[Deck] Merfolk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

One more issue: Besides Krosan Grip (sideboard) and Tarmogoyf (main-deck), is there anything else in green that's worthwhile for us?

---

EE @ 2, Gaea's Skyfolk (very iffy), Root Maze at the SB for some Metas (actually a lot of Metas. Slows down Zoo and Thresh a little), Chameleon Colossus (probably a bad idea), Sylvan Library, that 1-drop World Enchantment that gives creatures Haste, Life from the Loam @ Wastelands and Wasted Mutavaults and duals, Temporal Spring (pet card of mine)
Selkie Hedge-Mage can bounce a Tarmogoyf that swung the turn before, and sometimes gives you back some of the life from said Goyf.
Not all of them are perfect, but then again neither are Silvergill Adept or Merfolk Sovereign

White Splash gives us more than just StP though. Didn't White Weenie decks run Armageddon? Last time I checked this deck doesn't need lands for much once Vial is online... Although a Krosan Grip in response would really suck

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guevera59

Sure Threads is a good card but it folds to both Grip and Pridemage. Running Goyfs of your own doesn't only solve your Tarmogoyf problem but it stops Lavamancers, Nacatl's, Instigators and Lackeys, its a way to deal with Piledriver. Goyf absorbs Burn and Lavamacer, he is a stand alone threat. It improves our poor match-ups by so much. Threads and Spell snare do not stop those cards nearly as well Goyf.

---

We really need to discuss the merits of goyf before people start worshiping him like the next jesus. Running Tarmogoyfs of your own does not solve your tarmogoyf problem, let's see why this happens matchup by matchup:

Blue with Goyf: Not really a problem, we islandwalk, as been said.

Goyf in sligh/zoo: Goyf against goyf in burn is a horrible thing for merfolk. Tell me how goyf lives through a lavamancer? They get a goyf out (you have no removal, you're mono blue) and you get a goyf out. Fair enough right? Wrong, they swing, you either let it through (in which case your goyf did nothing) or you block, and the lavamancer kills your goyf after combat. Okay lets say they don't have a goyf. They swing into you with a Nacatl. At most goyf is a 4/5 in this matchup (okay, 5/6 is possible, even 6/7 but let's not go wild here in our hypotheticals). You block the Nacatl? They bolt your goyf after combat. You don't block? They can always chump block your swing and bolt or lavamancer your guy to death anyway.

Goyf doesn't outclass zoo's creatures because zoo's creatures are built around goyf's power level. The reason merfolk gets destroyed is because they have tons of spot removal, which is in itself the reason why Goyf is not the answer to winning this matchup. If anything we need to splash spot removal because a resolved lavamancer is simply game over against us.

As for goblins, Mutavaults block piledriver all day long. I know they can waste or tap out Muta, but it still is an option. Stifle is the MVP card in this matchup, turning their 3cc creatures into simple 1/1s, their 4cc creatures into 2/2 hates, their 5cc creatures into 2/2 who can launch himself (or sacrifice himself to get the 2 damage stifled). I'm not at all saying that goyf is bad in this matchup, but honestly white would be better. It answers first turn lackeys when you don't hit your 4-of cursecatcher, and can simply remove their creatures before they get a chance to wreck you (like piledriver, siege-gang, and lakey/instigator).

I don't advocate a splash at all, but if you have a heavy aggro meta and need to play merfolk then white is a much better decision

Quote:

---

I fear that Merfolk has been established as the budget deck. New players to Legacy pick it up because it is cheap and simple. The current meta-game is beginning to adapt to Merfolk, Zoo is running rampant and Goblins may be getting much more popular with the advent of Instigator. This deck needs to evolve in order to overcome these new obstacles.

---

Sometimes a vanilla fatty isn't the solution to everything. I realize he is a ubiquitous giant creature with a "beat him or join him" mentality, but in the matchups you described he does very little. The white splash would help more than a 4/5 wall, waiting to get overrun. Budget or not, mono-blue is more consistent and has room for the major cards that took this deck to where it is now.




Run Stifle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Sometimes a vanilla fatty isn't the solution to everything. I realize he is a ubiquitous giant creature with a "beat him or join him" mentality, but in the matchups you described he does very little.

