[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

Hi! I've been testing ANT for a while and I have some questions. First of all, I've tried the green splash for abrupt decays and some xantid swarms. Well, I don't like it at all. So I return to my URB list:

1 Ad nauseam
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Brainstorm

1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of agony
3 Cabal therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning wish
3 Infernal tutor

1 Chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 Lion's eye Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic island
2 Underground sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted delta
4 Scalding tarn

Side:

4 Dread of night
3 Dark confidant
2 Chain of vapor
1 Ill-Gotten gains
1 Cabal therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal tutor
1 Empty the warrens
1 Tendrils of agony

In a near future I'll make some changes. In the maindeck -1 Burning wish +1 Infernal tutor. In the side -1 Infernal tutor +1 Grim tutor -1 Empty the warrens +1 I don't know still.

With this list I decide to lost the counterbalance matchup, at least in the paper, I use to play TES, and sometimes I lost because of not having a discard spell ( becaue of silences ), so maybe I can win some match without abrupt decays with all discards effects that ANT offers. You can't make anything against the topdeck of the other player but I assume it. On the other hand, I prefer Dread of night + chain of vapor for fighting hatebears. Sometimes abrupt is not enough.

With the handicap of not having grim tutor by the moment and the fact that I feel comfortable with 7 tutors builds ( I tested prosak list too but most of time I feel like cantriping for nothing ) how you see this list ?

Best regards!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by plimplam

Hi! I've been testing ANT for a while and I have some questions. First of all, I've tried the green splash for abrupt decays and some xantid swarms. Well, I don't like it at all. So I return to my URB list:

1 Ad nauseam
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Brainstorm

1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of agony
3 Cabal therapy
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Ponder
4 Burning wish
3 Infernal tutor

1 Chrome mox
4 Lotus petal
4 Lion's eye Diamond

1 Badlands
1 Volcanic island
2 Underground sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted delta
4 Scalding tarn

Side:

4 Dread of night
3 Dark confidant
2 Chain of vapor
1 Ill-Gotten gains
1 Cabal therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal tutor
1 Empty the warrens
1 Tendrils of agony

In a near future I'll make some changes. In the maindeck -1 Burning wish +1 Infernal tutor. In the side -1 Infernal tutor +1 Grim tutor -1 Empty the warrens +1 I don't know still.

With this list I decide to lost the counterbalance matchup, at least in the paper, I use to play TES, and sometimes I lost because of not having a discard spell ( becaue of silences ), so maybe I can win some match without abrupt decays with all discards effects that ANT offers. You can't make anything against the topdeck of the other player but I assume it. On the other hand, I prefer Dread of night + chain of vapor for fighting hatebears. Sometimes abrupt is not enough.

With the handicap of not having grim tutor by the moment and the fact that I feel comfortable with 7 tutors builds ( I tested prosak list too but most of time I feel like cantriping for nothing ) how you see this list ?

Best regards!

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There is a lot to question imo. How can you be "used to play TES" and dislike Swarms for the respective matchups you board them, cut Infernals to 3 or plan to cut EtW from your wishboard? None of those decisions make sense imo. Can you elaborate this (aside from winterwonderland-Wish-into-Infernal)? Why would you loose because you have a Silence over a discard Spell?

@ plimpalm

Sry i don't like the list and your sb choices...
Burning wish allowed you a lot missplays into etw.
But when you play this way TES is a lot stronger.
1off chrome mox is really random and when you have it on hand
very bad moest of the time.

Ignore and fighting miracle only with discard after sb using is completly wrong in the meta now!
It's not enough! Decay is so good right now;)
4 dreads of night? A little bit to much only your meta is really really mav and DnT heavy..

More cantrips in ANT is the righ choicet! ANT have to be concstant with basics and cantrips
With 3-4 Bw in main it isn't...

When you have not enough tutors play 4 infernal 1 grim but don't play bw its wrong in ant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

There is a lot to question imo. How can you be "used to play TES" and dislike Swarms for the respective matchups you board them, cut Infernals to 3 or plan to cut EtW from your wishboard? None of those decisions make sense imo. Can you elaborate this (aside from winterwonderland-Wish-into-Infernal)? Why would you loose because you have a Silence over a discard Spell?

