Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Since most of our main (creature/discard/animation/disrupt -wise) seems to have been put roughly into place, and since we have agreed that including a variety of creatures in the SB is a generally good idea (partly because we don't really know what else to include as the 3-4 last SB slots), I would like to get a discussion started about which creatures should be MD/SB in what kinds of metas now after New Phyrexia.
MD 7-8x creature, incl. 3 JGCA seems to be somewhat given. So 4-5 slots to play with.
SB 3-4x optional creature seems like a good number as well.
JGCA
+ Our best target
- Dredge
- Legendary (Karakas; also prevents 2nd identical animation)
- StoP
- Low power = slow racer by himself
Verdict: General target. Best creature versus unknown opponent.
Position: MD 3x
Iona, our "fallen star"
+ Mono-colored decks; however, Elesh can be better versus some mono decks with Vial (Merfolk, Goblins) and combo Elves
+ Protection versus removal by denying one color
- Often strictly worse than JGCA as T2 animation target against unknown opponent
- Legendary
- No vigilance; no blocking
Verdict: Mix of generalist and specialist target. Requires information about the opponent to be played correctly. Crushes some decks completely while merely OK against others.
Position: MD 1x + possibly SB 1x.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
+ Goblins
+ Burn (although worse than Iona)
+ Zoo
+ Non-legendary
+ Life-gain
+ Vigilance = blocking!!
+ Protection from red (Goblins, Zoo/Lightning Bolt) and green (Tarmogoyf, KotR)
- StoP
Verdict: Generalist target. Weak against StoP, otherwise excellent racer.
Position: MD 1x
Blazing Archon
+ Merfolk
+ Tokens
+ Non-legendary
- StoP
- only 6 toughness for targeted damage, without prot. red
Verdict: General target. Not too slow.
Position: MD 1x
Inkwell Leviathan
+ Landstill (Pernicious Deed is very bad removal against Leviathan)
+ Shroud
+ Non-legendary
+ Trample
- No real capabilities to defend us from taking damage, unlike Sphinx/Iona/Archon/Terastodon
Verdict: Specialist target. Good mainly against decks which do not want to kill us in combat.
Position: SB 1x ? But close to being MD stuff.
Elesh Norn
+ Decreases opponent's combat
+ Elves
+ Dredge: absolutely crushes this MU
+ Handles Belcher/TES tokens
- StoP
- Legendary
Verdict: Like Iona, a mixture of a general and specialist target. But geared more towards the specialist end. Completely useless only in combo MU; absolutely crushes some MUs. Also utility: kills even Peacekeeper.
Position: SB 1x. Comes in as a specialist "improved Blazing Archon".
Terastodon
+ 18 power = 2 turn clock
+ Removal (Humility, Moat, etc.)
+ Non-legendary
+ Provides small blockers while big Fant can bash face
- "Slow" (T3 for 3 lands)
- Risky to blow up own lands
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks (T2 animation -> T3 kill) because JGCA is strictly better in that MU. However, provides utility by removing combat-preventing non-creature permanents. Also, non-legendary.
Position: Sideboard 1x
Platinum Emperion
- FoW
- Fetches
- StoP
- No evasion
+ Non-legendary
+ Lossless Reanimates (and Thoughtseizes)
+ Excellent "last ditch resort"
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks.
Position: No longer needed for SB.
Empyrial Archangel
+ Shroud
+ Zoo; although worse than Sphinx (well, at least better than most of our other options)
+ Non-legendary
- Slow clock
Verdict: General target. Jack of all trades, but a master of none? However: amazing 2nd animation target.
Position: No longer strictly needed for SB -> META choice?
Stormtide Leviathan
+ Evasion!!
+ Larger body than B.Archon
+ Zoo
+ Non-legendary
- StoP
- Merfolk
Verdict: Specialist offense target. 3 turn clock with insane evasion, while holding back the opponent. Possibly our best creature vs Zoo? But very weak against Merfolk.
Position: META choice for SB. Close to being a SB auto-include.
