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Hey Fiery Balrog,
I'm considering picking up Geddon Stax because I expect there to be a lot of combo in my meta, but I also want to be prepared for the inevitables of zoo, fish, and goblins. I am hoping you can post the list you are currently running.
thanks.
I'm not balrog but i've run the deck for long time and gave it uo for a while and i want to restart with it with the banning of survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by amppyou
Here's my list (the more successful one) for comments:
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven
7 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Karmic Justice
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
What do you thing of Karmic Justice in the side??
I agree. Against deck like you mentioned fulled of permanent removal, karmic justice is a great option!Quote:
i've read in some places that Karmic Justice is one of the most valuable tools you have vs. Pernicious Deed. I haven't played this deck before, but Rock was a pretty popular choice during the tail end of the survival meta. I'm sure others will be playing b/g rockish decks since the deck is usually considered to have 50% game 1 vs. everything thanks to its discard
It's important to not overextend even with Karmic Justice, though. You'll eat their board with KJ but if you have anything worth blowing up there will be little of relevance on their side of the board. With the exception of lands, which is definitely a saving grace. KJ's worthless if they can play around the stuff you played (simultaneously making it easier because you drew one less lock piece) or if they don't draw Deed. It's not as good an option as I'd like but it certainly helps.
It works well against pinpoint removal, though, as what you'll get will basically be an O-Ring (at least one) but they have to spend a relevant card. On the flip side, it won't actually protect your most important pieces, just make trading for them unfavorable.
I have found O-Ring to be a very satisfying answer to Deed, provided the mana denial works enough to keep them off six mana. A fast Smokestack also works well. Neither will save your Moxen and Chalices, though (not that KJ would but at least you get to geddon them). Suppression Field helps, or Needle out of the board. That's assuming they're justified in the relevant metagame, though. Both work reasonably well against Vial decks, too. (Vial is instrumental in swarming the board with permanents to overload Smokestack, especially early on. Plus, of course, it produces quick starts. And makes Disenchant Cat free to play.)
Cataclysm? good or not good?
Too situation-dependant. It looks like the perfect fit; the theory looks nice. I was playing two for a while since I don't own Ravages. It certainly can leave you in an extremely comfortable position, but it does so surprisingly rarely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parax
It's dependent on what exactly it is you have out, and whether you need all of it. Let's not forget that other decks will be casting permanents too, (even CounterTop can screw us royally) and they also will seek to maximize their impact. Stax is quite well-known for achieving its denial by a multitude of interlocking lock pieces rather than just one or two.
In any situation where you'd be able to walk away with both an artifact and an enchantment, Armageddon will probably buy more time. With the exception of creature swarms. Against a swarm, CC would at least prevent any further activated abilities and also help get Smokestack going without Crucible. Geddon is better against a single fattie (it's also better against Vial since it leaves them with no mana for tax payments). Creature swarms aren't all that common nowadays and there's enough swarm control available anyway.
The problems are compunded by Disenchant Cat, which will eat your best permanent in response to CC, quite possibly leaving you with something irrelevant or something that can be played around more easily. It's impossible to Cataclysm and reliably maintain a Crucible/Stack lock. And CC just plain sucks with O-Ring on the table.
Did you guys see the new Mirrodin Besieged cards? Inkmoth Nexus is looks REALLY good imo.
With this, we have another way to take our opponents down :O And its a land so its recurring :) I don't like how they have so many bombs to hate on artifacts now =/
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...5vff04e_en.jpg
I'm not sure I see why inkmoth nexus is so strong in this shell. Is the 10 turn clock in a land really all that relevant? I mean, I guess with crucible you can slowly run down creatures, but that seems like a slow an ineffective strategy...
I could maybe see it if manlands were the only creatures in the deck ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
But then I'd come to my senses and realize that a 3/3 blocker trumps a 1/1 blocker, infect flyer or no. I can see some merit in nibbling away at an attacking Goyf that's too large to block profitably with Mishra's. But you need Crucible either way, and the only difference is that they'll lose a Goyf five to six turn from now, which isn't worth Inkmoth's inability to kill Nacatls/Lions/Fish in defensive combat (and without the support of Crucible, no less).