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Well, the fact is that I don't dislike Swarms, I love them against S&T, merfolks and reanimator. But I don't like the random Tropical, because when you fetch for it, you lose your fetch for red or black, and, even ANT play more lands than TES that could suposse a lost match. I think that is better to play TES than adding green to ANT or TNT. and about wish into infernal i Use to make it lot of times, that's the same play when you wish into Grim Tutor. Against miracles you can loose because mayebe you have the silence, but you can make the combo. Ther's where discard shines against miracles.
About empty the warrens maybe I cut the one of the sideboard when I cut one Burning in the maindeck because of being less explosive.
To the one who think TNT is a bad choice because of burning wish see like the same tournament report where egosum ended second with ANT he lost to TNT in the finals, so It makes the same result (final) one and other version ( the LCL tournament is always 100+ players ).

So guys here is a List that i creat (UBg AnT), maybe for the new rules after M14. The List is not Finish yet. Feel free to posting.
The good thing here is Mox Opal. The List works and i like it xD

4 Mox Opal (Make a very very good ad nauseam, that meens we don't Need a PiF)
4 Sensei's Divining Top (We Need more artifacts and the best Option is the Top, He's very good against discard to, I cut the 4 Preordain for him)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Chrome Mox (Still 1 because it is the badest Card in the deck, but an artifact, Dont know about 2? But i feel 1 are enough)
3 Ad Nauseam (Cut the PiF and the Cabal ritual, With the Opals it's very strong, maybe we can Play only 2 and 1 Rain of filth or a second cabal therapy?)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony (We Need only 1 Kill)
4 Infernal Tutor (4 Tutors are enough)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island (Decay is very important, same with carpet of flowers!)
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 3 Dark Confidant (Why BoB? because we Play more 0 cc spells in this list, and so he's sick)
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas


More Ideas are welcome;)

Edit- maybe we Need a PiF? because when the Tendrils are on the Gy we lose the game anyway^^.

Greets P.dingo

Warning Off-Topic:

What's relevant about M14 rules? I' m quite disconnected.

Thanks in advance,

greetings,

Iñaki.-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by egosum

Warning Off-Topic:

What's relevant about M14 rules? I' m quite disconnected.

Thanks in advance,

greetings,

Iñaki.-

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The two big legacy changes were the "Legend Rule" and Sideboard changes.

1. The legend rule now basically states that when you play a legendary card and there is already an existing copy in play you get to choose what card stays and what card goes to the graveyard. Also you can no longer legend rule an opponents card.

2. Sideboard is now allowed to have up to 15 cards, so after sideboard you could have a 61 card deck with a 14 card sideboard and that won't get you a game lose.

Important is, it's the same with PWs;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by egosum

Warning Off-Topic:

What's relevant about M14 rules? I' m quite disconnected.

Thanks in advance,

greetings,

Iñaki.-

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Just read the next two articles and ure up 2 date

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...feature%2F248f
and
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/248e

Cool, thanks!

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

A good question to ponder is whether a build with 3-4 Mox Opal can make consistent mana to be worth the inclusion.

P.dingo shows an interesting list with SDT to help facilitate Metalcraft, but is this enough?

Don't know if it's good enough, i tested today a Little bit and have to say with Top i can Play around discard and then Play a late Ad nauseam.
The Main Problem is that 3 Ad nauseam are maybe to much..But maybe we Need them for fast kills. I think about IGG against Discard match ups too. Insteat of 1 AD.

The other Thing is do we Need a PiF?
I mean in random situations, they discard the Tendrils...Can wee fix it with IGG?

feel free to Post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

Don't know if it's good enough, i tested today a Little bit and have to say with Top i can Play around discard and then Play a late Ad nauseam.
The Main Problem is that 3 Ad nauseam are maybe to much..But maybe we Need them for fast kills. I think about IGG against Discard match ups too. Insteat of 1 AD.

