[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

For some reason, I am really not that worried. After all the tough games I have pulled though with this deck, I have faith we can make it past this intact. Also it makes Swan Song an auto include.

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I'd think otherwise, actually. Swan Song is good against a hardcast one, sure. But consider what it does to the meta if it has an impact: It takes a heavy toll on Show and Tell decks, and people will be packing more removal. The Show and Tell decks themselves will probably be dropping Leylines to have more room to deal with the bastard. The decks it is likely to see play in are Vial decks, by and large. And Swan Song does jack against a vialed-in Spirit. If anything, presuming Spirit sees widespread play, I'd react like this:

Main:
Julian's Swan list
- Viridian Shaman
- Tropical Island
+ Qasali Pridemage/Harmonic Sliver
+ Savannah

Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 NO
1 Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle

2 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Gaddock Teeg

Oldskool, but ought to work.

For fucks sake, can't we finally get an elven-type EtB Disenchant creature?!

We can hope right? You could even make it Green and White if you want to. (Not like that would do much...)

I immediately thought of Elvish Hexhunter and Elvish Lyrist but due to Mother of Runes those are not reliable. Also they are a bit slow.

So I hopped on eBay and picked up a couple Virtue's Ruin just in case. I'm not too worried about it though.

The only two obvious decks that will try to run her is D&T and Maverick. If you already are crushing those two decks, then perhaps a single card from them cutting off both of your draw engines simultaneously won't matter to you, but I suspect that she'll be far more tricky than many of you Elves players are giving her credit for. A single SoL virtually deading 12 cards in your deck isn't anything to shrug your shoulders at.

Danyul: Do you think Virtue's Ruin is better than Dread of Night? Dread of Night deals with most of the problem creatures in D&T, and costs significantly less, which is a boon against the mana denial strategy. It also sticks around, and makes Stoneforges unable to pick up Jitte counters because of having 0 power, which seems relevant.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

The only two obvious decks that will try to run her is D&T and Maverick. If you already are crushing those two decks, then perhaps a single card from them cutting off both of your draw engines simultaneously won't matter to you, but I suspect that she'll be far more tricky than many of you Elves players are giving her credit for. A single SoL virtually deading 12 cards in your deck isn't anything to shrug your shoulders at.

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12? For Storm, yes. For Elves, about 8. GSZ has a bunch of other good targets, though it's admittedly suboptimal.

I'm not sure Spirit of the Labyrinth will be used in any MU we struggle in. The decks that would use it, as mentioned D&T and some Maverick variants, we are not only favored but they have had access to Ethersworn Canonist. Typically any deck that has access to Canonist we would react by siding out some of the Glimpse engine cards. While Viridian Shaman did help with Canonist, I still believe Canonist is superior overall. The Spirit halts Visionary/Symbiote and Glimpse, but does not halt us from playing out our hand. Canonist does and it stops all the above.

The way the format (most metas) have gone to deal with TNN is through the various forms of -1-1 distribution and/or board wipes. This guy is at risk to be killed by some of that -1-1 distribution. I do think we'll see this Spirit but I don't think its any more of a worry than other stuff. I'm just referring to Elves of course. Elves has adapted to so much this won't be any more difficult than before. I don't think we need to start planning for new board cards just because of this one spirit; unless of course 40% of your metas goes white. And if it does, I think the best suggestion on here is go back to Qasali Pridemage / Viridian Zealot.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

12? For Storm, yes. For Elves, about 8. GSZ has a bunch of other good targets, though it's admittedly suboptimal.

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With Spirit of the Labyrinth in play, 4 Glimpse + 4 Visionary + 4 Symbiote are pretty dead. Visionary and Symbiote can be used with Heritage Druid, attack/block, etc, but let's be honest, being able to get Symbiote+Visionary going is a HUGE part of Elves ability to go.

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

I'm not sure Spirit of the Labyrinth will be used in any MU we struggle in. The decks that would use it, as mentioned D&T and some Maverick variants, we are not only favored but they have had access to Ethersworn Canonist. Typically any deck that has access to Canonist we would react by siding out some of the Glimpse engine cards. While Viridian Shaman did help with Canonist, I still believe Canonist is superior overall. The Spirit halts Visionary/Symbiote and Glimpse, but does not halt us from playing out our hand. Canonist does and it stops all the above.

The way the format (most metas) have gone to deal with TNN is through the various forms of -1-1 distribution and/or board wipes. This guy is at risk to be killed by some of that -1-1 distribution. I do think we'll see this Spirit but I don't think its any more of a worry than other stuff. I'm just referring to Elves of course. Elves has adapted to so much this won't be any more difficult than before. I don't think we need to start planning for new board cards just because of this one spirit; unless of course 40% of your metas goes white. And if it does, I think the best suggestion on here is go back to Qasali Pridemage / Viridian Zealot.

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There's important differences, though. Most importantly that this maindeckable, which Canonist isn't. We can also slowly dig for outs to Canonist or the NOs that win the match - 2 cards/turn is still way better than 1. Against this, no dice.
The effect is also far more severe on non-Storm/Elves combo decks - Canonist merely forces Omnitell to go off in slow motion, this just shuts it down hard, comboing out, setting up, the whole thing. This shuts down Griselbrand. It shuts down most cantrips, so Storm has a hard time setting up. Tempo with a low-threat hand? Oops, good game loss there. The big thing about it is that it hurts every deck's ability to play smoothly because they're playing blanks and has actual, good effect on fair decks. The second is that it's an enchantment and isn't hit by the standard maindeck hate card which is just functionally the best thing we have.

