[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sdematt

Fair, but he's the nutters against Miracles and Combo, so you have to balance that out.

Why Sakura Tribe Elder, besides being a badass? Is it your backup in case Vet doesn't go off?

-Matt

---

Sakura has a lot of random small utilities that add up to being an all-star. He's a 5th ramp guy, he blocks Batterskull like a champ, and he has very strong synergies with Meren and Nightmare (even if he isn't getting lands at that point in the game). The biggest reason, though, is that I tried running without him in a white list that was otherwise perfectly positioned for a couple months, and I had enough mana problems that I put him back in afterwards and never looked back. Since I run my lists a little top-heavier than most, I really like having the 5th ramp creature -- it smooths things out quite nicely in my experience.

I just don't think I have the slots to put him in the game. I'm running more removal than you are, so I can't seem to squeeze in Baneslayers, Nightmare, or the Tribe Elder. I'll keep moving stuff around and seeing what happens, though.

-Matt

@ Arianrhod: Nice write-up. I didn't make it down to Mythic, but I would have loved to tinker with your list.
I think the 2 drop you're looking for may be Shriekmaw. He provides removal, which combos with Meren of Clan Nel Toth, while also being a big stupid thing later in the game.

@List: Personally, I would run a lot more fetch lands. Kruphix only gets better with them (both in "seeing more of the deck" and playing more physical lands). They also work better with DRS. I've experimented into Nic Fit and found DRS to be okay. I would run 8 fetches with 2 DRS/2 Courser in the mix.

I also find Sensei's Top to be perfect for my playstyle over Library for Nic Fit. I understand the raw value of Library, but find SDT to be stronger, especially when Deed in on board. Less collateral from Deed @2.

Sun Titan is a tough call. He's strong af. But you also need to be playing the right opponents/archetypes all day. I like this list (several months old) for what BGw Nic Fit can accomplish - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17576&iddeck=132268. Meleren obviously being a better call than some of the inclusions Vidranski had access to. Ignore the SB, as that's its own discussion. I picture the shell of BGw Nic Fit as: Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Top, Zenith, Decay, [swords or path], handful of bombs.

But Top is card selection, not card draw. Typically, in games with Library, you draw an extra 3-5 cards. That's not chump change.

-Matt

Sun Titan is a tough call. He's strong af. But you also need to be playing the right opponents/archetypes all day. I like this list (several months old) for what BGw Nic Fit can accomplish - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17576&iddeck=132268. Meleren obviously being a better call than some of the inclusions Vidranski had access to. Ignore the SB, as that's its own discussion. I picture the shell of BGw Nic Fit as: Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Top, Zenith, Decay, [swords or path], handful of bombs.[/QUOTE]


Hey, that's me! Haha! :D

Had a great fun time playing that version. And sideboard was built right before the event, aka hangover sideboard building. :D

@arianrhod I think the 2 drops selection at this point fror you comes down entirely to playstyle. Your build is a more traditional large evaisive hard to answer threats that ignore your opponent and grind. Currently your zeniths are dead in almost all combo matches teeg doesn't fit your play style and scooze can do work vs storm seems best case senario.

Scooze can also win Goyf wars, DRS wars, and against Snapcaster he's great. I really want to run 2, but again, no fucking slots. Bastard deck construction.

-Matt

Tell me about it i can't find room for witness, courser and geist i have to pick one. I don't want to cut a rhino and my flexs spots are currently filled with f charm g charm and mentor. My play style and deck construction skews me more towards a "big maverick/rock" style with a much lower top end then the rest of the nic fitters.

So far I've decided I'm cutting a Courser for a Pulse. I thought long and hard about cutting the 2nd, but decided to leave it for now.

At the moment I'm reconsidering Sun Titan, which is VERY hard for me to do because I have a perpetual love affair with that card. There is literally nothing more I love to do in magic than Titan+Deeding people. In any format. With the new printings of Nissa and Meren, though, I'm being forced to actually considering cutting Sunny T for the first time basically ever :-(

I'll keep everyone posted as I tune up the last couple slots.