---

Agreed. Merfolk probably do need a splash color, though. Remember that White also gives us Meddling Mage...

If theres something id splash right now, id splash white. It has StP, Path and more importantly,,, CoPs. If your meta's infested with combo, you can throw in Meddling Mage.

Btw, been through playtesting Cosi's Trickster... On my end, its better than Curse in the AGGRO MATCHUP (Vial Goblins esp). Its also good against Thresh and Countertop. CTrick and Curse however share the same problem, theyre pretty useless mid to late game. So if you have lots of combo in your meta you obviously play the Curse. If your meta's aggro i suggest you guys try CTrick. :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Goyf in sligh/zoo: Goyf against goyf in burn is a horrible thing for merfolk. Tell me how goyf lives through a lavamancer? They get a goyf out (you have no removal, you're mono blue) and you get a goyf out. Fair enough right? Wrong, they swing, you either let it through (in which case your goyf did nothing) or you block, and the lavamancer kills your goyf after combat. Okay lets say they don't have a goyf. They swing into you with a Nacatl. At most goyf is a 4/5 in this matchup (okay, 5/6 is possible, even 6/7 but let's not go wild here in our hypotheticals). You block the Nacatl? They bolt your goyf after combat. You don't block? They can always chump block your swing and bolt or lavamancer your guy to death anyway.

Goyf doesn't outclass zoo's creatures because zoo's creatures are built around goyf's power level. The reason merfolk gets destroyed is because they have tons of spot removal, which is in itself the reason why Goyf is not the answer to winning this matchup. If anything we need to splash spot removal because a resolved lavamancer is simply game over against us.

---

What Goyf can do is slow down Zoo, you can build up an army of Merfolk while your opponents attention is focused on Goyf. He absorbs burn spells and Lavamancer's while protecting your lords. Giyf is not a keystonne creature so when he is taken out of the picture, your merfolks are not affected.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guevera59

What Goyf can do is slow down Zoo, you can build up an army of Merfolk while your opponents attention is focused on Goyf. He absorbs burn spells and Lavamancer's while protecting your lords. Giyf is not a keystonne creature so when he is taken out of the picture, your merfolks are not affected.

---

Goyf absorbs burn? I really don't understand your reasoning here, no one sits and "Lightning bolt goyf. Crap I need to burn him more than once?... go..." And he isn't Empyrial Archangel. You block or attack with him once, he gets burned by lavamancer or a single spell, and he did very little for you.

Don't forget half of the zoo decks still mainboard Price of Progress and running more splash dual lands and fetches does make a difference in whether you live or die versus their burn before you get your needed 20 damage in.

I mean that a Zoo player will focus their attention and their resources on a Tarmogoyf, which in the meantime, will take pressure off of the backs of our Lords. Take a look at this list, I can't remember the tournament name but it placed fourth, losing to Alix Hatfield and his inhuman playskill. Alix, who I feel is THE authority on Zoo, feels that Goyf is the way to go in order to compete with Zoo.

Fourth Place:
-Alex Bertoncini
Bertoncini Fish

4 Curecatcher
4 Lords of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Merfolk Sovereign
4 StandStill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Pithing Needles
4 Silvegil Adept
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropican Island

Sideboard:
3 Trinket Mage
3 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives

I also feel that your PoP argument is negligible. Splashing White would do the same.

My Current List

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
6 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
3/4 Submerge/Stifle
4 Path to Exile
3/4 Hydroblast

How are StP's working out for you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guevera59

How are StP's working out for you?

---

They have helped against Zoo and Goblins a lot.

Im still debating if Submerges are better than Stifles (which are good against combo, and blue, which got a little worse when I took them out of the main deck, but still awesome) In the board since I have proper removal now, I'm guessing not.

Against Aggro, being able to have 8 removal spells is insane.

has anyone tried Back to Basics against Zoo or its more detrimental to us since we use Mutavaults?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by (nameless one)

has anyone tried Back to Basics against Zoo or its more detrimental to us since we use Mutavaults?

---

The problem is that they already fetch basics against us, and Pridemage is an already amazing card against us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

The problem is that they already fetch basics against us, and Pridemage is an already amazing card against us.