META possibilities for SB:
- Empyrial Archangel
- Stormtide Leviathan
- Massacre Wurm
- Sundering Titan
- Akroma, Angel of Wrath / Fury
- Angel of Despair
- Demon of Death's Gate
- It That Betrays
- Pathrazer of Ulamog
- Sheoldred, Whispering One
- Platinum Emperion
- Magmatic Force
- Platinum Angel
- Others?
BAD choices:
- Archangel of Strife (strictly worse than Demon of Death's Gate)
...which would result in:
MD
3x JGCA
1x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Iona
1x Flex slot (Inkwell?)
(1x Flex slot - Elesh Norn or a 2nd copy of another creature?)
SB
1x Inkwell / META slot
1x Terastodon
1x Elesh Norn
(1x Iona / META slot)
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Excellent analysis.
Currently I'm playing...
3x JGCA
2x Sphinx
1x Archon
1x Iona
1x Inkwell (The weakest card in the maindeck to be sure, but it's the only creature that has Shroud, and I think it's important to always have one Shroud creature you can Entomb up when you know that your opponent is either not applying a whole lot of pressure on your life total, or when you know they are loaded with removal/bounce/sower of temptations)
maindeck (would move the Inkwell to the board if the math shows a 7 creature, 3 brainstorm configuration is almost as good as the 8 creature, 2 brainstorm configuration)
Side:
1x Elesh Norn
1x Terastodon
1x Iona (I face lots of monocolored decks)
1x Metachoice (I'm conflicted on what to play here).
Considering 1x Empyrial Archangel or 1x Platinum Emporium or 1x Sheoldred. I have never played Platinum Emporium so I have no idea how good that card is. But it definately looks like it has potential in the board. Sundering Titan looks sexy for the sideboard as well. Nuking three of their lands has got to be worthwhile right?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Platinum Emperion
- FoW
- Fetches
- StoP
- No evasion
+ Non-legendary
+ Lossless Reanimates (and Thoughtseizes)
+ Excellent "last ditch resort"
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks.
Position: No longer needed for SB.
Disagree.
+ Team america can't handle this without Jace (doesn't have throat, and R8)
+ Beats Merfolks as well as Blazing archon, reducing variance and making us less entomb dependant. (now they can kill JGCA with Dismember).
+ More than "Excellent last ditch resort", he allows us to reanimate at very low life, wich is unfair after a JGCA (-10).
Verdict: No longer needed to handle combo decks but to beat merfolks.
Position: 1x Sb slot, IMHO.
Excellent analysis, BTW.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Regarding going below four Brainstorms- while the statistics clearly show that a two Brainstorm build will have a higher chance of reanimating by turn three, the statistics are inherently flawed- they don't take into account opponent interactivity and which reanimation target you're getting out by turn three (Iona vs. MUD and Archon vs. PainterStone, for example, wouldn't be too useful). With Thoughtseize and other discard effects being a very relevant part of the general metagame, I would personally never go below four maindeck Brainstorms. That being said, if the builds with less Brainstorms turn out to have a dramatically higher third-turn average percentage rate (currently, 73.1% vs. my build's 71.5%), like over 5%, I would definitely consider it.
@Karhumies- I completely agree with your reanimation target analysis. 3 Jin, 1 Iona, 1 Sphinx, 1 Archon, and 1-2 flex slots (I play just Inky) main, with Elesh Norn and Rasta Don as the only for sure sideboard ones with another 1-2 meta slots. Elesh Norn is amazing against a surprisingly wide amount of the field, but against a lot of decks it's just a 4/7, which is why it shouldn't be in consideration for the main. I'd add Realm Razer and Platinum Angel to your meta possibilities list.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
@ Alsan: Merfolk can block P.Emperion to death (no evasion), which is why I consider him sub-par to the flying Archon (for which they need insanely pumped Coralhelm Commander) in that MU as a primary animation target.
While I agree that P.Emperion is good to Reanimate at low health, that is pretty much what I meant as "last ditch effort": he's good when you are at low life and need to stabilize somehow. As a first target, he seems never to be the best choice, and offensively, he lacks evasion completely, which makes him a defensive choice by definition.
