Aside the SDT/Street Wraith topic, this looks like the conceptual construct I was talking about last month and got shot down because "Burning Wish is better than DTT!". Glad you tested the idea and liked it as much as I did ;)
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Aside the SDT/Street Wraith topic, this looks like the conceptual construct I was talking about last month and got shot down because "Burning Wish is better than DTT!". Glad you tested the idea and liked it as much as I did ;)
Well, SDT is a major factor in allowing you to be good at executing Doomsday without Burning Wish and without Dig Through Time. Dig Through Time offers an additional dimension for times when you burn through your cantrips looking for the missing piece as well as providing a more powerful and threatening card in hand. I mentioned before in my response that I wouldn't fault people for playing DTT for its overall powerlevel and that 4 DD + 4 DTT could be very good, but testing would be needed to see if the higher powerlevel was worth the reduced utility. It seems to be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by emidln
- The 4th Dig, Multiples can be awkward when drawn early in the game.
- Cut Tendrils, etc, play LabMan Doomsday with Forces in the Main, when I tested it, I had a ~60%-65% win rate
- Decay, Mentor isn't required, and IMO isn't good enough to play white for, while it is strong it makes planing a line you want to take to win more difficult.
- No, It was never really impressive, always pretty good, but with no BW and with DtT to regain Card Advantage it's not needed.
- Play Maniac DD, with Forces Main, SB 3 Counterbalance.
Cutting Tendrils and LED causes you to lose explosiveness and become extremely dependent on the opponent lacking pressure + disruption. Without LED, you cannot efficiently play through Abrupt Decay, causing your pile requirements to skyrocket as you need spare blue cards for Misdirection and/or spare mana for Thoughtseize/Therapy. It also still leaves you often requiring additional mana to beat yard hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhenlo
My thoughtsQuote:
Originally Posted by emidln
- I'm currently trying 3 DTT with the 7th discard. I'm hesitant to drop below 17 lands with only 1 petal.
- 4 decay and extra discard out of the board has been working for me.
- I am trying both. 4 decay and 3 Mentor. If I had to choose it would be decay
- I think we do. REB/Pyroblast are real things and in some cases makes stacking discard in pile easier.
- I have 1 piece of extra discard in the board (duress atm) and 2 Flusterstorms. Sooo my guess is 3.
That's what I'm trying. I'm having fun testing the new style.
I can wrap my head around wanting to play some Forces in the main-deck, especially if the deck goes up to 7 disruption pieces, as3 Forces and 4 discard spells seems like a legit plan against decks. I know not playing 4 Forces is sacrilege, but I would find dipping below 4 discard spells in a deck with 4 Probes unacceptable. I can't wrap my head around wanting to bring Forces out of the sideboard though. Your opponent is just going to be running more Pyroblasts, and you have better cards to side vs control. It's really good vs combo, but so is extra discard.
Counterbalance out of the side looks extremely interesting. I think I'd try to keep the deck UBg and keep it down to Decays, Grips, and some Swarms in the side-board, and omit Monastery Mentor.
Why can't you consider Force out of the sideboard? Would you want to draw that vs Delver? Holding a Force and an LED expecting to win this turn would be awfully awkward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
Hey there everyone! I was on YouTube when I came across this video: http://bit.ly/1SmrFZG
Does anyone have the list to Jasons 5-c list? It seems interesting and I've been coming up short of finding it to take it for a spin.
That's me on camera there :smile:. The list I'm playing there (5C Doomsday with Mox Opal) has gone through some changes, the main difference is the removal of the artifact lands for more fetchlands (I found that with a single cantrip the chances of having a Mox Opal without metalcraft is less than 3%, so the artifact lands were not necessary). The deck has performed rather well and the inclusion of the additional fast mana speeds up the deck tremendously (faster than ANT and traditional Doomsday by at least half a turn) at the cost of consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rishadan
This list experimental and definitely not optimized. Some quick notes:
-In Game 1, if Silence was a discard spell (even Cabal Therapy likely loses to Dig Through Time), I lose this game
-Empty the Warrens on turn 1/2 is a common line of play with the additional fast mana
-The mana is not as bad as it looks!
-Silence into Time Spiral is a valid and moderately used late game play against control decks
-Given a Mox Opal in hand and a cantrip, the likelihood of enabling metalcraft is over 85% on turn 2
-Casting Doomsday without Dark Ritual is easy with 7 Lotus Petal + Mox Opal + Chromatic Sphere
-Chromatic Sphere is good for enabling Metalcraft and fixing mana
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that this is better than the traditional Doomsday lists, but I will say it's incredibly fun!
Maindeck
Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chromatic Sphere
Protection
3 Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
Business
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Ideas Unbound
Mana
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Mox Opal
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Karakas
Wishboard
1 Void Snare
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Time Spiral
1 Doomsday
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
Void Snare may not be as important since we can sideboard in the Laboratory Maniac win condition and Karakas to bounce Gaddock Teeg/Thalia in our Doomsday pile; it may be better as a 2nd Grafdigger's Cage (decent in the fast combo mirror; lots of Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, and Elves in my meta).