---

Another problem with Back to Basics against Zoo is it's just a little too slow. By the time you play it, you could be staring down a Nacatl and a Goyf, or even worse, so they will have a chance to race you, even if you pull the (unlikely) best-case-scenario on B2B and play it when they have nothing but tapped-out non-basics. For three mana, I'd rather play a Propaganda or a Threads against them, because these cards will potentially dig you out of a losing situation.

My current opinion on Back to Basics is that it's a card that plays well with our strategy, but most of the match-ups I find myself bringing it in for are already favorable for us... So I'm wondering if it's actually worth space in the sideboard, unless it would really just wreck one's meta.

Thoughts?

It still is good against 2 tougher matchups which are Aggro Loam (very good against them), and landstill (not as good, but still they have to waste an EE @3 on it).

I wouldn't play it in any splashed list though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

My Current List

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
6 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
3/4 Submerge/Stifle
4 Path to Exile
3/4 Hydroblast

---

Why is your decklist 62 cards? And it's basically my list, with more Jittes, which I've dismissed as bad in all the matchups you'd want it to be good in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nightmare

Why is your decklist 62 cards? And it's basically my list, with more Jittes, which I've dismissed as bad in all the matchups you'd want it to be good in.

---

Oops, it only runs 4 Islands.

What have you deemed wrong with Jitte?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

Oops, it only runs 4 Islands

---

So it only runs 19 mana sources - 6 of which actually tap for blue - in a deck where about half your threats cost :u::u:.

Not to mention that 7 of the mana sources you have (out of a total 13) are colorless, and prone to dying, either from normal use (Wasteland) or removal/combat (Mutavault).

When I added 4 Sovereign to the deck, I ADDED another land, and I still find myself in situations where I'd love to have more sources of blue. You've also added Sov, and added the incredibly mana hungry Jitte, and removed a land, and more specifically a blue source. Two, when you compare our lists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

What have you deemed wrong with Jitte?

---

On paper, there's nothing wrong with it. I've tested it pretty extensively though, and here's my issues.

In your difficult matchups - zoo, aggroloam, etc., it requires too much investment into a single threat, which is often extremely vulnerable to removal, for too little gain. If it is unanswered for more than a turn, you're in an ok spot - by no means winning, but a positive position still. However, when you're facing a deck like zoo (where Jitte would theoretically shine) you need to

1. Not play a guy with the mana to cast Jitte
2. Not play a guy with the mana to equip Jitte
3. Not have the guy die either in response to equip, or prior to combat
4. Not have the guy die in combat

If you manage 1-3, but the guy dies in combat, you can repeat the need cycle at 2. That's a SERIOUS tempo investment to give up in the Zoo match, or any other matchup where removal is prevalent. I find that instead of investing in the equipment, it's often better to just play more guys. Especially in the 12 lord build.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nightmare

So it only runs 19 mana sources - 6 of which actually tap for blue - in a deck where about half your threats cost :u::u:.

---

Oh I think that statement is a little unfair. You can certainly count fetch lands as blue mana sources, if you couldn't why would you run them. In reality he runs 12 blue mana sources, which granted I think is still rather low, but I don't think it is accurate to say the deck only runs six.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by quicksilver

Oh I think that statement is a little unfair. You can certainly count fetch lands as blue mana sources, if you couldn't why would you run them. In reality he runs 12 blue mana sources, which granted I think is still rather low, but I don't think it is accurate to say the deck only runs six.

---

I don't think saying it runs 12 is accurate, either. I've never agreed that there is a 1-1 correlation between a fetchland and a land that taps for mana. They aren't the same thing. This doesn't prevent me from playing them, by any means, but even with 16 blue fetches and 6 blue lands, I still wouldn't call it 22 mana sources. You still have a maximum of six, no matter how many fetches you draw. I suppose in this deck, that's not entirely relevant, but I don't feel comfortable advocating a 4-basic, 2-dual, 6-fetch manabase, regardless.

Let's put it this way - You don't run enough lands. I wouldn't run any more fetches, so you'd need to add either basics, another dual, or both.

I will probably test -1 Jitte main +1 Tundra and them out of the sideboard for something else, any suggestions?

When I played mono blue, I ran 19 lands, but I guess since some of them get easily wasted, 20 would be safer