Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
A blog posting about the card in the context of Commander
Essentially the entire fun behind the card is in these last two bullet-points: What is your opponent going to do and what are you going to do with whatever information you have gleaned from his process? If he splits it 1-9, is the 1 card so dominating right now that it will win you the game right there or is your opponent so good at mind games that he's just fucking with you and placing a basic land apart with signals that it's some über-spell? If you pass on the "1" pile, you're potentially missing out on the exact card you need to win the game right now. Potentially. Is it worth the risk of exiling the remaining 9 cards to find out?
I'd say that the answer is "No" 99% of the time. I think you can allow for yourself to get punked the once this actually crops up for better card selection in the remaining pile, even if that pile is 9 basic lands. Your chances of getting something worth playing are so much higher if you take the larger pile. Imagine that you're running this out on the third turn with no acceleration and play no land before activating on turn 4. You have drawn 11 cards from your 99, 3 of which are lands. Given the trend for about 40 mana sources in a deck, of the remaining 88 cards there's 37 mana sources and 51 spells if you have no other mana sources in hand. That gives you a rough ratio of 4 mana sources for every 10 cards revealed to your opponent off the Phyrexian Portal. Now, we all know that bad luck laughs in the face of statistics such as this and you can just as easily have a 10-spell reveal as a 10 mana-source reveal.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
Hey guys,
Now that spring is around the corner around here, I might be going to a couple of local and possibly major tournaments.
This list is usually my go to "I don't know what the meta is like" list:
DECK
As you can see it's more on the Stax spectrum of the archetype. I am thinking of replacing Hellkite/Titan/Wurmcoil with three Ugins. I will probably need to test it as if I do that, I will further decrease my threat density and Forgemaster will be close to useless.
Any advices?
Alternatively, I might go back with my page one Welder list and fix it up to involve Darettis.
I have played this list back when you first published it. I found it hard to win against fast decks with many permanents (goblins, elves, dredge, etc.) so I never used it in a tournament.
About Ugin, of course it is a great card but I don't think it fits in this list. Both sphere and lodestone make Ugin more expensive to cast. So you're looking at probably producing 10 mana while you're (partially) tapped out by all the Tangle Wires (+ copies). When I played this list I found that when you're opponent is down you just want to beat them with a stick and that's it. So my suggestion: Drop forgemaster and put in more (5-6 mana) sticks :smile:
Precursor Golem
Wurmcoil Engine
Steel Hellkite
of maybe even
Masticore
Razormane Masticore
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I do agree that list dies to decks that can produce a lot of permanents. I would even go sideboarding out sphere of resistances and tangle wires.
I will try 3 Wurmcoils and 3 Hellkites in the 3 Forgemaster/3 beater slot.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Hey Guys!
I tried a more aggro/disruption version of MUD. At first the list and then I'll follow with some explanations.
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Darksteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Flex slot
4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port
With this build I'd like to try the more disruptive way, e.g. with Lodestone/Revoker/Chalice/Thorn, etc. I also tried to put the overall cmc a little bit down because of the Thorn of Amethyst and the lack of Mishra's Workshop in Legacy.
As I already mentioned before, without Workshops the mana base is really tough to build. There are just two Sol Lands available for us and I don't know where to fit in some Mox Diamonds or Mox Opal to create some more speed during the early turns.
Beside the mana base I see another problem MUD Decks have and that's a working draw engine. With Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst we can disrupt our opponent, but we're also not able to play some draw/cantrips.
I would appreciate it if anybody got some solutions for the problems I have.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lucipher2k
Hey Guys!
I tried a more aggro/disruption version of MUD. At first the list and then I'll follow with some explanations.
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Metalworker
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Darksteel Colossus
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Flex slot
4x Wasteland
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Rishadan Port
With this build I'd like to try the more disruptive way, e.g. with Lodestone/Revoker/Chalice/Thorn, etc. I also tried to put the overall cmc a little bit down because of the Thorn of Amethyst and the lack of Mishra's Workshop in Legacy.