I believe that P.Emperion is much worse now after New Phyrexia, since we are running 4x FoW, 4x Mental Misstep, even less basics than previously, more fetches, even less Thoughtseize than previously. I love the card, but he fits our current strategy poorly atm. I mean, even with Jin-Gitaxias out to compliment him, he negates most of our protection spells to keep Jin (or even himself) alive versus opposing topdecks! It's almost win-less rather than win-more in some instances, making him a fringe card. Also, Zoo (tough match-up) hits Emperion with Qasali Pridemage. We need something to improve our bad MUs rather than make our already good MUs even better. Merfolk often lose to fast Iona on blue, often to Archon by himself, sometimes even Inkwell can out-race them, and Elesh Norn can wipe their board & keep it clean if put into play early enough. We don't really need the extra P.Emperion in that MU.
As for Team America, I am not familiar with that MU because the deck is not at all present in my metagame. Which can explain my omission of P.Emperion's capabilities when listing the stats. But even if it would be great in that single MU, I still argue that it's a META call for SB instead of a general auto-include for SB.
EDIT: Went through some TA deck lists for reference. Seems like they have 0 outs versus Inkwell leviathan and typically only 4 outs to Blazing Archon, who does not prevent us from Forcing their response of Jace(4 mana = slow!)/Go For the Throat (the real threat for Archon). Archon even hits harder than their 1x Tombstalker/Vendilion Clique; P.Emperion can be blocked to death by Tarmogoyf + second creature. Also, they seem to have very little responses to a resolved Terastodon. The real problems in this MU would seem to be MD T2 Hymn to Tourach (Mental Misstep misses; Spell Pierce would have hit), SB Leyline of the Void to buy them time for higher mana cost responses to our strategy, and SB Llawan (if they have chosen to run some), which is their only out to Inkwell. But yes, unless they run Maelstrom Pulse (and many players seem to do that nowadays), it seems like their removal sucks versus big artifact creatures (Dismember + Go for the Throat + sometimes Smother). Also, it looks like TA's artifact hate of choice is Null Rod. That's good for us.
@ KevinTrudeau: Platinum Angel's 4/4 stats is not a lot. Also, the Angel is vulnerable to artifact removal and bounce (e.g. Hurkyl's Recall). Powerful effect, weak creature. Fast Jin is almost always better, and late-game I prefer P.Emperion because of no life loss from Reanimate and faster clock versus non-creature decks. But yes, it could be included in the list as an out versus opposing unorthodox win conditions, such as milling effects, e.g. PainterStone / HelmLine.
Realm Razer...what match is that really good at? Don't we win versus Lands.DEC with Inkwell already? And who would e.g. play Dark Depths and proceed to pass the turn? RR does take care of opposing Karakas, but still, a 4/2 body is not at all great. The opponent can pretty much ignore the existence of the creature, play new lands and continue to beat our face. While RR will simultaneously probably mana screw us and slow our next animation attempt. Am I missing something here?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
I don't know why you say Stormtide Leviathan is strictly inferior to Blazing Archon.
What would you rather have vs. Goblins? Vs. Elves? Vs. Zoo? Vs. any one of a hundred tribal decks that are not Merfolk or Fairies? I think Stormtide is better in all those matchups. It has a faster clock, is harder to block, and it takes three burn spells to kill, where as Archon can be killed with just two.
What am I missing?
Yes, it's worse against Merfolk, but it's better than Blazing Archon with most other matchups. It has better evasion than Blazing Archon and it swings for a lot more damage. It also kills a turn or two faster. And it's even pitchable to FoW.
I think it's a viable alternative to Blazing Archon if you don't anticipate Merfolk in the meta, and should definately be a META possibilty.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
I don't know why you say Stormtide Leviathan is strictly inferior to Blazing Archon.
