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Have you tried Venser? It is an extra piece of interaction in fair match ups and has value in being picked up.
Also, against storm: infernal tutor, hold priority, crack led, cast tutor target, flash venser bounce spell with 0 mana floating must feel good.
Double blue is an issue with Venser.
Or just bounce one of their lands in response to Infernal Tutor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
Got in a couple more games with outcome. I think I'm ready to call that particular experiment a failure. Overall, it really just reminded me about why I think BUG is the weakest color combination for Nic Fit. It just lacks so much board presence.
I would like to try out a Jund build with Imperial Recruiter next, but they're out of my price range for now, not to mention a card I'm really hesitant to pick up due to it's price being so vulnerable to a reprint.
One thing I've learned over the past couple weeks though, is that the Ballista/Glissa combo is very potent. I wouldn't mind trying to make something work there using a Ranger of Eos package.
If no one else has tried it yet, Ballista is absolutely fantastic. Given the right mana/board development, Ballista represents a 3 turn clock that flips for 0 to Bob, can be tutored with Ranger, either Recruiter, or Trinket Mage, and can be leveraged for removal. It even has a really good interaction with Glissa (not that it comes up much). It's also a great way to use mana in our deck.
I've not yet tried ballista as I'm still musing around nyx fit.
Well it's not nyx fit anymore :tongue:.
I was undecided about the evo-leap plan. as it is either good to the point of overkill or a 2 mana do nothing that you hate to top deck.
But I had enough, during my last testing my win didn't came from leap but from the classic nic fit engine and I felt that I didn't use green sun to it's full power.
Also my best play (turn 2 win through a chalice VS eldrazi) came from a phyrexian tower draw, and as I can't justify playing 4 of them, I'll listen to brael's gospel of the holy crop rotation.
So I'm now testing a more simple junk fit list with 4 rector overwhelming splendor and death's hold as a minimal "combo package"
4 veteran explorer
4 cabal therapy
4 green sun zenith
3 crop rotation
2 mirri's guile
1 scroll rack
4 rector
1 overwhelming splendor
1 curse of death's hold
4 sword to plowshare
2 collective brutality
2 pernicious deed
1 dryad arbor
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 tireless tracker
1 reclamation sage
1 chameleon colossus
1 thragthusk
6 basics
8 fetchs
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
1 phyrexian tower
1 cavern of souls
1 volrath stronghold
1 karakas
I'm still sold on cavern of souls, not sure if the crubland would be better as the 9 th fetch.
When I'm bored of rector(people started to bring grave hate, my previous build with souls was so cold to a leyline ) I think I'll try traverse + ballista.
This seems much better since bouncing the tutor target spell won't stop a storm trigger from resolving, or so I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Yes both of these statements are true.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
The line I was describing was if they are going to tutor for Ad Nauseum or something like that. Combo is our weakest match up, no surprise there, and while Venser is justifiable against show and tell variants, reanimator, marit lage, I was just looking for a reasonable play against storm decks. Although double U is hard along with 4 cmc, he might just be too fair to justify.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Discard helps a lot. Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge are good outs to Empty the Warrens. Tendrils is tougher to beat unless you've got Teeg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobra_D
My GB lists do hold their own against combo though.
I've been doing some more brewing lately. One approach I take to Nic Fit due to all the tutors we have available is that of packages. We have a mana acceleration package, a removal package, SFM package, Range of Eos package, Trinket Mage package, Blue package, SE package, and so on. Generally we can fit three to four packages in a deck.
A year ago or so (perhaps longer) we were discussing SFM and an idea I kicked around a bit was that of a half package. Instead of 4 SFM, a Batterskull, a Jitte, and a Sword, we could just run a half package of say 2 SFM+1 Jitte+1 Batterskull. And get 80% of the functionality for 50% of the card slots.
I want to expand this idea of half packages further.
For example, lets look at the idea of Burning Wish in red. The typical strategy is to use 6-8 sideboard slots on sorceries, add 4 Burning Wish, and have maximum versatility. However, there's really only a couple good tutor targets, 80% of your tutoring will involve probably 20% of your cards. So lets use some half packages. 1 Burning Wish MB + 1 Collective Brutality + 1 Lost Legacy + 1 Toxic Deluge. Statistically, you'll hit a 1 of about 50% as often as a 4 of (depending on card draw), so you get 50% of the functionality for 33% of the card slots.
