Makes sense. So E. Tutor + Blood Moon + Humility post SB, then keep Counterbalance and counterpspells in to try to slow their setup (countering Sensei's Divining Top / Crop Rotation / Expedition Map).Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
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Makes sense. So E. Tutor + Blood Moon + Humility post SB, then keep Counterbalance and counterpspells in to try to slow their setup (countering Sensei's Divining Top / Crop Rotation / Expedition Map).Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Only Top of those you mentioned the other 2 are stopped by Blood Moon anyway (and I need to save counters to make sure it comes into play)
I don't even counter Candelabra (thought I only find it online)
I have been testing Miracles and trying to find the last few board cards. I was hoping to get input for what has performed well for other pilots. Below is my current list which is fairly stock.
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Mystic Gate
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
1 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Misdirection
3 Force of Will
3 Terminus
And these are the cards that I have played in my board for the past couple events that I played in and the general MUs where I plan to use most the cards. I don't necessarily board in all copies vs matchups list but at least board some.
Cards that have been performing well
3 REB/Pryoblast - Omni-Tell, Sneak & Show, Miracles, Merfolk, Deathblade, Shardless BUG
1 Pithing Needle - Lilana decks (BUG, Jund), Goblins, Sneak & Show, Misc
1 EE - Delver variants, Maverick, Elves
1 Blood Moon - Shardless BUG, Deathblade, greedy manabases
1 Entreat the Angels - Shardless BUG, Deathblade, Miracles, Jund, Maverick
1 Moat - Deathblade, Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves
2 Rest in Peace - RUG, Reanimator, Shardless BUG, Jund
1 Misdirection - Shardless BUG, Hymn decks, Anti-Abrupt Decay
1 Wear // Tear - Death/Stone blade, UB Tezzeret, Omni-Tell, Sneak & Show, catch-all
Cards I'm unsure about
1 Pyroclasm - Deathblade, Goblins, Maverick, Elves
1 Enlightened Tutor - Not for any MUs in particular but just to add redundancy to the deck.
Cards that have been bad
1 BEB - Goblins, Sneak & Show, Burn
1 Sulfur Elemental - Maverick, Death & Taxes
Cards that I have not yet tried
Flusterstorm - TES/Ant, Omni-Tell, Sneak&Show, combo variants, control decks
Ethersworn Cannonist - TES/Ant, Omni-Tell, Sneak&Show, combo variants
Is there a reason you don't run Venser? Venser could be the saving grace against Sneak and Show sometimes, and it's very useful with Karakas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gekoratel
It was in a list that I played at SCG Philly but after more testing there were too few matchups where the card shined and many where 4 mana was too much for the effect. I think it is strong when you are running 2 Karakas but in a list with just 1 it isn't a necessity. Against the card Show&Tell you still have Jace to bounce the creature they put in and vs Sneak Attack they will just need one more mana to have the creature attacking you again if its Emerakul. I do think Venser is strong in that matchup because the Remand effect is powerful vs 3/4 CMC spells but I was unimpressed with him against the rest of the field especially DeathBlade which is gaining popularity.
Venser may also get stronger post M14 rules changes because your Karakas are going to live more often which is something to consider. If I was to add it back I would likely cut the 3rd Spell Pierce, the Detention Sphere has been strong for me.
http://postimg.org/image/qmlxpvkiz/
500$ 0/1, 1/2, Mountains.
Guys, I was not looking for help on how to beat 12Post. That deck is practically non-existent. My post was about why I choose not to play Blood Moon.
Gekoratel, Sulfur Elemental is one of only two super-narrow cards that I play. But I think it is really good. Do you not like it because you don't come across matchups where it is good very often, or because you don't think it does enough against those decks?
I really want to know why so many people are running Spell Pierce (maindeck)? I'm asking, because someone like Raphael Levy explicitly said in his article, that he was happy to have dismissed them altogether, and I came to the same conclusion (but I run 4 in my SB).
Also, what makes Terminus so much better than Supreme Verdict? It's not that there are so many Supreme Verdict-resistant creatures in this format (as in Standard), whereas the uncounterability is highly relevant in this format, but not only that, this is also the format where being blue is actually quite a good thing.