That was a honest mistake on my part due to tiredness when re-reading the card through. I was focusing too much on the "does not prevent flyers or Lord of Atlantis + friends from attacking" -part, and not enough on the "all lands are now islands"-part. Yes, the extra P/T can make all the difference in the world when racing, and the evasion is indeed better than Archon's. And S.Leviathan even costs 1 life less to Reanimate. The recent inclusion of Mental Misstep may actually make this guy very playable, although Elesh Norn has a somewhat overlapping purpose in the SB. He's certainly an offense creature, and fits our current setup quite well IMO. I should playtest him more, I guess.
After all, Stormtide Leviathan is one of the very few creatures we have available who can fight through a resolved opposing Vampire Nighthawk by himself.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Well the big nock against S.Leviathan is that he week against the most popular deck in legacy right now (fish) and does not stop Emrakul, which IMHO is kind of important currently. I think those large two weekness of S. Leviathan gives B. Archon the edge as a catch all answer for most reanimator lists.
Doesn't the Sphinx plow right throught vampier nighthawk with first strike?
Also when you look at other aggro decks like, zoo, gobo's, and the like S.Leviathn and B. Archon in general is not your best option. I would believe that the Sphinx would be your number one target as there really isn't a better monster to race with them.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Doesn't the Sphinx plow right throught vampier nighthawk with first strike?
deathtouch
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
but it doesn't do damage right?
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Sphinx is not pro black. OTOH it has first strike so it should kill the Nighthawk. You're right.
on the topic of S. Leviathan, it's there as a backup plan to Archon in case it gets exiled.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Nighthawk won't get the chance to deal damage to Sphinx because it will be gone after the first strike combat damage step.
@Karhumies- you're right about Razer, he doesn't seem that good. I just thought it could be a meta answer to Maze of Ith, Karakas, 43 Lands, and blue Counterspell decks, but Inky does all of that already. My bad. I figured Angel should be in the vague realm of possibilities for sideboard targets because of the reasons you mentioned, Grindstone and Helm of Obidience.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Karhumies
That was a honest mistake on my part due to tiredness when re-reading the card through.
No problem. Excellent analysis on all the creatures btw. I certainly don't think the card should be maindeck like Blazing Archon, or even neccesarily sideboarded (I don't think there's room for him).
I can't wait for Garobidou's numbers to comeback. I think we're pretty close to coming up with the definitive version of the list, honestly, in some ways, the list we have now feels MORE powerful and more consistently faster than the list we had under Mystical Tutor!
I'm surprised at how bad Brainstorm seems to be though! Maybe the methodoligy isn't correct. It's important to consider both the three cards the Brainstorm reveals immediately, plus the shuffling them away aspect of it with fetchlands to get to you new cards that might have what you were looking for.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Karhumies
That was a honest mistake on my part due to tiredness when re-reading the card through.
No problem. Excellent analysis on all the creatures btw. I certainly don't think the card should be maindeck like Blazing Archon, or even neccesarily sideboarded (I don't think there's room for him).
I can't wait for Garobidou's numbers to comeback. I think we're pretty close to coming up with the definitive version of the list, honestly, in some ways, the list we have now feels MORE powerful and more consistently faster than the list we had under Mystical Tutor!
I'm surprised at how bad Brainstorm seems to be though! Maybe the methodoligy isn't correct. It's important to consider both the three cards the Brainstorm reveals immediately, plus the shuffling them away aspect of it with fetchlands to get to you new cards that might have what you were looking for.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
You cannot always scratch the significance of a card like brainstorm which is sooo flexable in a deck by crunching statsicial info. I think its important to note the context of that data is to optimize slamming a monster into play by turn three, which in some match ups is not always the right play.
There are pleny of instances where you are brainstorming to hide cards, to set up you next couple of turns, to find proctection for your reanimate, to look for counter magic to stop hate or you opponite from comboing off, to shuffle trash away with a fetch land and also to find a missing combo piece.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Yes, but there's been plenty of times where Brainstorm whiffs for me as well, finding me nothing of value. Brainstorm gives you the false illusion that your opening hand is better than it actually is, leading you to keep hands you wouldn't have otherwise, only to find that the Brainstorm DOESN'T find you that second land that you were looking for, or for that creature or discard outlet that you needed to make your hand perfect.