The other Thing is do we Need a PiF?
I mean in random situations, they discard the Tendrils...Can wee fix it with IGG?

feel free to Post

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PiF enables the best combo move. I don't understand how this card can be mentioned in this context.
IGG feels like: "I take my Infernal and two Rituals and you get... oh.. FoW, Daze and Spell Pierce..."

I imagine with a shift to opal you want a shift to AN as your main engine

May even be beneficial to move to esper and use chant effects for protection/angel's grace to draw your deck run more AN so you just draw it and kill them. Can probably cut preordains for tops.

The deck gets faster as your IMS count goes up.

The angel's grace idea may be bad. but it has been played before.

Will tinker. probably won't be good. need to crunch on numbers for metalcraft.

In the beggining will be a hype with mox opals, then, people will see that metalcraft is impossible in this deck even with 4 tops and people will come back to the list we play now.

Mox Opal probably isn't going to cut it in ANT unless you alter your deck dramatically.
I think you need the artifact lands in order to consistently get Metalcraft pre Ad Nauseam, but the artifact lands suck in every other aspect...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

A good question to ponder is whether a build with 3-4 Mox Opal can make consistent mana to be worth the inclusion.

P.dingo shows an interesting list with SDT to help facilitate Metalcraft, but is this enough?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Koby

A good question to ponder is whether a build with 3-4 Mox Opal can make consistent mana to be worth the inclusion.

P.dingo shows an interesting list with SDT to help facilitate Metalcraft, but is this enough?

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Yes,

I've been working on a list,

I just worked on diff approaches : with Grim Tutor and TES Oriented. I also tested the DD Appeoach (moreless like the ANT approach but putting 2 DD and I.Unbound)

The fact is that A.N is much stronger and the deck needs to behaves at least in speed as TES. Just because of the need of C.Mox.

The fact the C.Mox is a bad card in here is correct but we need it also. MetalCraft and powers A.N. and speed.

I can then say that the 12 Lands configuration can work as a start

4 Seat
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Gemstone Mire
3 C.Moxen

4 Mox opal - Instead 4 Rite Of Flame

In a way 8 of our lands can behave as Or Blue Or Black, only 8 of our lands Can Prduce Both of them.
The difference between TES is taht in TES you produce with the 11 lands Blue and Black. We now play 4 Opal, therefore the difference is:

We play:
(4 U OR 4 B) + 4 U/B + 4 U/B

So I can say that the only diffference is that we play 4 additional landds to supply the Black Mana (we play 8 lands to use the p arity of B OR U)

These are the maths behind
As said I tested the Grim Tutor list and seems ok but now Im testing with Burning Approach. Seems intesresting.

I do not see Senseis in these kind of builds, at least if we base the deck in A.N.

TES Approach:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Seat
4 Vault of Whispers

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mox Opal
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam


I just started to build the deck as ANT, but I don't think this is a good approach, in testing I felt like I needed more business, and the C. Ritual seemed sub optimal with no fetches.
By the other hand B.Wish is superb with all amount of storm we can produce -> PiF is wekaer also.
I've never had problems to cast B.Wish I recgnize I reduced the number of Red Sources But you have again 12 Procucers (Opal Gemstone Petal) + 3 Potential C.Mox

As start I needed to set the Tehrapy instead of SSilence to accomodate better the mana base. it also Works much better with Empty base.

Another point is the lack of consistency of ANT Approach if we discard Tendrils, thing that doesn't happens with TEs Aproach

ANT Approach:

2 U. Sea
4 Seat
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Flooded Strand

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mox Opal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Ad Nauseam
2 C.Ritual
2 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils

Playing Artifacts land is completly wrong...
I don't like the TES list because you are a 5 colour deck and TES Need this Rainbow lands!

The Same with the ANT list. ANT Need fetchies for a good Brainstorm...2 are not enough^^^

AND why 2 Grim Tutor???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

Playing Artifacts land is completly wrong...
I don't like the TES list because you are a 5 colour deck and TES Need this Rainbow lands!

The Same with the ANT list. ANT Need fetchies for a good Brainstorm...2 are not enough^^^

AND why 2 Grim Tutor???

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I do not like the ANT list also, that was an apporach,
however I'm feeling more and more comfortable with that TES versión.