As I already mentioned before, without Workshops the mana base is really tough to build. There are just two Sol Lands available for us and I don't know where to fit in some Mox Diamonds or Mox Opal to create some more speed during the early turns.
Beside the mana base I see another problem MUD Decks have and that's a working draw engine. With Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst we can disrupt our opponent, but we're also not able to play some draw/cantrips.
I would appreciate it if anybody got some solutions for the problems I have.
My suggestions:
1. Play with 24 lands first of all. I have played the non-12-post build before and I agree it is really shaky on mana, and wasteland is a lot more painful. Once I switched to the 12-post build I felt like the deck was a lot more legitimate, and I was way more comfortable keeping hands with only 2 lands in them (partially because the 12-post build runs more land in general. Try out the 12post manabase, which is below:
4 Vesuva (Some people run 3 vesuva and 2 wastelands in order to make room for 3 cavern of souls. I haven't tried that yet, but I don't think it's necessary)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
2. Cut thorn of amethyst entirely. Trinisphere, chalice of the void, and lodestone golem get the job done just fine.
3. If you switch to the 24 lands build, cut crucible of worlds (to make room for some of the lands)
4. Run Blightsteel colossus instead of darksteel colossus. Blightsteel is strictly better, and you're likely to be tutoring for him anyway. I have hardcast blightsteel with the 12-post manabase before as well.
5. Cut phyrexian revokers from the mainboard, this deck doesn't care about many activated abilities, and can shutdown most decks that are really reliant on them. I prefer pithing needles in the sideboard because they can name wasteland, which can ruin us if the opponent is playing life from the loam.
6. If you want a draw engine, try Coercive Portal, Staff of Nin, or Staff of Domination (with the 12-post manabase, you can usually draw at least 1 card per turn if you're not putting down any gas, and if you have 3+ artifacts in hand and a metalworker and staff in play, you go infinite mana, life, and can draw your whole deck if you want)
I've found that MUD functions best when it is a lockdown/prison deck first and foremost, then you play the fatties to finish the game. Granted, the strategy changes a bit depending on what your opponent's board state is, but that's the general go-to plan.
If you want to throw all that out the window, you might try running goblin welders, possibly mindslaver, 4 cavern of souls, and some more comes into play/leaves play artifacts (like wurmcoil engine, spine of ish sah, sundering titan, precursor golem, myr battlesphere, etc.)
Also, if you're running crucible of worlds already, why not try running 1-2 buried ruin? That seems like it would be pretty darn useful to recur goodies. Especially with forgemaster in the mix.
Feel free to PM me if you want my take on any other stuff. I have been playing MUD for quite some time, and I have tried out a lot of different builds for the deck...
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Played 3 matchups yesterday with the Cloudpost version:
0-2 against Reanimator
There's not a whole lot you can do against turn 2 Griselbrand game 1. I lost pretty quickly. Game 2 saw a turn 3 Griselbrand from my opponent. Trinisphere and Ensnaring bridge held him at bay for a few turns, but the top of my deck wasn't very kind. I had a Lodestone Golem just hanging out until my opponent was able to drop an Ashen Rider into the yard and brought it in to get rid of the Bridge.
Tough matchup. Not much I felt like I could do against Turn 2/3 Griselbrand. Is this just a tough matchup in general since we don't have much disruption?
2-0 against Nic Fit
Game 1 I had 3 Wasteland show up which let me keep him off of both white and green. By time he got anything going, I had Metalworker/Staff combo for the win. Game 2 I had a triple Cloudpost/2x Lodestone/1 Sundering Titan hand and hardcast a Blightsteel on turn 5.
After that, we played about 4 games just for fun and I got crushed in every one. Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer/Flashback Cabal Therapy/Knight of the Relequary on turn 2/3 is backbreaking. Are we just really bad against discard?