I really feel like perhaps 3 Brainstorm might be the optimal number. It allows us to play a 11/11/11/11 configuration, while still running 17 lands. And it ensures that we see Brainstorm plenty, but usually not in multiples in our opening 7.
But hell, I am very curious to see the numbers for a 12/12/12 build, with no Brainstorm, to see how this impacts the deck's goldfish numbers.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Karhumies
@ Alsan: Merfolk can block P.Emperion to death (no evasion)...
Merfolk often lose to fast Iona on blue, often to Archon by himself, sometimes even Inkwell can out-race them, and Elesh Norn can wipe their board & keep it clean if put into play early enough. We don't really need the extra P.Emperion in that MU.
As for Team America, I am not familiar with that MU because the deck is not at all present in my metagame. Which can explain my omission of P.Emperion's capabilities when listing the stats. But even if it would be great in that single MU, I still argue that it's a META call for SB instead of a general auto-include for SB.?
Now I strongly disagree. żBlock to death? Merfolk can't kill emperion and can't kill us while is on board so he still loses, it's only a concern of time, wich is the key on that MU, time, because time makes daze and cursecatcher worse, time makes spell pierce useless, time makes Fow the only way they have to stop us, so none quick iona or elesh norn will hit the board, because they will stop us from reanimating they with all strenght they have. If the merfolk player begins, and has a cursecatcher + LOA + Reejerey hand, you'll be dead in turn 4, and no Iona or Elesh norn stops that. If they cut the Entomb (assuming that you have one) you'll never find the solution to that LOA, and you'll eventually die to him... wich emperion doesn't. And who want's to attack with emperion? He boughts time to you to find Sphinx or Leviathan (if you still play him)...
And TA is not a meta deck, I don't know where do you play but TA (or dark 3hold, or anything named X with fow + daze + hymn + kozilek + dark confidant + mental) and Jace control (Landstill UBG) are the most played decks everywhere, so if is not a META call everywhere...
Now that I'm on fire (xD), bonus: clark, Stormtide leviathan is worse than Blazing archon because He Does Not Stop Emrakul.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
I totaly feel your pain there as sometimes brainstorms can trap you in a loose hand.
I guess what I am saying is that it is data is awesome (and it is really well put togeather) but its important to keep it in context.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alsan
Now I strongly disagree. żBlock to death? Merfolk can't kill emperion and can't kill us while is on board so he still loses, it's only a concern of time, wich is the key on that MU, time, because time makes daze and cursecatcher worse, time makes spell pierce useless, time makes Fow the only way they have to stop us, so none quick iona or elesh norn will hit the board, because they will stop us from reanimating they with all strenght they have. If the merfolk player begins, and has a cursecatcher + LOA + Reejerey hand, you'll be dead in turn 4, and no Iona or Elesh norn stops that. If they cut the Entomb (assuming that you have one) you'll never find the solution to that LOA, and you'll eventually die to him... wich emperion doesn't. And who want's to attack with emperion? He boughts time to you to find Sphinx or Leviathan (if you still play him)...
And TA is not a meta deck, I don't know where do you play but TA (or dark 3hold, or anything named X with fow + daze + hymn + kozilek + dark confidant + mental) and Jace control (Landstill UBG) are the most played decks everywhere, so if is not a META call everywhere...
Now that I'm on fire (xD), bonus: clark, Stormtide leviathan is worse than Blazing archon because He Does Not Stop Emrakul.
Everything you said about Platinum Emporium is also true for Blazing Archon is it not. What role does P. Emporium serve that Blazing Archon already doesn't in that matchup? They both do the same thing.
No where did I say that Leviathan is better than Archon. I repeatedly said that it's worse generally and shouldn't be MD, but that it is better against numerous matchups (Merfolk and decks with Emrakul being the major exceptions).
Karhumies initially misread the card initially and categorized it as a bad choice that should NEVER see play. And I was just correcting him. He updated his post to reflect the fact that it's a meta choice.
TA and Landstill are not the most played decks everywhere. Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins are a hell of a lot more popular here.