You only need the burning almost always in the turn your going to comboing for these case 4 Gemstone 4 Mox Opal 4 Lotus Petal can be enough, if you compare to TES the B.Wish is the only slot you can understand as a business spell and as its behaviour will be costed during comboing turn.

Regarding the rest of cards blue and Black, I said its a parity concept:

1. You need to asume you will have enough artifacts to use metalcraft of opal -> then you have 4 Gemstone 4 (Vault OR Seat) 4 Mox opal:
2. if you compare this with TES is as exact the same:

TES Manabase:
4 Gemstone
2 COBrass
3 Fetches
2 U.Sea
1 V.Island

Let's call the deck TNT 2.0 - Manabase
4Gemstone
4Mox Opal
4Vault OR 4 Seat.

I switched Silence for C.Therapy.
This is completely posible.
we both even play 3 C.Moxes.


I'm looking now at the Side:
I've been thinking in adding Wheel Of Fate again...to side.

The amount of artifacts we play now is: 23, more than 1/3rd of the deck, we also play Gitaxian, now a Fundamental card in the deck and can act as a 0.5 of Artifact so I can say we play almost half of the deck of mana artifact.

Testing has been done.
Hope the explanation serves.

Silence is one of the best parts of TES.
With cutting Rainbow lands and Rite of flame you lose the fast Thing for TES.
For playing Artifacts Land, you lose the concistant thing of ANT.

that seems very bad.

Mox Opal is not better with the Lands. You Need 3 Artifacts and you haven't them all the time..

Rite of Flame give you +2 or more red mana. Mox Opal not...
Rite of Flame allowed you to Play 4 BW.
BW whitout rite of flame seems bad...that meens you lose again concistants.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

Silence is one of the best parts of TES.
With cutting Rainbow lands and Rite of flame you lose the fast Thing for TES.
For playing Artifacts Land, you lose the concistant thing of ANT.

that seems very bad.

Mox Opal is not better with the Lands. You Need 3 Artifacts and you haven't them all the time..

Rite of Flame give you +2 or more red mana. Mox Opal not...
Rite of Flame allowed you to Play 4 BW.
BW whitout rite of flame seems bad...that meens you lose again concistants.

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cutting RoF does not mean you can make the deck slower, it is backwards.

I put Mox Opal instead of RoF, and in first turns and unless you have 2 in hand 1 Mox opal will be +1 exact as equal as RoF, the difference is that:
- You need metalcraft - assumed.
- M.Opal provides mana of whatever color
- M.Opal costs 0

a Hand like:
Opal, LED, I.Tutor, Seat, D.Ritual, Brainstorm, Braintorm.

will be always quicker than if you substitute Opal by RoF.

Also, Silence is good but Therapy is not bad either...
Simple.

I'm coming back to ANT after a long time and am interested in the current sb perspective. This is what I am running right now and I don't really like it.

Sidebaord:
Abrupt Decay X4
Carpet of Flowers X3
Pyroclasm X3
Chain of Vapor X3
Past in Flames X1
Empty the Warrens X1

I bring the AD in vs CB, I bring the Carpets in vs BUG. I use the Pyroclams vs Thalia/Hate bears. Chain kind of goes in by default in most game 2. 1 PIF for control and the ETW if I am nervous about needing a second win con. My testing has been limited though as I just picked up teh deck again, can I get some general insights on the boards and mu analayis that people are looking at these days?

Thanks!
defector

Carpets side in against BUG are wrong because they have other Options instead of Islands.
Side it in only against RUG and maybe Miracle because they Need blue against you.

I think you have to much pernament hate..you can probably cut the 1-3 clasm and 1 chain of vapor for Cards like Dark confidant and Ignorant Bliss against discard.
You don't Need a Second PiF...

My current SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Bayou
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ignorant Bliss
1 Karakas
1 Massacre
1 Dread of Night
1 Cabal Therapy

About the Mox Opal ideas:
I too think we should play either 4x Seat or 4x Vault. 4x Seat could work in ANT, 4x Vault could work in TES (but then we need to cut a few cantrips, because we lose the ability to consistently cast them). Since the cantrips make TES the dangerous beast it is, that seems bad. I have been tinkering with two approaches now: one ANTish list and one sort of Belcherless Storm.

