast split (instead of 3x Golgari Thug - if I'm lucky enough I can kill Delver before it flips into that 3/2 thing), with 2 additional Darkblast in my sideboard. Against Elesh Norn (which is widely played because of my previous spreading o' the Dredge Creed + Reanimator) I thought the best solution could be Purify the Grave, which doubles as a protection against Surgical Extraction (I'm happier by exiling a single copy of a card than having all of them reach Saturn). I also need to play fast Dread Return against the mirror (most people here play with Sphinx of Lost Truths and Zealot) and storm combo/Spiral Tide, so I'm playing 3x DR and maindeck Iona.

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// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [OD] Careful Study
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [ISD] Purify the Grave
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [???] ?
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I'm entirely dropping Ray of Revelation because of its lack of effectiveness, and I have a spare slot. Any suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

Hey guys, I'm going to represent Dredge at an upcoming event - people know I'll play the deck as I'm quite popular here, hence I want to tune my list to handle the various problems I'm going to face.

1) Surgical Extraction (a few players even pack 'em maindeck)
2) Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3) Delver of Secrets

Against Surgical Extraction I was considering a 2x Golgari Thug/1x Darkblast split (instead of 3x Golgari Thug - if I'm lucky enough I can kill Delver before it flips into that 3/2 thing), with 2 additional Darkblast in my sideboard. Against Elesh Norn (which is widely played because of my previous spreading o' the Dredge Creed + Reanimator) I thought the best solution could be Purify the Grave, which doubles as a protection against Surgical Extraction (I'm happier by exiling a single copy of a card than having all of them reach Saturn). I also need to play fast Dread Return against the mirror (most people here play with Sphinx of Lost Truths and Zealot) and storm combo/Spiral Tide, so I'm playing 3x DR and maindeck Iona.

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// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [OD] Careful Study
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [ISD] Purify the Grave
SB: 2 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [???] ?
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I'm entirely dropping Ray of Revelation because of its lack of effectiveness, and I have a spare slot. Any suggestions?

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11 Dredgers in the maindeck seems risky. Your chaindredging might fizzle once in a while. I'd go for -1 Ichorid +1 Golgair Thug, and add the 4th Ichorid on the spare slot in the sideboard.

He does play 8 discard dorks, to be fair. So chain dredging isn't as unreliable, since he'll need only one dredger. As for your list, I'd move an Ichorid to the board, add another Citadel and call it a day. You seem to have a plan for the problems you're expecting.

A single darkblast in the maindeck answers delver of secrets. You would probably be better off finding space for 3-4 firestorms in your SB if you're concerned about creature heavy strategies, also decks that run delver don't just run delver. How are multiple darkblasts going to help against a big tarmogoyf or if the opponent's board has a goyf, snapcaster and a delver? I'd rather have a firestorm in hand than 1-2 DB. I might be wrong but isn't coffin purge easier to cast than purify the grave? Different metas and dadadada but here I would never, ever cut ray of revelation. Sorry to see it underperforming in your current meta but thems the breaks. Good luck and I hope you place well.

@digital devil:
Elesh Norn in SB?

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Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm

I might be wrong but isn't coffin purge easier to cast than purify the grave?

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Not really. Getting every mana (except blue) is the same when you run 10~11 gold lands, wether it's green, red, black or white.

Coffin Purge is pretty in the old fashion magic, but Purify the Grave might be a little better in corner cases (namely Iona on Black). Anyway, I'd run a split.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

(Iona on Black).

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Totally didn't consider this. Thank you.