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Price of Progress is a problem? Goblins can operate with one land and an Aether Vial or couple mountains and some non basic. Goblins can always wasteland it's own lands whenever needed.
Wasteland prone versus countermagic prone is tough to foresee. I would think landing uncounterable ringleaders and piledrivers is better than possibly being blown out by wasteland. I certainly don't know though.
Been doing some goldfishing today. Cavern of Souls + Gempalm/Tarfire/Weirding could be a problem for us. Drawing Cavern+Wasteland+Gempalm/Tarfire/Weirding kinda sucks.
No more or less than Rishadan Port (or Wasteland).Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Why not cut wasteland from the list?
Ok, I know to many that will seem absurd. But in the current meta wasteland can be really bad.
Maverick just says thank you when we waste them, same with any deck running Knight o' Reliq.
In my local meta at least, there are enough Pox / Loam decks running around that I am seriously considering cutting waste.
Waste has defined Legacy for so long that any competent deck is prepared for it and can play around it. If Cavern was our only non basic, would that be such a problem?
Cutting Rishadan Port for Cavern seems to be the most logical move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyped
Wasteland isn't there so much for land screw aspect. It is more there for stopping utility lands. Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Academy Ruins, Blinkmoth Nexus, etc.
However keeping an opponent off a color when they splash for red/black for plague/firespout is a strong move.
If you do go for the full twelve non basics then I believe tarfire should be Mogg Fanatic and Wierding should be cut.
I could see cutting back on a Wasteland or two depending on the metagame, but while Wasteland's often used for mana denial or color screw, the fact that it answers troublesome utility lands shouldn't be undervalued. Having an out to Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Grove of the Burnwillows, Volrath's Stronghold, etc. tends to come up for me once an event. The mana/color screw plan can be line against UWx a lot of the time too.
I guess I'm just not feeling it as a bad card at the moment, could definitely be a difference of meta I suppose.
I recently adopted Mogg Fanatic back into my list. I think he's playable again, as he's very good against Maverick. He's occupying the Tarfire slots of jrw1985's list back a few posts. Tarfire doesn't really hit much that Mogg Fanatic doesn't - SFM, QPM, and opposing 2/2 goblins are probably the first things that come to mind. For the most part it hits similar threats - Delver, Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancer, and can keep Maverick in check - Thalia, Noble/Arbor, Scryb Ranger, etc. Mogg Fanatic's added utility against Bridge from Below, or biding time against Umezawa's Jitte can be pretty outstanding as well.
I was running:
Land 22
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Rishadan Port
Spells 6
4 Aether Vial
2 Pyrokinesis
Goblins 32
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
Sideboard 15
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scapper
1 Boartusk Leige
and am leaning towards a change of:
-3 Mountain
-1 Goblin Sharpshooter
+3 Cavern of Souls
+1 Pyrokinesis
I think Cavern of Souls is going to be totally solid in this deck. I don't think it's bonkers, but occasionally providing uncounterability to Goblin Lackey will win a game. It's another form of inevitability (IE in addition to: the Vial curve, 12+ 2 for 1s). Having yet another ability to cheat 3-4cc cards through Daze/FoW is nothing to scoff at. I'm could see running 3-4 I was going to start with testing 3, since it's less relevant in multiples.
Overall I was finding Sharpshooter hard to maximize with only 4 Haste lords in the list. Running 2 of them is probably overkill, they're clunky to draw into. I think going with a cheaper option would be better.
@from Cairo
I like your list even thou I still prefer to use the WI/chieftain route. I don't know why you include a single Rishadan Port nor the Barbarian Rings. A single port would have almost no impact on mana denial and barbarian rings don't usually hit threshold when it needed it the most. I think discarding them and adding 3 mountains or using 3 Cavern of Souls would be better.
I think 1 sharpshooter should be enough as you mentioned, it is kinda of awkward to draw into sometimes. Personally, I would also switch the Skirk Prospector to either another Fanatic or Mogg War Marshal.