0-2 against Sneak and Show
Game 1 I kept a pretty land light hand on the draw hoping to draw into the second land I would need to start going off. By the time I got some action going, he Sneak Attacked Emrakul and Griselbrand in the same turn. Game 2, I play turn 1 Cloudpost and he plays Turn 1 Ancient Tomb/Lotus Petal/Show and Tell. The best thing in my hand is Sundering Titan, which is no match for Emrakul.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rich101682
Played 3 matchups yesterday with the Cloudpost version:
0-2 against Reanimator
There's not a whole lot you can do against turn 2 Griselbrand game 1. I lost pretty quickly. Game 2 saw a turn 3 Griselbrand from my opponent. Trinisphere and Ensnaring bridge held him at bay for a few turns, but the top of my deck wasn't very kind. I had a Lodestone Golem just hanging out until my opponent was able to drop an Ashen Rider into the yard and brought it in to get rid of the Bridge.
Tough matchup. Not much I felt like I could do against Turn 2/3 Griselbrand. Is this just a tough matchup in general since we don't have much disruption?
2-0 against Nic Fit
Game 1 I had 3 Wasteland show up which let me keep him off of both white and green. By time he got anything going, I had Metalworker/Staff combo for the win. Game 2 I had a triple Cloudpost/2x Lodestone/1 Sundering Titan hand and hardcast a Blightsteel on turn 5.
After that, we played about 4 games just for fun and I got crushed in every one. Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer/Flashback Cabal Therapy/Knight of the Relequary on turn 2/3 is backbreaking. Are we just really bad against discard?
0-2 against Sneak and Show
Game 1 I kept a pretty land light hand on the draw hoping to draw into the second land I would need to start going off. By the time I got some action going, he Sneak Attacked Emrakul and Griselbrand in the same turn. Game 2, I play turn 1 Cloudpost and he plays Turn 1 Ancient Tomb/Lotus Petal/Show and Tell. The best thing in my hand is Sundering Titan, which is no match for Emrakul.
Your match results are very strange to me. Opposite of what I'm used to, to be honest. Nic Fit should be a bad matchup because of knight of the reliquary fetching wastelands and locking you out of mana. Reanimator and Sneaky Show should be easier matchups I think. I don't think I've lost an official sneaky show match with MUD.
Regarding Reanimator:
Did you keep hands that didn't get chalice of the void/trinisphere down turn 1-2? Do you have 2-3 tormod's crypts in your sideboard? Did you consider any mulligans to get better hands against reanimator? Do you have any staff of domination in the main? Staff can tap down creatures for 4 mana, which can easily keep fatties at bay. If they sideboard into show and tell for game 2 or 3, you can board in another spine of ish sah and/or other show and tell hate cards.
Here's how I usually sideboard against reanimator:
-1 sundering titan, -1 lightning greaves, -1 ugin, the spirit dragon// +2 tormod's crypt, +1 Karn Liberated I would also consider sideboarding in pithing needles if their deck is very griselbrand dependent, or if it's worldgorger reanimator or tin fins.
Regarding Sneaky Show:
How many spine of ish sah do you have in your 75? I have 1 in my mainboard, and 1 in my sideboard. Here's how I usually sideboard against sneaky show:
-2 trinisphere (their business spells cost 3 or 4 mana anyway, and chalice at x=1 shuts down their cantrips. If it's omnitell never sideboard out trinispheres though, as they override the 0 mana cost from omniscience), -1 lightning greaves, -1 sundering titan, -1 Ugin, the spirit dragon// +2 pithing needle (for sneak attack), +1 spine of ish sah (for show and tell), +2 karn liberated (need solo removal, not mass removal)
I think you either just got bad luck or you didn't mulligan aggressively enough. Don't lose faith, and don't be afraid to mulligan to 5 cards sometimes. It can pay off.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jakobian
Your match results are very strange to me. Opposite of what I'm used to, to be honest. Nic Fit should be a bad matchup because of knight of the reliquary fetching wastelands and locking you out of mana.