Just wondering if it is really necessary to include sakura tribe elder bc of meren. I played with her on cockatrice and just taking a creature back from the graveyard to your hand seemed really strong. In my mind it's like that: For her to actually reanimate 3 cmc+ stuff end of turn she needs to be in play a lot longer than you can reasonably expect so you can call it a "win more" thing.
(Also i think tribe elder is really bad. The pridemage for reclamation sage in abzan i can understand which i still find kinda clunky - as a fuel for the meren counters -)
Wouldn't a undying/persist combo (strangleroot geist, the black 1 cmc dude with landfall or kitchen finks) with phyrexian tower or similar be more selfsufficient without meren and very strong with her?


Opinions?

I repeat - Eternal Witness and Diabolic Intent. Or Eternal Witness and Phyrexian Tower.

Ticks up the experience counters and lets you generate some nice CA.

Yeah, that seems good but it's very conditional (meren on the board, witness and intent in hand and no disruption on the other side of the table. also there needs to be stuff in your graveyard too besides some fetches and a explorer).
In my mind it's like goblin guide for burn players: If you attack (take back a creature) two rounds with it you usually win. Saying: I expect meren to be on the board or able to use her ability for 2 rounds on average. For me the reanimation part isn't really a goal (more like an ultimate on a utility planeswalker).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dadadot

Yeah, that seems good but it's very conditional (meren on the board, witness and intent in hand and no disruption on the other side of the table).
In my mind it's like goblin guide for burn players: If you attack (take back a creature) two rounds with it you usually win. Saying: I expect meren to be on the board or able to use her ability for 2 rounds on average. For me the reanimation part isn't really a goal (more like an ultimate on a utility planeswalker).

---

Witness and Intent don't have to be in the yard. Intent can be in your GY for all you care, Witness can be GSZ'd or also in your yard. Just wait with dropping/GSZ'ing Meren until you hit the late game and then just grind out the value. Heck, if need be you can Intent Meren to tutor up Eternal Witness and start the engine from there.

You can also up the count of Intents in the deck to 2 or even 3. Conditionality can be fixed to a degree, be creative.

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for such detailed report and congratz for the overall result.

Here are some food for thoughts while doing your homeworks (aka: improving your list):


1) I agree with a former post in that I believe your mana base could be reworked:

Actually, you are @ 15 green sources, 12 black and white sources.
With something like below, you could even improve the numbers to 16 green, 14 black and 13 white sources.
If you really want to keep your phyrexian tower, I believe you could go -1 Windswept heath +1 Phyrexian.

As aforementioned, playing Top + Courser + Sylvan is asking for having as much as library manipulations as possible.

Furthermore, 13/14 black sources is, IMHO, mandatory when looking at sideboard options.

2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Taiga


2) As much as Nissa and Sun Titan look appealing, I think you are getting cute.

I won't deny the sheer power of both but while looking at legacy scene right now; I don't think you need them in our 75/76.
- Nissa won't provide any effect until you reach 7 lands (save the CIP trigger).
- If you get to resolve a Sun Titan, I think, you are already in a very good shape to take over the game. So basically, it appears more as a "win-more" option than anything else.

* We have debated several times about Savenging Ooze and I'm still encouraging its inclusion. That card should really be in any Nic Fit list (75/76) as its utility is unique among the whole legacy card pool. This little bastard has won me more games in the long run than any other Nic Fit bombs.

** For combo matchups, I think we need a 1-of "cheap" beater or we are just bound to be a hatebear deck G2 & G3.
I share your feeling about Tarmo and looking at a lot of abzan list, we deserve a better option:
As a matter of fact, Knight of the Reliquary might be the tool we are looking for:
- It can grow fast
- It doubles up the S&T hate when you have access to Karakas / It can get your utility lands.


3) Drawing cards

Sylvan Library is a fantastic card but you might want to test your list replacing it with Painful Truth because:
- I believe you already have enough library manipulation with 3 Tops
- It could stand in the way of Pernicious Deed
- It is another "slow" engine

I think we could argue for hours and Sylvan Library might be the best choice in a vacuum and I know you worship flexibility above everything so that you might end up playing "abzan charm" instead.