And last but not least, I think that Cunning Wish is much better than Detention Sphere, simply because Cunning Wish is relevant against combo and Detention is a dead card.
I personally like them (3 MB) because I like to have, for example, turn 2 Top Pierce backupt. Also, against combo, pierces are very useful making them waste 2 mana or just stopping them 1 more turn. My counter package is always:
3 Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of will
+1 counterspell SB
And never got disappointed running Pierces.
Hey everybody,
I've been reading the thread for more information about UW Miracles and I've definitely picked up a lot of good tips. I wanted to make this deck for my next tournament, and I'm looking at playing the following list:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Rest in Peace
2 Energy Field
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
5 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Counterbalance
Couple of comments re: card availability before you dig into the deck:
1) I don't have access to Volcanic Islands. I'd love to run REBs and Blood Moon, but I just don't have the cards. =\
2) I might not be able to get the Humility in time (bought it on eBay and it's 4th of July here...).
I'm finding that I almost never side in the 3rd ETutor in the SB and that Spell Pierces aren't super useful. I also have a lot of problems with Shardless BUG and Merfolk (among the two decks I've tested) and I do reasonably well against Deathblade. Rest in Peace has definitely been a house and I'm pretty happy with the RiP/Helm style of the deck.
Some questions regarding sideboarding and other deck choices:
1) Should I run a 3rd Entreat in the sideboard? I find myself running short on wincons sometimes. What about a 4th Terminus?
2) How useful IS Spell Pierce?
3) Is there any way to stop Liliana early? I usually try to side in V.Cliques and Pithing Needles against her, but she absolutely wrecks me if she lands early.
4) Is Misdirection solid against Shardless BUG? I've seen some discussion on the previous page against it and it seems good to get Abrupt Decay, Ancestral Vision, Discard Spells, etc...
5) How killer is ANT/Storm decks? I've played a small sample size, but post sideboard, siding in Ethersworn Canonist absolutely wrecks them, especially behind countermagic. I'm just wondering if the 2 Ethersworn Canonists are necessary.
I'd love to hear people's suggestions. Keep in mind that the tournament is pretty close, so hopefully people have small tunings and overall suggestions for attacking the decks that UW Miracles has problems with. I really like playing this deck, but I know it has some weak spots and it'd be nice to hear what you all have to say. Thanks!
It was more about playing two tournaments and not running into the MUs, I can imagine it is very excellent if you do get paired in those MUs esp against Death & Taxes. With GWb Maverick winning SCG Philly it might gain some steam making it a better board option. Also thanks for your work on the deck I have learned a lot of seeing differences from Top 8 to Top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
I've found pierces invaluable. Great vs combo, protecting your threats, stopping planeswalkers, etc. I can't bring myself to cut any of my 3 main.
But you have to keep in mind what cards you would run in their place: instead you could run more counterspells and more Vendilion Cliques.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaosjr
1. No, no one runs 3rd Entreat. 4th Terminus/Supreme Verdict is debatable, depends on your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by SageShadows
2. Very useful, that's your only back up if you don't have FoW, yet Show and Tell is trying combo off
3. That's the fundamental question people here have addressed it, that's why you need Spell Pierce to stop it from resolving. That's what Detention Sphere/Oblivion Ring is for, if resolved.
4. Misdirection/Divert is more valuable to you, because you want RiP in play for as long as you can. Of course, Misdirect/Divert a hymn could win you the match-up.
5. You have a decent match-up against storm combo in general, it's up to your meta.
You don't need the second Energy Field, and drawing it by itself is just about the worst feeling ever. I would definitely want more graveyard hate in the board - 3 RIPs will not beat dredge by itself. The extra tutor and counterspell in the board seem like low-impact cards, not what I'd want out of the board. Maybe something like flusterstorm over counterspell? I would swap the Detenton Sphere in the board for an Oblivion Ring, as a decent number of Show and Tell deckas have REB and there's no reason to let them kill your O-Ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by SageShadows
1) I don't like a 3rd entreat but a lot of folks do. I'd also generally board another wrath over a path, but path is fine too depending on what you expect.
