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As soon as you identify your opp on miracles get ee in play on 2 and get ruins in hand or in play. They can't win with this setup. Respond to trigger with Ruins once RiP resolves. Try not to lose any ee to their RiP triggers or static effects if possible. You will need them all. Port makes this more likely to happen since they don't run many lands for a control deck and you can continue making land drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Edit: bummer
What you mentioned above doesn't actually work. Even if you respond to the RIP trigger, since RIP is in play it's replacement effect still happens. Note that the sacrifice of EE is in the cost of activation, so your EE will be subject to RIP's replacement effect. There's no way for you to use EE to plow up a RIP without having the EE get exiled.
That is indeed true. It unfortunately does not work out the way that you want it too. What builds are everyone on right now?
It seems most people are enamored with the RG Combo version and to a lesser degree the Jund list. I think both lists are quite fragile and will probably be rocking the good ol' Intuitions at SCGATL.
What does this deck do against Show and Tell?
Karakas is playable I hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by mulder
Yeah but you only play one copy and if your opponent draws 14 in response i don't think you're gonna win usually.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Sneak and Show is a pretty horrible matchup. RG Lands might be able to combo out faster but otherwise Sneak Attack, Emrakul and 2 red mana beat pretty much all versions of Lands. Game 1 they do auto-lose to Ensnaring Bridge if you can get into play though \o/
Unless you have pretty targeted sideboard hate there's not a lot you can bring in. Krosan Grip can be okay in conjunction with Karakas. Sphere/Thorn are pretty mediocre. Chalice seems okay but if you're on RG it eats alot of your own deck as well. Swan Song and Revoker seem okay.
I am not sure that the Sneak and Show matchup is horrible in the same way the High Tide/Omni-Tell matchup is. I don't think the matchup is favorable by any stretch and if they have the nut hand its pretty tough for any deck to beat them. But Lands does have the tools to slow them down and win and your always going to need a combination of sideboard hate to beat them game two or three.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrio
also sometimes they bring in blood moon, its the pits :rolleyes:
I think the RG Land build is better against them then the traditional 4/5 color builds are
What about SB'ing like Thalia, Chalice, and Revoker? kind of turn into a D&Tish style post board vs the combo decks?
[QUOTE=
I think the RG Land build is better against them then the traditional 4/5 color builds are[/QUOTE]
RG Land, u mean the one used by :
Kurt Speiss
1st Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 1/26/2014 ???
Yes. RG (Combo) Lands is the one packing Crop Rotations, Gambles and full set of Dark Depths in the 75. It can combo extremely quickly and retains a lot of the traditional 4/5C Lands control elements like Rishadan Port, Maze of Ith and PFire. However, it sacrifices a lot of 4C Lands' protection in that it doesn't run an artifact suite (Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, Zuran Orb). It's also somewhat fragile against TNN and Wild Mongoose but much more resilient against grave hate. It has a better match-up against combo than 4C Lands because it has the potential to win very quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahiscute
That's already what Lands does. 4C and RG usually have something like 8~ slots devoted to combo consisting of some amalgamation of Sphere/Thorn (Sphere is probably better because it hinders Elves), Chalice and Trinisphere. Thalia et al. probably aren't used as often because of the white commitment. 4C Lands has maybe up to 9 sources of white (Savannah, 4 Mox, 3 Fetches, 1 Karakas) which is pretty iffy for casting hateful men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Artifact hate is pretty mediocre against Sneak and Show which is why I tried out things like Revoker and Swan Song against them. I think both of those cards are pretty new in Lands' sideboard and while they obviously didn't save me in Nashville I think they deserve more testing.
I played against Sneak and Show on stream (Dzy piloting it) here: http://www.twitch.tv/dzyl/b/502996701 starting at about 3:30. I assumed before the match started that he was on storm, so I mulliganed a bit aggressively game 1. Sphere / Thorn are okay, but can't be relied upon for too long because they will get bounced. Ghost Quarter to get rid of basics is only strong if you pair it with bojuka bog because eventually emrakul will hit the graveyard to get them back. I think the best way to approach this is to try to combo off as quickly as possible, using Sphere / Thorn / Karakas to buy a bit of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrio
If game three, when he cast show and tell, I have depths / karakas / sphere / krosan grip in hand. I decided to be conservative and drop sphere to prevent me from dying immediately to lotus petal sneak attack emrakul. Do you think that's correct?
What's the other line? Putting in Depths and making a 20/20? If so, your line seems pretty conservative indeed, but I think it makes sense with your hand as you are pretty safe anyway. If he knows you're running Spheres he would have played Petal pre SnT, if show in Sneak, play Petal were his line.
I'm more suprised that you did not cast Sphere on your turn (which opens you up to Petal-Tomb-Sneak).
Agreed on petal pre snt if his plan is emrakul petal sneak attack since he already saw sphere game 2. Great thinking, I'll remember that next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
I didn't play sphere because i expected to be blown out by a counterspell
Sad. I like using Thalia because she is Sphere + Clock (albeit a slow one). 4 Color seemed fine with her with only 10 sources though. I think she may be good enough. Revoker seems solid considering the same thing in that it disrupts Sneak Attack/LED while creating a clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrio
I split the finals of the $1k at channelfireball yesterday with the following list:
Lands: 37
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Thespian's Stage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
Instants: 8
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
2 Crop Rotation
Sorceries: 4
4 Life from the Loam
Enchantments: 4
4 Exploration
Artifacts: 8
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
Sideboard: 15
3 Dark Confidant
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thalia, guardian of Thraben
2 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Revoker is very good, I brought it in almost every matchup for things like vials, DRS, jace, Liliana, even gravehate like relic.