Anyway, drawing 3 cards for 3 mana & life is a hell of a deal.
During testing, I found that this very card has mitigated those kind of opening 7: "4 lands + 3 business spells" where you keep drawing lands during the first two or three turns.

Nevertheless, in order to reach a significant impact, I wouldn't play less than 2 (considering that 3 might be the optimal number but not in this list).


4) Here is the revamped list:

2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Taiga


4 Veteran explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura tribe elder
1 Pridemage Qasali
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
2 Baneslayer
1 Sigarda


3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith

3 Sensei's divining top


SB: 2 Ethersworn canonist
SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Golgari charm
SB: 3 Slaughter games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vindicate / Abrupt decay / Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil


* Tsunami is too narrow to my taste
** I don't think we should pass on Liliana. This card has a very wide application and can trump a lot of control/combo MU.

I get what you are saying. She wins games late especially with the right cards.
What I am sayin is she doesn't need to bring creatures back to battlefield to be strong.
As people above mentioned it's very hard to change the list if you already have a tight build. Most people are probably willing to change 1 or two cards or maybe more if they want to throw out one specific strategy.
I'm looking for opinions on slight changes to the different nic fit build including meren. I don't want to go overboard.

I was playing a slightly modified version of arianrhod's list against deathblade and I was using a Painful Truths instead of Meren due to her not being online yet. The card felt really good and was critical in helping to out-grind big Jace. I'll definitely be keeping a close eye on the card going forward. That extra card means way more than I thought it did when compared to Night's Whisper.

Does anyone have experience with the Lands matchup? What is safe to take out of the deck? How do you usually sideboard? I'm on Rhino Fit right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gth842s

Does anyone have experience with the Lands matchup? What is safe to take out of the deck? How do you usually sideboard? I'm on Rhino Fit right now.

---

My sideboard has 3 surgicals, so I bring those in. I trim a cabal therapy, because I still like to some to set off vet ex. I also cut a gaddock teeg, because he does basically nothing, and 1 abrupt decay (3 deed, 2 decay, 3 path to exile left in the main).

Path to exile may not seem good, but I have found it to be necssary to buy time if they make a quick lage.

The combo version is harder to beat than the control version.

You can put armageddon in your board (which also doubles as miracles hate) If you are really worried about the matchup.

For lands, you want your hexproof creatures to beat Maze, and Rhino loops mean you don't need to use the combat step (also getting around Maze). Path helps to beat the 20/20/slows them down enough.

It's not the best matchup, and combo is definitely worse than control. Decay is slightly bad, Deed can be better since you can wipe all the Moxen/Explorations/etc. out. Needle out of the board is very good, and that's why I also play it.

Also, my thoughts on this list:

Quote:

---

2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Taiga


4 Veteran explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura tribe elder
1 Pridemage Qasali
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
2 Baneslayer
1 Sigarda


3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith

3 Sensei's divining top


SB: 2 Ethersworn canonist
SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Golgari charm
SB: 3 Slaughter games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vindicate / Abrupt decay / Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil

---

I don't think this is too shabby, but there may be an underestimation of playing more removal. Seems like I'm on more removal than most, but otherwise, I agree with this potential setup (sideboard notwithstanding). Truths is very good. Play the card, please.

@Matt: The list I have provided is not tested...at all. And I tried to keep Kevin's spirit in it at all cost.

Just a very rough idea of some tuning Kevin might want to explore. By no means am I saying that this is the list to play.

My list has been posted a few pages back as I like having more games against combo MD.
But I am not closed to any ideas/lists focused on beating fair deck G1 and bringing a lot of hate postboard to fight back against combo decks.

Kevin might be right with the path he tooks (just watch Lejay's take on shardless)

The more competitive any list can be the happier I am.

Ps: kicking ass with Baneslayer looks sexy !!