Do you have a list for this style?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhenlo
1 Laboratory ManiacQuote:
Originally Posted by cdnza
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Thought Scour
1 Unearth
1 Predict
4 Doomsday
2 Dark Petition
3 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
8 Fetch
SB
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Counterbalance
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Massacre
2 Dig Through Time
This list is good against Miracles, but does give up a lot in other match ups.
This list looks really interesting, thanks for posting! What are you siding Counterbalances in against? I think I'm going to try a Dark Petition list out this weekend.
Because I honestly don't play this deck, so I don't have first hand experience seeing FoW come out of the side and doing some work. My gut tells me that siding in a counter that has inherent card-disadvantage is a bad idea though, especially as it's blue and can run into more REB effects post-board, which is a legitimate concern. And yeah, agreed on the LED part. Your main-deck looks good, and I will be trying to play it later as I love DTT.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Btw, what are you siding Force against, and are you siding out LED's when you do it? I assume so by the comment. Like, side out LED and Tendrils, and side into FoW+more disruption with a LabMan kill?
over 95% of the time they will use their counter on the Doomsday not post Doomsday so IMO LED and Force in the same list can work; but is usually not optimal protection.
You side out atleast 1 LED against Miracles anyway because the match up is slower and you don't need as much mana, and multiple LEDs can be dead draws, allso you want Force against Miracles.
Counterbalence is for spell combo match ups in general; like Storm, Omnitell, Reanimator etc.
also the 2 DtTs come in against slower match ups for the 2 Cabal Ritual.
I play Doomsday a lot in both Vintage and Legacy. This is more true in Vintage than in Legacy. Vintage decks have Yawgmoth's Will and multiple card advantage spells, which tends to mean that the advantage gained by letting Doomsday resolve to fight over the first draw spell is poor EV. In Legacy, by not countering Doomsday you don't lose much (unless you have lethal on board) but you gain the possibility of winning a fight over Ideas Unbound/Brainstorm/Predict/Mental Note leaving the opponent with multiple turns of doing nothing (that's if they're killing via Lab Man, if it's a Tendrils kill, you likely won outright). If they have a Lab Man pile and are Brainstorming into Duress + continuing to combo, your opponent needs more mana to pull this off, and possibly still face down "The Mana Drain problem" where you have two relevant cards in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhenlo
I side out all but a single LED (I only play 3 to begin with). I only keep one because it allows for efficient piles using Chromatic Sphere (win this turn and pass the turn). LED is a dead draw, Dark Ritual is often a dead draw and Lotus Petal is better off as a land. Tendrils leaves entirely since storming out is extremely difficult (particularly given that they might have Flusterstorms) since it requires amassing cards in hand (even if we need way fewer than ANT). You want Force of Will here to trade for the only spells that matter (Counterbalance, Canonist, Jace, and Mentor/Entreat). It's true that Force might randomly make it into a pile or protect a quick Doomsday, but you're bringing in the card to supplement Abrupt Decays and discard spells. They have a lot of disruption and a few kill spells. You have a lot of disruption and a few kill spells. Your kill spells tend to also find spare disruption to force themselves through, and in general are lower mana than theirs.Quote:
You side out atleast 1 LED against Miracles anyway because the match up is slower and you don't need as much mana, and multiple LEDs can be dead draws, allso you want Force against Miracles.
The card disadvantage for Force of Will isn't super relevant if you're not required to use it to defend your combo against attrition decks (Delver variants, Esper Mentor). The ability to stop Chalices, Counterbalances and the few win conditions our most problematic opponents play while slowing them down (turbo entreat/jace/mentor isn't a very good plan to play towards if your opponent has countermagic, you have to slow down to defend your entreat) is what we're after. In several matchups, it's better than Duress (mostly against aggro) so you side it in, but you aren't required to Force the first thing they play. Doomsday often doesn't care about most of their cards, so unless they're threatening to KO (Thalia, Natural Order, Glimpse with a bunch of cards in hand and mana up), etc there isn't a good reason to cast it. Duress was dead anyway, and Force might get lucky to nab a piece of hate you weren't expecting (anyone can play Thorns, Mindbreak Traps, etc). The reason we don't start it is that our primary game plan is actually very good against the field. We can kill extremely fast and aren't particularly vulnerable to commonly played maindeck cards. Being a Duress Tendrils deck with a Lab Man backup to enable pass the turn piles or winning through odd maindeck hate is a reasonable strategy to begin with. Duress/Thoughtseize/Therapy are often much better at defending us than Force of Will, unless we need to defend against Counterbalance/Chalice on the stack.