So how could this be beneficial? Simply put, it creates a more versatile deck. Where we had to specialize in one package, we can create the room for 2, and have much better matches as a result. So, sticking with the red idea, we could leverage those leftover slots for an Imperial Recruiter package. Say... 2 Recruiter, 1 Dragonmaster Outcast, 1 Huntmaster of the Fells, 1 Walking Ballista.
This creates some tutor overlap and creates slots where we were previously having problems.
Taking this idea, here's a potential Jund list using my usual style
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures 20
1 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
4 Dark Confidant
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
Spells 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Collective Brutality
1 Burning Wish
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard 15
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Maze of Ith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
There's a few things I'm liking with this. Huntmaster and Nissa both serve as reasonable bodies that GSZ and Recruiter can grab, and more importantly there's a really high range of 5 mana starts. So when you have Vet+Tower you can go right into a T2 Recruiter+Bob of GSZ=4. There's also a lot of reach here relative to a normal list, and an above average amount of removal while maintaining threat density. Though, all of the removal does tend to be a bit weak against large creatures.
@Brael: On packages in general - do you think there are any packages with some natural overlap/synergy? SFM, equipment, Ranger of Eos, Ballista, Glissa or something?
That might be worth looking into.
Well, SFM and Recruiter of the Guard seem to have some overlap. But the downside to that is it will seriously hurt your GSZ's. Ranger/Recruiter have some overlap in theory, just because they're the same colors, but really the cards you want from Recruiter lean more towards interaction (especially with combo) while Ranger is more about building a clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The best I've found with Ranger of Eos is 2 DRS, 1 something (Endless One or Sylvan Safekeeper), 1 Ballista
I'm not sure what the best is with Recruiter of the Guard yet but Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Dark Confidant, SFM, and Thalia are all solid options to grab. Scavenging Ooze too.
For example, the usual 4x SFM that gets run could perhaps be 2 SFM, 2 Recruiter, which is just as effective as 4 SFM at getting your equipment, but then include the other hits as well. I think that such a list would lean really far towards non green though.
In Nic Fit, I think Eladamri Call > Recruiter at 90%Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
2 CCM, instant speed, larger choice.
Recruiter got a really little body, we rarely run cavern, we don't run Aluren nor Flicker.
We can get it back with forteress and Nissa, but I think there would be better targets.
You could be right on that. But one point in favor of Recruiter is that it plays better with SFM.
Unless I’m running Reactor, I wouldn’t bother with Recruiter (and even then I’d have to make cuts to include it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
As for NicFit lists, the Dino-fit concept I ran across on Reddit gave me ideas. I wouldn’t go crazy with the theme, but some of the new cards fit well into Nic Fit. Has me thinking about Jund and the old fashioned concept of having bigger value things on the table.
If anyone is on DinoFit, give Phyrexian Metamorph a look. He was alright with Regisaur Alpha and opponents Leovold.
I'd think most Ixalan cards to be more Jund/BG Fit cards than Junk. Non-Junk lists now do have a way of obtaining a hard to kill endgame creature and shoring up the 4 mana slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
I'm not a fan of dinos in jund, but I do like Ripjaw Raptor and Carnage Tyrant. I'll probably be playing with the Imperial Recruiter stuff I've been theorycrafting with for a little while but if/when I go back to pure GB both of those cards are on my list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't think any of the 4-drops in nonred builds are particularly good right now, but if you were running one I would rather have Chameleon Colossus in my 4-mana Dinosaur slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I find it weird that when I was playing Chameleon Colossus everyone told me it's not good and I had to sell people on the card, and now that I'm not playing it, I'm being told I should play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Anyways, I don't think I want Colossus with my current builds right now, if I go back to pure GB I'll likely play it, but with either a red or white splash I think I like Mistcutter Hydra more. It checks Jace (or any other PW), it still passes the Strix test, it gets around TNN, can usually beat an Angler, dodges Terminus for a turn, can sometimes surprise ANT, and so on. It does die to black and white removal, but I think that dodging blue is pretty relevant. Plus, I like that it can be tutored from either Recruiter or from Ranger, so it could fit into a lot of pretty versatile strategies. It does play poorly with GSZ though.