Overall NicFit does not run Wasteland. Not even with KotR. Discard is always very difficult to face for MUD since we rely on topdeck mode. A good NicFit player can hit you hard with double therapy and hold back a Decay or whatever removal work on delaying your development. While it sounds weird, but MUD should be winning from NicFit since MUD does bigger/better things. Once you combo, resolve Ugin or start dropping Wurmcoil/Hellkite/Titan your in a good position. NicFit has the tools to disrupt your plan but it all depends on players skill from both sides of the table and how well both players draw.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Made top 8 again with the deck at 1K using something extremely close to Justin Moss' deck list from the SCG open.
Lost to a very early/timely Wasteland in Game 3 of the top 8.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
What I am trying this week,
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City Of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Wasteland
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Staff Of Nin
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
3 Lodestone Golem
3 Precursor Golem
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated
Tower Of the Magistrate . It was pointed out to me and I don't know why this hasn't gotten more discussion that you can give protection from artifacts to the Germ token to make Batterskull fall off. That card is so heavily played that I think it warrants two copies.
Mikokoro . I wanted more relevant cards besides random utility stuff. There aren't a lot of relevant lands to play besides Wasteland which I don't like in this deck. I know a lot of people are going to think each player draws a card is totally bad, I want to draw cards really badly lol ok.. I'm playing 2 Staff Of Nin already, and I don't like paying 5 mana to draw a card with Staff Of Domination.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Anyone else see this?
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...florida_magic/
No Sundering Titans, upping to 4 Wurmcoil and 4 Ugin. I'm only running a single Ugin right now, and I'm never unhappy seeing it so there might be something to this. What are everyone's thoughts?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rich101682
Anyone else see this?
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...florida_magic/
No Sundering Titans, upping to 4 Wurmcoil and 4 Ugin. I'm only running a single Ugin right now, and I'm never unhappy seeing it so there might be something to this. What are everyone's thoughts?
I randomly came across the Stream on Sunday. I watched Ugin win both games against a Tezzerator deck.
On game one, he landed a Chalice with 4 counters. This effectively shut down his opponent's engine/win conditions (Jace and Tezz). Then he landed Ugin and just won from there.
Game two was essentially an early Ugin for the one. I can't remember which game but he ultimated Ugin.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
I have also watched the stream against Tezzerator. G1 he combo off T2 with Metalworker+Staff of Domination.
Game 2 was a long one and super fun. At one time the opponent had on board:
Sword of the Meek+Thopter foundry
Monastery Siege (on Khans)
Spine of Ish
Pithing Needle (on Rachet)
Karn (with less than 3 counters)
A resolved Ugin stopped the Thopter+Spine Combo of destroying one permanent, but a Tezzeret, Agent of bolas animated an arfifact that killed Ugin. An attack by a Phyrexian revoker killed Tezzeret and then the game resolved around Karn. I believe two other Ugins were countered and later a spine of Ish destroyed Karn. Next turn a lodestone golem attacked for lethal.
The MUD player was super good and in my opinion won a second game that many other players would propably have lost. The trading post did some work on G2 as it sac'ed and returned a phyrexian revoker set on Thopter. That forced the opponent into playing the spine every turn and sacrificing immediattely to have it for next turn. The mana investment was huge so that the opponent could not run away with the thopter+sword.
Overall, it was a great game but I think the list from Tezzerator was not optimal as it was obviously not playing any Jaces.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kohulk
I have also watched the stream against Tezzerator. G1 he combo off T2 with Metalworker+Staff of Domination.