As to playing just lab man with stacking draw triggers as the only way of beating removal spells, I'll just say that I don't think having 3 draws plus the mana for them available to win the game is a viable strategy when opponents are threatening lethal and can keep up all their lands. Even having misdirection available isn't that great (although the provided list lacked that) as having spare cards in hand vs aggro is rough. I really wouldn't want to be the Doomsday deck I side into to gain percentage against Miracles against a Jund, Junk, or Delver deck (which is what is essentially being proposed). Also, I'm pretty sure that if you play that list, you want to have Abrupt Decay in the maindeck over Chain of Vapor. Doomsday as vamp for Abrupt Decay + combo is a real thing against Miracles, and I'm struggling thinking of places where Chain of Vapor would be better than Abrupt Decay that aren't solved by Lab Man already (maybe Humility or Night of Soul's Betrayal is a huge part of mhenlo's meta?; random value off SDT can't be so great as to take Chain when Chalice and CB decks are being played in numbers).
First result od DDFT with Dark Petition I've seen posted anywhere: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17678&iddeck=133157 Yes, only 14 players but it's something.
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Doomsday
1 Past in Flames
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
2 Dark Petition
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Emrakul, the AEons Torn
SB: 1 Shelldock Isle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
In conclusion: 2 Dark Petition, 1 PiF, 0 BW, 0 DTT, EtW & Draw4 to side in.
@DireNTropy: You've got me interested in Mox Opal when you played in February a version with Seat of the Synod + Defense Grid + Mox Opal. I was thinking about possible ways to play: a) Mox Opal + Defense Grid + 1 Ad Nauseam; b) Mox Opal + Pithing Needle + Emrakul + Shelldock Isle. Unfortunately I never had time to test it ;)
I'd be really interested in trying this list out (or something close to it). A few remarks:Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviruchi
- 15 lands seems low with only 1 petal.
- I'd love to fit in a singleton Lab Man in the main, but I'm really not sure what, if anything, can be cut. It might be a red herring but it always appealed to me that Doomsday was able to win through some amount of hate and that it needed this option due to being a little on the slower end of the combo-spectrum. With no Bwish and no Lab Man we don't really have any of that game flexibility to beat Teeg for instance.
Just look at my list from last page. I played 1 chain md and more lands.
I do think empty with only 1 petal is mot worth and 16 lands is a muss.
Labman is not really worth md. You can play it. I would use it with chromatic sphere if I would play it. I dont like to loose to spot removal.
Thanks for the list Jason! Other than your usual LED, IU, LED, LED, BW pile that I saw in the videos and stream, what are some other quick piles that you have made in order to win?
The piles are almost identical to those used in traditional Doomsday; the biggest difference is the 1 turn speed boost gained when drawing an active Mox Opal and the higher probability of casting a fast Empty the Warrens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rishadan
For a more comprehensive list of piles I would suggest checking out the storm boards (see emidln's signature). The most commonly used alternate piles I won't be going over here are pass the turn piles which can use Burning Wish into Time Spiral or Doomsday to generate storm and piles that have a protection spell built into it (replace an LED with a Silence and increase the mana required by 4).
The most commonly used piles with Ideas Unbound into Burning Wish have 2 requirements:
1. Cast Ideas Unbound
2. Draw into Burning Wish with 2 Lion's Eye Diamond in play
In general this means that the resources required between your pile and your hand need to meet the following requirements (after casting Doomsday):
1. Mana - UU+mana required for cantrips
2. 2 Draw effects (1 Sensei's Divining Top) can be used for both draws
The piles are determined by the resources in hand; much of the speed of this deck requires knowing that cantrips can be turned into a Lion's Eye Diamond after casting Doomsday and the following are the basic piles in order of required mana after casting Doomsday (mana for cantrips is counted as 0); the storm count is the number of spells cast counting Doomsday:
1 Cantrip + Top (Cantrip mana, 8 Storm):
LED
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Burning Wish
2 Cantrip (R+Cantrips, 9 storm):
LED
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Burning Wish
1 Cantrip (UU + Cantrip, 8 storm):
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish
1 Top (UU1, 7 storm; 2 additional storm may be generated for UU2):
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Burning Wish
X
One tip I have for playing the deck is to keep in mind a checklist of what is required to combo:
1a. Mana required for Doomsday (Note this means you only want to draw 1 Dark Ritual)
2a. 1 Cantrip or Sensei's Divining Top
3a. Mana for Ideas Unbound (either UU, LED, or an extra Cantrip)
or
1b. Burning Wish + Lots of mana (cast Time Spiral or Empty the Warrens)
Regarding Defense Grid - I found that this card's power is highly variable; either the card is a 3 for 1 or a Silence would be stronger. It's great to win after the opponent shows you a hand with stifle, red elemental blast, and flusterstorm, but Defense Grid is lackluster late game and is difficult to cast on the same turn as the combo, as well as not doing anything against permanent-based disruption. I would not count it towards the minimum maindeck count of 6 disruption spells but instead use it in the flex slots.
If I were to include it in the above list, the changes would probably be -1 Chromatic Sphere, -1 Duress, +2 Defense Grid