ANTish

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual /18

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony /21

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Underground Sea
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest /14

Cantripless Storm

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual.
4 Rite of Flame /24

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens /18

4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize /6

4 Vault of Whispers
3 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta /12

This last one with some additional discard on side to battle blue decks.
I have to add that I don't believe in either list so far, but they deserve more testing.

@Asthereal:

I really do think we should need to use both Vault and Seat.
The concept of parity is perfectly suitable with 12 lands (8 of them Artifact which can produce U or B) + Opal which acts as 4 Underground,

The unique problem is that you will need to choose to play Vault OR Seat, which is more difficult as tree decisión.
But assuming you'll have most of the times mana from Mox opal we are building a great deck.

In testing, I was really surprised with the results, it is even quicker than TES and has the same protection and is more reliable to win Post A.N.

I really find the deck quite difficult to play as the Decission tree is bigger, you'll need to evaluate if playing seat OR vault, have in mind if playing down petal to gain mana from opal, etc.

Edit: The base for me is ok as I made it, maybe I could add 1 A-N instead of Empty but not sure.
The side has been changing from the Testing moment, but looks like:
1 Reprocess
1 D.Returns
1 IGG
***No PiF
1 Eye of nowhere
1 Empty
...
@Bahamut, if you are by there could you give us your opinión?

Sorry guys, but do you really think a situational mana-source (pre-ad nauseam) which nets you +1 mana at it's best (not even sure) is worth it to rape your mana base... I can't understand what I am reading here.

@DarkJester
Completly agree, first it was intresting to test a list like this.
But i have to say it's just bad.
Cabal ritual are a lot stronger and preordrain are a lot more important.
Cutting basic lands for artifact lands seems completly wrong.

@Pdingo: Thanks for the advice, ill test some of those changes!

Got 17th in baltimore with this burning wish version.

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames


4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Games
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
3 Dark Confidant
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor

Normally I would have played TES but I was expecting a fair bit of Esper and Shardless BUG so I wanted to play ANT with Bobs. Deck performed very well, my losses probably could have been avoided with better mulligans and tighter play.

Congratulations!
Love to see Wish versions putting up awesome results.


Did you ever use that Shattering Spree? I play EchoingRuin in that slot. Never liked Meltdown. Never try edSpree in ANT.

I'm afraid we don't have the same definition of an awesome result.

I only wanted to post the list because this thread has been dead. Shattering Spree interacts better with counterspells, chalice and trinisphere, not to mention multiple pieces of hate at once.

Sorry but shattering spree is just too optimistic... You are running very few red sources. And investing petals in using spree is not the best idea. The main match ups where you want spree normally run wastelands (i.e. against decks running trinisphere, chalice of the void, being maybe the most relevance), this means that you need to expose one of your 2 non basic red lands in order to play BW, giving the chance to wasteland it. This results in being very difficult to play the replicate of the spree. For thismatter Meltdown seems simply better for ANT build if you want a wish target that can deal with artifacts.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Paying 4 mana to kill a trinisphereis not really ideal, or 4 mana to kill a thorn of amethyst. Against decks with 3balls I will gladly crack an LED to spree more things. Also meltdown doesn't come in foil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz

Also meltdown doesn't come in foil...

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...period.

Iñaki.-

Just pointing out that Chain of vapor + 0cc permanents was always one of my favorite storm engines. That might be relevant with this most recent improvement to Mox opal.

Fuck Chain of Vapor in a Mox Opal list.

Repeal + Mox Opal is a free cantrip. Most lists with artifact Lands and Opal have 3+ mana turn 2 so you can eot bounce crap like hatebears, counterbalance and go off. Opal lists should play Repeal and Probe for insane PIF's

Fuck Mox opal?l lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

Fuck Mox opal?l lol

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Or this way round ^^

Wasn't able to break Opal even with Grim Monolith. That crap all turns Storm into Belcher which isn't desireable