A short report from my last Legacy Open, in Bourgoin-Jallieu, France, 38 players (as I remember).
First, my 75 :
//Artifact (8)
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
//Enchantment (4)
4 Exploration
//Instant (8)
2 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
//Sorcery (4)
4 Life from the Loam
//Land (36)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 Dark Confidant
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
I usually play 2 Entomb in place of the Crop Rotation. But at the last minute, I proceed to change these two, as I expect lot of Gravehate with Darkrite Shaman every where.
This was a really good move. I really love to combo at instant speed with Crop Rotation, even if I loose the versatility of Entomb.
Match 1 - Sneak - Show and Tell (Griselbrand Emrakul)
Round 1
I lead with Mox and Exploration. He follow by a land drop and go.
I then drop a land, cast Life from the Loam, dredge into it with Thicket and start to lock the board with a wasteland.
A bit of draw go later, he eventually Show and Tell a Griselbrand while I show a Maze of Ith. He Draw 7 and fall to 12 PV.
I then lock him out of lands, and he scooped.
Round 2
out : -1 Life from the Loam, - 3 Explosive, -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Zuran Orb, -3 Punishing Fire, -1 Groove, -2 Thicket, -1 Academy Ruins, -1 Crop Rotation
ins : +4 Dark Confidant, +4 Sphere, +3 Krosan Grip, +3 Chalice
He lead with a land drop and go.
I follow by a land, 2 Mox and 2 Sphere.
He was half to scoop, but keep fighting with another land drop and go.
I draw Exploration, drop a land, play Exploration.
He scoop.
2-0 (1-0-0)
Match 2 - UWR Patriot Delver
Round 1
A ver good starting hand with Dark Depths, Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam and Lands.
I managed to make my token in the end of his 3th turn, and win on mine.
Round 2
out : -1 Karakas, -2 Intuition, -2 Explosive, -2 Punishing Fire
ins : +4 Dark Confidant, +3 Chalice
He lead with land and go.
I drop a land, Mox, and cast Dark Confidant, which get Forced.
He draw a bolt (I think) and send it into my PV.
I didn't find any good card while he cast TNN.
Round 3
Pretty the same scenario, except I didn't see Dark Confidant or any combo piece.
1-2 (1-0-1)
Match 3 - UW Miracle
Round 1
A very slow game, He start beating with snap caster, and I eventually make a 20/20 end of his turn (with Crop Rotation) while he was full tap.
Round 2
outs : -1 Karakas, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Punishing Fire
ins : +4 Dark Confidant, +3 Krosan Grip
He quickly find Jace, and I didn't find any answer, and loose the game off the ultimate.
Round 3
He quickly land Rest in Peace and few turn later Miracle 4 Angels.
On my side, I start the Creeping Tar Pit beat-down.
End of his turn, the judge say end of time, last 5 turns.
I managed to make a 20/20. He didn't find any Terminus / STP or Jace.
In the very last turn, he was creature-less. I attack and prey for victory.
He use his Top 4 time with 3 fetch to finally find the only Vendilion Clique he packed and stop my token.
I was in depression :/
1-1 (1-1-1)
Match 4 - BWG (Mom, Shaman, Thoughtseize, STP, Scryb Ranger)
Round 1
I really was loosing this round. He was with 2 Shaman and Scryb Ranger. No way to use Life from the Loam.
He put me at 3 PV. Then I finally draw Punishing Fire, kill all his Shaman (luckily he dosent really know how to remove my punishing Fire from the game. When I cast it, he promptly tap he second Shaman to remove my Punishing Fire. I then say "in response, I take a red mana from Groove, and return it into my hand".)
My Maze and this punishing Fire save the game. I then start to Life from the Loam, and few turn later I made a 20/20.
He loose while all his friends where sitting near him. At the end of the game, they tell he was with STP in hand but didn't know it works with indestructible.
Round 2
outs : -1 Karakas, -2 Intuition, -1 Glacial Chasm
ins : +4 Dark Confidant
Dark Confidant where king. I draw me so many cards while not loosing a single PV from it.
Few turns later I fight his PV with a 20/20.
2-0 (2-1-1)
Match 5 - UW Miracle (again...)
Round 1 and 2 where so identical.
He already knew what I was playing. I think he mulligan because of that (twice).
Jace made the work while he kept all his STP and terminus for Creeping Tar Pit and the token.
0-2 (2-1-2)
Match 6 : I was upset, drop and go home with my car.
Overall, the deck is not that easy to play. You really have to control the white mana from your opponent while locking the board, which take time.
I never end a single match under 45minutes.A good move could be +1 Dark Depths and +1 Thespian to draw more naturally into it.
I say thank you to my friend who give me Tabernacle for this tournament.
Your list looks pretty standard and i want ot congrat you for pushing lands despite the result (which is just a circunstance).Quote:
Originally Posted by markkugel
Some ups and down of your list:
-Many peolple would say that urborg is not necesary but i really like the card as much as riftstone portal. Makes our no mana lands mana bombs.
-3 EE is great manner for dealing TNN nowadays i think it's a necesary number.
-Make consistent oponent mana control is hard job. Run a full set for port for this aim. If you are going to win with a guy (tar pit or mary) your best friends are port and wasteland and in the case pit, zuran orb adds to the list.
-Why did you choose U-sea? Maybe a second bayou or the 3rd trop are better options. Remember that you actualy run 4 mox, urborg and 1 bayou for getting 1 black mana.
-In agreement with you i think that crop rotation and perhaps camble are the best tutors that you can have beside intuition.
Would you mind to share a brief report?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkii
GC.