2) I think Spell Pierce is rubbish and wouldn't play more than maybe one, but I think I'm in the minority here.
3) Liliana is a problem for sure, You need to time cliques / entreat to get her or board things like celestial purge.
4 )I personally don't think misdirection does enough but it is a valid option. Shardless bug is a bad matchup, not sure how to fix it without red, Blood Moon is my trump there.
5) How much storm / Omni-Tell do you expect to play against? It's definitely the best board card you can have by being hate and a clock.
Elspeth and Snapcaster Mage are quite good against liliana and shardless bug without being narrow specific hate; I would push those numbers a bit.
Miracle hates non-creature spells, like planeswalker or hymn. Spell Pierce is the best to stop opponent from resolving these early. FoW is not even that good, since you have to 2-for-1 early game. I don't see how you guys would arrive at that conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
Have you ever been locked by Port + Thalia from Death and Taxes? Or have you keep being land denied by RUG Delver? The problem is not regenerate, the problem is sorcery speed and mana color requirement.
There're multiple incorrect logic when you say Cunning Wish is > than DS. Many combo decks run Defense Grid in the SB, how's Detention a dead card when it interacts with Defense Grid? Also, Detention is one reason Show and Tell player doesn't risk himself from playing that card straight out, another interaction against combo. Detention also interact with High Tide's Candelabra of Tawnos. Hence, your assessment of dead card just appears wrong to me. To me, Cunning Wish might give you a little more advantage against storm/high tide, but you're playing Miracle, do you really want to sacrifice that card slot for something you are already somewhat in favor of?
Each person is going to have differing opinions based on their metagame and experiences with the deck so I would look over the recommendations and see what applies to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by SageShadows
1. Since your on the E. Tutor RIP/Helm plan win conidtions shouldn't be as much of a concern. I think in the more controlling version like oarsman's that the 3rd Entreat is good out of the board.
2. Spell Pierce is strong against stopping cards that don't matchup well against Swords/Terminus such as Planeswalkers and combo decks of the format. By not running people may still play around it but I couldn't imagine playing Miracles without at least 2 MD.
3. Liliana is one of the worst cards for the deck as many have mentioned. Your plan is the same as mine, also you can occasionally kill it with Misdirected Decay but not often.
4. I think Misdirection is pretty solid as a whole stopping the cards you mentioned but its purpose is primarily keeping your Counterbalances around. In matchups like Deathblade and BUG if you don't have Counter/Top there deck is doing more powerful things with a higher threat density but when you have a way of protecting the CB/Top soft-lock then many of their cards become blanks. Also one cool thing I found out is you can kill an opposing Geist of Saint Traft by Misdirecting their Abrupt Decay because MisD is not targeting but Abrupt.
5. These are some of your better MUs so I wouldn't overboard but respect Decay in post-board games and have a plan to beat that card.
But Spell Pierce is only a reactive gameplan, more often than not, that hymn resolves anyway. Can't we just have a better proactive gameplan? I prefer not to gamble to have it in my starting hand, but to have the long-term advantage by drawing into superior stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
As I said, you could run more counterspells, Cliques in respect to disruption and SCM and Elspeth in respect to card-advantage.
Supreme Verdict – okay, I can see that.
The thing with Detention Sphere is that I don't like it in general for a few reasons:
- it is only good against 50% of the combo decks (but not so much against Storm, Reanimator), whereas Cunning Wish is only slow, but useful in every combo-matchup: Wish is just more calculable.
- D Sphere sucks against Abrupt Decay; it also sucks against every other form of enchantment hate like EE or something like that.
However, I do think that we need an effect like this, especially to deal with Batterskull, Jitte, and Sylvan Library.
the only thing you can do "proactively" against hymn is play turn1 top (if it wasn't thoughtseized) or brainstorm/spell pierce in response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
on the play you can go t1 top, t2 cb and then their hymns are largely irrelevant because you get to untap w/ cb + top.
top is insane vs all black (hymn) decks.