Sharpshooter --> Mogg War Marshal
Skirk Prospector --> Mogg War Marshal
That was my thoughts too. Mana denial is nice, but sometimes you just have to cast things. While Force/Daze are not the only answers to turn one Lackey they are all some decks have to offer. It also makes Mogg Fanatic better since they can be, with caverns, a guaranteed turn two play to eliminate your opponents x/1 creature and let Lackey get the damage in.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
It's not a single Port. It's the 5th mana denial land card. Theres a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by wert
And what's MvM?
Ops... I meant the Mogg War Marshal. I would correct it the earlier post too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
i used to run 8 colourless mana in the form of 4x wasteland and 4 x rishadan ports. I've dropped the ports as they don't seem effective enough any more, but i was wondering if 4 mishras factories would be good in their place for more pressure on the board?
so 4 x wasteland and 4 x mishras factory as 8 colourless mana sources instead. Comments? Is this an idea?
I don't think that a vanilla 2/2 that could potentially be a 3/3 on defense is something we need. If it was, I would run Mutavault before I ran Factory simply because Mutavault is a goblin when it counts (i.e. Gempalm Incinerator, power bonus/haste from Chieftain, can be thrown by Siege-gang, +2/+0 for Piledriver etc.)Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Either way, I'd much rather spend that :1: on another goblin or some removal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wert
As ScatmanX pointed out, the singleton Rishadan Port makes more sense to be viewed as a 5th piece of mana denial. It's clearly less powerful than Wasteland thus the 4/1 split.
The Barbarian Rings have played well for me. They've been the last two points for me a couple times, they've teamed up with other removal to take down bigger guys. The times they've been relevant were longer grindy games, where the Threshold restriction wasn't an issue.
I've been really happy with the Skirk Prospector as well. Obviously there's the Sharpshooter combo. He's helped power out some turn 2 Warchiefs and occasionally he's fueled some crazy turns with Warchief and Matrons. Additionally, it provides a way to keep opposing Jitte inactive.
I'm tired of loosing to jitte.
All of those little flying creatures (including spirit token) and flash creatues (Clique, Snapcaster, Scryb Ranger, aven mindsensor)-can't handle them without leaving my gameplan...
After playtesting with 2 pieced of artifact removal MD or Skirk Prospector or Mogg Fanatic or tons of removal I came to a solution that has suited me the best so far: playing Jitte myself.
Since Gobbolord suggest to pack removal like there is no tomorrow, I thought instead of a second Pyrokiesis or Lightning bolt I could just pack Jitte. It can take care of creatures as well and trade positively. It can be a thread to combo, since it can make life. It is a serious threat to my opponent, 'cause it can give +2/+2 and it takes care of opposing jitte, even when it's flashed in by SFM.
You just need to draw it like pyrokinesis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
Okay, so how many would you play? Two? I think it's a fine idea, but since 4 vials is a nobrainer and i allready play 3 pyrokinesis, i really wouldn't like adding more non-goblin stuff.. Also: we are more dependant of jitte than they are. When we play jitte, they just search theirs with mystic and legendary the crap out of them. We are left without our flying-bugger-killer, and they still have their flying stuff.
Ideas?
The whole point of playing Jitte was to kill opposing Jitte with its legendary function. And if they tutor for a solution either with SFM or GSZ (Pridemage) then they need an answer and don't look for another threat like Batterscull or Ooze/knight. I just realized how good it is in other matchups. That's why I said it replaced Pyrokinesis, sicne this is not effective in each matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hencules
I think 2 is a good idea, since that's what I'm playtesting with right now.
I'm down at 1 pyrokinesis. Together with 21 lands, 2 Jitte and 4 vial. I can still afford to play gobins with 32 cards...
Does anyone have any Cavern testing they can report on? I've only goldfished with it up to this point and was wondering if anyone had experience with its interactivity against Wasteland/PoP.
Also, what kind of build seems more effective at this time with a Cavern manabase? One favoring Chieftain/Instigator or Warchief/Piledriver?
I'm leaning toward the Chieftain Instigator build, but Warchief/Piledriver builds seem to be the ones putting up placings at SCG opens.