Hating it after board is pretty easy. But it's the maindeckability of it that is the big issue. We have less NO's, more Glimpses and no Progenitus in G1 too.

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Originally Posted by shopshopshop

Danyul: Do you think Virtue's Ruin is better than Dread of Night? Dread of Night deals with most of the problem creatures in D&T, and costs significantly less, which is a boon against the mana denial strategy. It also sticks around, and makes Stoneforges unable to pick up Jitte counters because of having 0 power, which seems relevant.

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I like Virtue because of its cross-application vs Maverick/Junk. Being able to tag Knights, Gaddock Teeg, and Cannonist is nice. Also the occasional Meddling Mage. That said, Virtue's Ruin will likely sit in my "Potential SB Cards" box forever and never get sleeved up unless my meta turns whiter than a Congressional budget meeting.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

With Spirit of the Labyrinth in play, 4 Glimpse + 4 Visionary + 4 Symbiote are pretty dead. Visionary and Symbiote can be used with Heritage Druid, attack/block, etc, but let's be honest, being able to get Symbiote+Visionary going is a HUGE part of Elves ability to go.

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Symbiote is always live for block/bouncing. Also, it is not an elf and cannot be used with Heritage Druid (minor point, I know). The BFF Team is a huge part of the deck, that's true. But simply running the 4th NO may give us enough game to deal with this new hatebear/hatecat.

Edit - I was talking to some D&T pilots and they are struggling to see what they can cut to even play this new card. We'll just have to wait and see how they adapt. The burden of proof is on them. I'm just gonna keep on Hoofin' it up.

Maverick still runs Gaddock Teeg main and typically gets another post-board. That seems to shut off the GSZ and NO plan.

That's true. And that's a card we have had to deal with for some time now. I'm actually more afraid of Teeg than this new thing.

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Originally Posted by danyul

That's true. And that's a card we have had to deal with for some time now. I'm actually more afraid of Teeg than this new thing.

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Yeah, but together they're a pretty nice seal on our ability to do anything broken. Which is kinda bad in a deck predicated on doing broken things.

True. I was gonna type something up about us usually being able to beat a single hatebear, but once they come down in multiples, we are kinda screwed. Hence Virtue's Ruin. But then I had a nightmare about Teeg+Cannonist and forgot what I was doing with my life. But I'm back now!

Oh, also Maverick isn't a huge meta presence at the moment. So I wouldn't devote too much energy to finding crazy SB cards to beat it when it's already a favorable matchup.

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Originally Posted by danyul

Oh, also Maverick isn't a huge meta presence at the moment. So I wouldn't devote too much energy to finding crazy SB cards to beat it when it's already a favorable matchup.

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Maverick very much was a major meta player pre-TNN, but not so much anymore, I agree. However, it only takes a single card to turn an average deck into a great deck (or vice versa as Maverick pre-TNN and post-TNN has demonstrated). SoL may be what pushes Maverick back into relevance though.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

There's important differences, though. Most importantly that this maindeckable, which Canonist isn't. We can also slowly dig for outs to Canonist or the NO's that win the match - 2 cards/turn is still way better than 1. Against this, no dice.
The effect is also far more severe on non-Storm/Elves combo decks - Canonist merely forces Omnitell to go off in slow motion, this just shuts it down hard, comboing out, setting up, the whole thing. This shuts down Griselbrand. It shuts down most cantrips, so Storm has a hard time setting up. Tempo with a low-threat hand? Oops, good game loss there. The big thing about it is that it hurts every deck's ability to play smoothly because they're playing blanks and has actual, good effect on fair decks. The second is that it's an enchantment and isn't hit by the standard maindeck hate card which is just functionally the best thing we have.

Hating it after board is pretty easy. But it's the maindeckability of it that is the big issue. We have less NO's, more Glimpses and no Progenitus in G1 too.

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I couldnt agree more with all that, but I was referring to Elves specifcally. Clearly this card will have significant impact in other MUs outside of Elves. I see the maindeck issues too, and it was a nice point to bring up that it would be a main deck issue; however what does elves have that fixes it main deck regardless? Nothing, unless you bring Qasali to the main board. Its just like playing super fast combo game 1, Miracles game 1, or perhaps anything running Chalice, we got nothing game 1. At least we can work around Spirit slightly, and aren't dead in the water like some other things.

Come on 20 card sideboards! (SIKE)

This new card seems to hurt decks that we generally struggle against (storm, grizzlebrand...). Anyway, playing a 4th NO and a Qasali MD seems reasonable. Maybe SoL could make Ezuri, Renegade Leader a bit more playable, adding another way to win the game without drawing cards? After some serious pondering I came to the conclusion that this new card will not affect us very much. Canonist and Teeg both are harder for us, but can still be dealt with quite easily.

We can still Deathrite machinegun if need be, and SoL can't really attack us with that skinny little body.

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Originally Posted by Mammutti

This new card seems to hurt decks that we generally struggle against (storm, grizzlebrand...). Anyway, playing a 4th NO and a Qasali MD seems reasonable. Maybe SoL could make Ezuri, Renegade Leader a bit more playable, adding another way to win the game without drawing cards? After some serious pondering I came to the conclusion that this new card will not affect us very much. Canonist and Teeg both are harder for us, but can still be dealt with quite easily.

We can still Deathrite machinegun if need be, and SoL can't really attack us with that skinny little body.

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Yeah another good point, DRS gun is often forgotten. I mean, yes the card shuts down one of our most powerful engines (best friends combo) but at least we have NO and GSZ, DRS. We are not without answers.

Doesnt elves already want to be on the NO plan hardcore vs. DnT as is, anyways?