Game 2 was a long one and super fun. At one time the opponent had on board:
Sword of the Meek+Thopter foundry
Monastery Siege (on Khans)
Spine of Ish
Pithing Needle (on Rachet)
Karn (with less than 3 counters)
A resolved Ugin stopped the Thopter+Spine Combo of destroying one permanent, but a Tezzeret, Agent of bolas animated an arfifact that killed Ugin. An attack by a Phyrexian revoker killed Tezzeret and then the game resolved around Karn. I believe two other Ugins were countered and later a spine of Ish destroyed Karn. Next turn a lodestone golem attacked for lethal.
The MUD player was super good and in my opinion won a second game that many other players would propably have lost. The trading post did some work on G2 as it sac'ed and returned a phyrexian revoker set on Thopter. That forced the opponent into playing the spine every turn and sacrificing immediattely to have it for next turn. The mana investment was huge so that the opponent could not run away with the thopter+sword.
Overall, it was a great game but I think the list from Tezzerator was not optimal as it was obviously not playing any Jaces.
This part I missed. However they played a "bonus round" after semifinals since they had to cut it short due to one of the finalists having an emergency.
The same MUD player made top 4 and lost in the semifinals against Burn.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
This part I missed. However they played a "bonus round" after semifinals since they had to cut it short due to one of the finalists having an emergency.
The same MUD player made top 4 and lost in the semifinals against Burn.
Does anyone else think the 4 Thorns in the sideboard are overkill? I'm assuming that's for Storm?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GhostEmpire
Does anyone else think the 4 Thorns in the sideboard are overkill? I'm assuming that's for Storm?
Probaly not. Storm is easy with trinisphere and chalice.
I think its against decks that run on a lot cheap non creature spells (brainstorm, bolt etc)
Overall a very SANE list for a change. I play 3 ugins currently because its that good. I only think 3 instead of 4 trinispheres doesnt make sense. A t1 or t2 trinisphere is just crazy good even better then a t1 chalice. timewalk stuff and counter protection. man.. u want 4.
Also im playing 4 wurms for ages. Swords to plowshares is ugly but not a good argument against wurm. Wurm doesnt die from normal removal and gains you life to make it to your combo. Saccing wurm to kuldotha? Thats how MUD started in the first place!
I never understood trading post, i think its underwhelming compared to staff of domination. Staff + post mana is the nuts.
Also only 1 lightning greaves?????? I play 3. Thats weird! A greaves makes for so many easy wins of kuldotha or worker.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
Probaly not. Storm is easy with trinisphere and chalice.
I think its against decks that run on a lot cheap non creature spells (brainstorm, bolt etc)
Overall a very SANE list for a change. I play 3 ugins currently because its that good. I only think 3 instead of 4 trinispheres doesnt make sense. A t1 or t2 trinisphere is just crazy good even better then a t1 chalice. timewalk stuff and counter protection. man.. u want 4.
Also im playing 4 wurms for ages. Swords to plowshares is ugly but not a good argument against wurm. Wurm doesnt die from normal removal and gains you life to make it to your combo. Saccing wurm to kuldotha? Thats how MUD started in the first place!
I never understood trading post, i think its underwhelming compared to staff of domination. Staff + post mana is the nuts.
Also only 1 lightning greaves?????? I play 3. Thats weird! A greaves makes for so many easy wins of kuldotha or worker.
Would you mind sharing your list with us? I'd love to see how you've built all that out, especially how you've fit in more than 1 copy of Lightning Greaves as I'm currently only running 1 and I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut to fit a second. Thanks!
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rich101682
Would you mind sharing your list with us? I'd love to see how you've built all that out, especially how you've fit in more than 1 copy of Lightning Greaves as I'm currently only running 1 and I'm having trouble figuring out what to cut to fit a second. Thanks!
im at work but i think its like this:
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 grim monolith
4 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff of Domination
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darksteel Citadel
SB:
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 tsabos web
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
4 faerie macabre
3 tormods crypt
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
How do people feel about cavern of souls? im not sure about it altough i played it in red mud with godo and magus back in the day..