Like the idea, but since I don't lose to equipament in quite some time, will not be testing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper
If you do, please run them along with Warren Instigator or/and Bloodmark Mentor. Firs/Double Strike with Jitte is gamebreaking.
Because no one plays the Chieftain Version there... =/Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
-----
This is what I'm testing atm:
4 Wasteland
16 Montanha
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Matron Goblin
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Tarfire
2 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Pyroknesis
1 Kiki Jiki
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Bloodmark Mentor (great against L.Souls, batterskull, and make some evil vlocking possibilities)
Tons of removal plan has worked well so far. I feel I have the uper hand against any creature MU, and most Agroo-control. That allowed me to work with the SB for different MU's:
3 Surgical Extraction (Dredge, combos in general)
3 Relic of Progenitus (Dredge, Maverick)
3 Pithing Needle (UW/Esper, and lot of others stuff (elves,affinity,Loam, etc))
2 Thorn of Amethyst (better agains Hive Mind and Burn/Enchantress)
2 Mindbreak Trap (better against TES and Belcher)
2 Pyroblast (Merfolk, any monoU deck (not UW or bant or whatever), and almost all combo decks.
What do you guys think of this approach? It's the removal heavy one, and I'm loving it (para-pa-pa-paaaa)
(ps:did 3-1 yesterday, only losing the mirro to a bad muligan decision: G3 kept 3 lands, Knesis, Chieftain, Shooter and Stingscourge. Should have mulliganed... Won against Stasis 2-0, Maverick 2-0 and Bant 2-0, all easy games)
Edit: @Jrw: Did no more testing with caverns, since it'll take me a long time to aquire then, and by then you guys will already have a good answer for that =]
Played a quick 4 rounder last night (2nd) with the following list:
4x Wasteland
17x Mountain
4x Lackey
4x Matron
4x Chieftain
4x Ringleader
3x Warren Instigator
2x Siege-gang Commander
2x Mogg War Marshal
2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Stingscourger
2x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Tarfire
1x Pyrokinesis
4x Aether Vial
Sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Shattering Spree
2x Anarchy
3x Red Elemental Blast
Some thoughts:
Piledriver vs. Mogg War Marshal: I decided to try out 0 Piledrivers (I had been running 2) and opted for War Marshal instead. Overall, I was happy with this decision. War Marshal into Chieftain is harder to deal with for my opponents than Piledriver into Chieftain, especially since pro-blue isn't all that relevant right now. Lastly, War Marshal made my Gempalms relevant again.
Kiki Jiki vs. the 4th Tarfire: I took gobolord's thoughts to heart about running more removal, and it absolutely paid off. Matron for Tarfire won me a game round 2, as did just naturally drawing them. Kiki Jiki was fun, but he was always very win more. The extra removal is a much better top deck, and is always welcome in the opening 7.
4x Tarfire 1x Pyrokiesis vs. 3x Tarfire 2x Pyrokinesis: This is something I am going to test out next week to free up at least one sideboard slot. 5 removal spells seems right to me, now I just need to tweak the numbers. I'm finding that I side Pyro in quite a bit, so I think it's time to try out an extra one in the main deck.
I've been testing cavern after getting my set. The card is ridiculously broken in this deck. I am very confident it puts goblins back on the Legacy map. It pretty much gives you the early game Unstoppable Lackey (they don't always have plow) or pushes through the critical ringleader/matron.
Usually how goblins loses its games is when the last bomb in hand gets dealt with. This is usually matron/ringleader/sgc and we go into top deck mode. Before we can recover, we get steamrolled by goyfs/delver/batterskull. What cavern does is make sure your bombs resolve. No more playing around daze or getting blown out by a force of will. The card is insane. I'm playing the following manabase which is less stable but working OK so far:
1 Mountain
3 Badlands
1 Taiga (sb splash tinstreet hooligan)
8 Red fetch
4 Cavern
4 Waste
2 Port
I guess I could cut the ports, but I feel more comfortable having a good land disruption suit.