I tend to win more games by Magus beatdown than via Factories - and I'm not even playing Elspeth or Baneslayer or anything. Attacking with manlands is something I do when I can't/shouldn't play anything new. We're not in a hurry, are we ;)
So i'm full of newb questions, as i really like this deck and would love for it to work.
I hear often that this would be the best deck in the format if it didn't beat itself due to bad topdecks. Why wouldn't it run Enlightened Tutor in the spots of the 4 ofs that we don't want to see multiples of? The Tutors would basically grab everything we could want from the deck (Exceot Elspeth and Magus) but everything else is free game. Up Elspeth to 3 and keep Magus to 4.
Because ET
1) sucks with Chalice, 3sphere, and Smokestack
2) eats a card
3) needs a turn
ET is a solid t1 play but later only becomes worse most of the times. It's a lategame spell unless we can spare W in the early game, while being made worse not only by our own lock pieces, but also by its delayed impact. If you really need something specific after the first few turns, chances are you want it early rather than late. Sure, if you need something specific, it still might help more a turn later.
The problem remains that we're losing at least a turn (two under 3sphere) and sacrificing two draws to get only one card (particularly problematic with Smokestack) - if we don't have Chalice out, at which point we're down one card anyway. Another point is that basically anyone with access to W and G is playing Quasali Pridemage. ET offers a tasty 2-for-one for the Cat. Plus, everybody with access to G will be bringing in Grips for the same effect. Also, counterspells - again, the same problem.
It's a fine sb choice if you really, really want something t2 consistently. I played a bunch of E-Tutors sb against combo for a while so I could get at Chalice/3sphere t2 more consistently without hurting my chances of t1 Chalice/3sphere. I could only do that because there are maindeck cards that are utterly dead against combo and because Chalice had enough of an impact to make up for subsequently dead ETs.
This is not the case in most matchups, however. In most cases, all lock pieces will do something. In fact, against most decks you want a mixture, starting as early as possible. ET does something better, but a turn later, and for the cost of a card, while not playing well with lock pieces already in place.
"Why don't I run E Tutor" is the first thing I thought of when trying this deck as on theory it seems amazing. It's terrible, don't run it. Chalice @ 1 is very common and is your second best turn 1 play in most matchups. Also costing a whole turn in this deck sucks.
Hey guys thanks for the comments on the ET. After much debate i think i'm going to have to agree with it. I think that i really want to make the "top decks matter" and am pretty determined to do it.
How are people liking Crystal Ball? I know many people are playing it in Dutch Stax, but is it viable here too?
Does anyone splash red to any sucsess? We could utilize Goblin Welder and Ajani V pretty well i think.
Let's put it this way: I've cut copies of Smokestack for more Crystal balls. It's not like Top, you can dig deeper the more you have. It's amazing in a deck that has no other manipulation. I suggest 3.
-MAtt
Thanks for your patience Matt, you mind posting up your list? I'm only running 3 Smokestack as it is, so how many are you playing with the CB? I can't seem to warrant the cuts without watering down the whole deck. Should i drop a 3sphere, a Stack and a Land (Ancient Tomb maybe).
Here's a list I've been fooling around with on MWS for a few weeks:
2 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Sun Titan
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
2 Aura of Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
I've basically cut Somkestack for a Tangle Wire based list. It's been pretty good, but it still bends over to Merfolk and needs more answers for Gaddock Teeg.
I don't have any real experience with this deck... but I have a few ideas and questions.
Why play creatures? even with chalice at 1 magus and baneslayer are just begging to die.
Is Tangle Wire that good? I don't like a fading control element but the temporal buff might be worth it?
Why no love for Maze of Ith? It seems like a really good follow up after armageddon. Taxing creatures even more, especially those stoneforge mystics ...>)
The curve is quite high as it is so I figured the Maze could take slots from O-rings and such.
Sideboard? what cards are hot at the moment?