Re: [Deck] B/U Reanimator
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alsan
żBlock to death? Merfolk can't kill emperion and can't kill us while is on board so he still loses, it's only a concern of time
Against Merfolk, B.Archon has the added benefit of being a 4-turn clock (well, possibly a bit slower if they have Vial + Reejerey triggers) unless they have a heavily Lorded Coralhelm Commander -> stalemate. In that same MU, P.Emperion does not establish a clock: he merely achieves a stalemate because he will not be attacking through the defenses under any circumstances because the opponent is likely to have 8 power on the table.
One of the key things here is how many bounce effects does the particular Merfolk list run (SB), and whether we can stop a bounce effect or not. Supposing that they do run some bounce (Waterfront Bouncer, hardcasted Submerge or E.Truth), and can attempt to bounce P.Emperion, we can stop that with...FoW. Hardcasted. Can be theoretically done, but it is impossible in practice since we have been denied fetches ever since P.Emperion hit the table. B.Archon does not prevent Force support or attempt of counterwar. And Hardcasted FoW (Emperion) loses to just a single Daze, anyway.
S.Leviathan is crap in this particular MU compared to...well...anything, and not really even worth discussing. Which is pretty much exactly the reason why S.Leviathan does not see MD play.
IMO:
FAST (T2) Iona/Jin > B.Archon (fallback option) > P.Emperion (last ditch survival effort; never enough by himself) > Others > S.Leviathan
...with I.Leviathan and Iona being the best clock/support creatures after B.Archon/P.Emperion stabilizes.
Granted, FAST Iona/Jin assumes no god hand from the opponent. But this does not mean it does not happen. Opponent might also misplay in G1 to our advantage due to imperfect information. e.g. T1 us: fetch, go. Merfolk: T1 Cursecatcher -> respond with Entomb-> win the counterwar because they have no open mana for Spell Pierce, T2 Land, Animate Dead/Reanimate FTW (Exhume fails to Cursecatcher: 2cc Sorcery).
And yes, Dismember is an additional problem for Jin, which is why need to have SB creatures which are useful versus Merfolk. Preferably 3x, so we can replace all of them at once. Which is definitely support for SB P.Emperion (and possibly SB 2nd Iona & SB Terastodon -> kill your Islands), and anti-support for SB S.Leviathan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
No problem. Excellent analysis on all the creatures btw. I certainly don't think [S.Leviathan] should be maindeck like Blazing Archon, or even neccesarily sideboarded (I don't think there's room for him).
After some additional thinking, I believe that S.Leviathan is our most consistent 3-turn clock, with the added benefit of slowing down the opponent's racing WITH THE VERY NOTABLE EXCEPTION OF MERFOLK. His largest downside as a defending creature is inferiority to Archon (not stopping everything); his largest downside as an attacking creature before the release of NP was inferiority to Inkwell - mostly due to vulnerability to StoP. While the first problem still exists, the latter problem has been somewhat remedied by Mental Misstep, warranting more playtesting in the current meta IMO. But yes, it's very conditional whether you ever prefer to see S.Leviathan over Sphinx or Inkwell (3 turn clock with some holdback vs 4 turn clock with holdback in the form of lifelink and blocking vs 3 turn clock with Shroud without holdback).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
I'm surprised at how bad Brainstorm seems to be though! Maybe the methodoligy isn't correct. It's important to consider both the three cards the Brainstorm reveals immediately, plus the shuffling them away aspect of it with fetchlands to get to you new cards that might have what you were looking for.
Important notes:
1) Brainstorm is good at digging up a 2nd Reanimation attempt, which does not show up in the figures, as the figures suppose the 1st attempt is successful
2) Brainstorm can protect our first Reanimation attempt from opposing discard effects, which does not show up in the figures, as the figures suppose the opponent does not run any
All-in strategy of redundancy in effects is of course the fastest and most consistent method for a single animation, assuming goldfish state. This is why monoblack animator mulligans less than BU animator. It is hard to measure the value of a utility card which fills many different roles, such as BS. For tutoring up the missing part of the first animation target, BS is not very great. But that's clearly not the only possible use of the card.