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Ghostly Prison
SORCERIES (4)
4 Armageddon
PLANESWALKERS (4)
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACTS (20)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
LANDS (28)
4 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
8 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Suppression Field
2 Karmic Justice
3 Defense Grid
Does anyone feel like Smokestacks is too slow in the current format? Suitable replacements? I've been testing Loadstone Golem...kind of meh so far.
What do you guys do against junk? It has been infesting my meta and it's a really hard matchup between the discard the permanent destruction and many three drops.
Why oh why do people think tangle wire is a good choice? What does it do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hashinator89
Turn 1: it stops either of you from doing much(except for their first turn if you're on the play), while this doesn't seem so bad it's actually horrible, you give them time to build up mana while hindering your ability to play lock pieces.
Turn 2: after a chalice at 1 it actually seems decent, but then it goes away and you're left wishing you had dropped another lock piece instead of again letting them get lands while you can't play many lock pieces.
later than that it's basically a fog for a couple of turns, again I would want a lock piece here unless they got a dreadnought or progenitus, but either way once the wire is gone you're still probably going to lose. Don't forget 8 of your lands tap for two mana, that means quite frequently tapping 1 land will make you lose 2 mana which is our main advantage over other decks. I guess if you have 2 other lock pieces out it only taps your opponents stuff but we want to be consistently putting down permanent mana denial pieces not playing cards that are only good to give you tempo in the late game. Smoke stack at least can act as resource denial in a pinch while also being a win condition and lock piece.
We play magus because it is mana denial, creature kill and a win condition all in one, yes it will probably be killed if they can but most of the time against aggro decks they will have to give up a creature if they want to kill it while tying up their mana in which case they lose a turn and 2 cards for your one. Not to mention it blocks goyf almost all day. We need something more than ghostly to deal with creatures, it's basically this, tabernacle(the land) or wrath. tabernacle it a viable choice I just prefer magus because it is much more flexible and works much better with geddon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Baneslayer on the other hand is a little different but similar in some ways. Obviously she's a finisher that goes without saying, she can be quite devastating on turn three or four and especially the very unlikely turn two play, she can single handedly save you in the aggro match up where the game can quickly get away from you if they get a couple things out ahead of you. almost every finisher this deck has used has had lifelink and that's because ancient tomb damage can get out of hand very easily especially now that most people play horizon canopy and because again because of aggro.
on maze of ith, this is a very mana intensive deck, running lands that don't tap for mana dangerous. tabernacle is usually fine because you play it as a 1 of or 2 if you're feeling ballsy. Now you could play maze as a one of too but kor haven is jut as good in this deck because not activating immediately after a geddon is made up for the fact that it actually takes up a land slot and not a spell slot.
I don't think I would play this deck without at least 2 orings(I play 3) again because of their flexibility, they are the only spot removal we have and it can target other perms too. Since we have no card selection we need our cards to fill as many roles as possible. I, and many others, couldn't find a way to make crystal ball viable unless I was cutting stacks out completely since less than three wasn't consistent enough, even then I never found a point where I wouldn't rather have a lock piece except late game(where I usually already had a semi lock and was looking for a way to finish the game before they found an answer, of course most of the time stack would win the game itself here) or if I had a bad hand. Even with a bad hand the ball wouldn't help because it's so slow but I guess it's better than stack there.
I think it is slow most of the time but there will always be match up where it is great and dropping a combination of crucible and stack turns and 2 usually ends the game. I play 3 and it is usually the first card to take out but I think there are more times when it wins you the game than where it's too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by JadeOberg
I was wondering how often it matters that elspeth pumps goyf for your opponents. I'm thinking of diversifying my win cons from 2 baneslayer, I tried wurmcoil it seemed to be on the same level as baneslayer a little better if you see a lot of dreadnoughts and proggies but doesn't get past their smaller dudes and sometimes worse if you see a lot of tombstalkers. I think elspeth is the next thing I'm going to try.
I try to win 1, board out Trinispheres and chalices or some one ofs (depending you feel the play extirpate or deboard swords), board in Dumping Matrix and pithing needle, than I hope in top deck mode for waste lock, O-ringing Confidants and getting Crucible seems crucial to meQuote:
Originally Posted by Sammich
tanglewire is not good with white and even in brown stax in my personal experience