please run at least 1 council's judgement and let us know what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
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please run at least 1 council's judgement and let us know what you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Running this at SCG Providence as well. Wish me better luck than Rob :smile:
I'm cooling my boner for Vendilion Clique and trying out the 3 Snap/4 Ponder build after wanting more Ponders every time I cast one at the local event this week.
Got 4th at the Monthly 1k with with this list:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Snare
1 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Supreme Verdict
Matchups:
2-0 Non-LED Dredge
2-0 Forgemaster MUD
1-1-1 (ID) Eli Kassis with Elves (we both would rather try our luck against other players/decks but we played it out for fun and he did win 2-1)
0-2 Zombardment with Vengevine
2-0 Maverick
I was the lowest seeded 10 pointer, but still 8th going into the finals. Also, my draw and then loss made it so every single 6 and 9 pointer had to play instead of just the top 8 all drawing in so that made me happy.
2-0 UWr Miracles (his list was really funky)
1-2 Zombardment (same guy)
I got 4th for 150$ in credit, same as last month.
Council's Judgment:
I only cast the card once and it killed a chalice in a game 1, so that was pretty good. My opponent actually didn't really understand the card and originally voted for his Monolith. But I reread the card for him and then he decided he wanted to vote for Chalice too. I would not have done this at a more serious tournament, and would have gladly accepted the 2 for 1.
Staticaster:
Forgot how awesome this card is. Unfortunately I never saw it and the one time I did draw it (against elves) I forgot I was running it and never even bothered fetching a Volc to cast it with if I ended up seeing it. However, in if I had seen it at any point in the Zombardment matchups I probably would have won.
Anyone running sulfer elemental, or considering running it should be running staticaster I think. It is slight worse against D&T, but while still being the nuts against them, is also the nuts against Mav, elves, goblins, and anything with young pyromancer or lingering souls.
Spell Snare:
Card was perfect for what I wanted. I was previously not a fan of snare, but that has changed.
Zombardment:
My only losses were to this deck. It is probably a pretty bad matchup, but I might have played wrong too. In 2 different games, I had an entreat on top of my library AND ways to shuffle, but I was very determine to cast entreat. However, even an entreat for 5 did not win me either game since he was at over 20 life and had a recurring army with haste that could kill me if I had no blockers. I probably should have played that differently, but also, I only saw 1 GY hate card in the 3 post-board games we played and it did too little too late and I never saw staticaster, so that did not help either.
SB against Miracles mirror:
In the past in the mirror I actually bring in the 3rd entreat, but I tried Ein's plan of taking out all entreats and it worked. Granted, my opponents list was really funky and he seemed fairly inexperienced with the deck, but still, I didn't feel like I needed entreats and ALWAYS having more countermagic was a huge benfit. Both games were ultimately won because I patiently waited to cast my top and CB till turn 3/4 with protection. And then Clique, followed by Jace gave me enough advantage to win. Also, he had no snaps. I had 2. Game 2 he cast 1 REB thoughout the game, I cast 5. Seems pretty good.
Overall, I am still happy with this list. I've tied Joes legend build, and Philips 4 ponder build, but I really like having the best of both decks with 2 snaps, 2 cliques, 2 ponders. I will keep refining my list, and test Judgment some more, and am looking forward to playing miracles at SCG Syracuse, some local 40 duals events, and GP jersey later this summer.
Good luck today at scg! It's been a while since miracles has been made top 16.
Rob (Hammafistroob) is 5-1 Going into the 7th round he lost to shardless bug in round 2. Updates to follow.
I got a bullshit gameloss in the 7th round, not really anyone's fault. I had bought new KMC's before the tournament, and when my match got deck checked in r7 apparently about 20 of my sleeves were discolored on the very bottom, a little whiteish coloring on the black sleeves. Since my deck was organized by spells/lands, it just so happened that all of my lands (-2) were in the disclolored sleeves. So like I said it's not really anyone's fault, and the judges had to at least hand me a gameloss for that. Although Bertoncini brings up a good point to me later on that with marked sleeves you should either get a warning or a DQ if they do think you were cheating.
So I then proceeded to lose un-sided game2 against burn, I got CBtop set up but couldn't find a two drop, a swords, or a Terminus in the top 10 cards. Died to a Flame Rift, Goblin Guide, and Lavamancer. I drew into top 32 out of 304 players in the last round so I finished 6-2-1. Will post a bit more later I'm downing some Bruschi for now.
Years ago a friend told me to always shuffle your sleeves (and do something to randomize the deck) before sleeving, so if there was any production errors, there should be no pattern when you get deck checked. I have bought sleeves with production errors a few to many times over the years to ever stop doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Congrats on your finish man. I went to a local tournament today. It was a qualifier to the National Legacy here in Brazil. Went 3-1-1 on the swiss and lost in the semifinals for storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Burn 2-0
Monored Stompy 2-0
UB Tezzerator 2-0
Burn 0-2
Storm ANT Intentional Draw
When i look to the standings, beeing 3-0 I thought i could ID and Id into the top 8, but the burn player wanted to play. Anyway, this burn player went 5-0 and lost in the quarter finals for storm.
Top8
Got 5th in the swiss and went:
UB Tezzerator (another guy) 2-1
ANT - 1-2
G3 against the ANT i got a mulligan to 6: sensei, 4 lands e spell pierce. Put sensei into play, look the top 3 and saw fusterstorm on top. The game went long and in the 4th turn he started to comboing. A bunch of rituals later he did tendrills to 16 damage, at this time he had 2 cards in hand and i thought he should have past in flames and another blank card so i didn“t use fluster. Instead of a blank card he did have another tendrills and a past in flames. He played his other tendrills i casted fluster buying with sensei and he payed for 3 copies of my spell. He actually uses a hybrid ANT build with 3 burning wishes and 4 tutors and confessed to me he forgot his another tendrills in the main deck, because in g2 he killed me fetching tendrill with BW. God damn lucky bastard!
Anyway, it was good to be in the top 4 with another member of my team who got into top 2.
Another mediocre finish at an SCG event (66th). I feel like this one was more on me than Somerset: punted my way into the draw bracket vs RUG, got paired down to get crushed by 12Post (worst plays of the day were in this match), lost a super tight match vs RUG, likely misplayed my way to another draw vs UWR. Beat Tin Fins, Manaless Dredge, Team America, Bant Aggro and Lands.
Played 2 Council's Judgment (1 main, 1 side) and they were very good. Some of the things I blew up included Tarmogoyf, EE, Delver, multiple True-Names, Mongoose. Most of the time it was unconditional removal but the flexibility felt great. I cut Venser (main) and Wear/Tear (side), and moved the red to the SB so I could fetch out a more stable UW manabase in G1.
Interesting situation in G3 vs RUG. He has a flipped Delver and has beat me down to 6 life. He had hardcast Force on my Clique on his prior turn. My hand is Jace, Clique, Entreat, Council's Judgement and Rest in Peace. My lands are Tundra, Volcanic, Plains, Island. I stuck Jace and bounced his Delver. He has 4 cards in hand now. He untaps, Ponders, plays a land, Bolts my Jace, casts a 6/7 Goyf, 2 cards in Hand (Delver + 1), Volcanic Island up. I draw another Clique for turn - what's the play?
How many lands do you have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Since you had played Jace, you have at least 4 lands. I think the play is rest in peace after he plays goyf. In any situation, being at 6 life vs bolt.deck is precarious.
I had planned on playing 1 main and 1 side but I didn't want to pay the 20 bucks for them, ended up being a good call since I spent 20 on just sleeves.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
The judge I spoke with said the same thing to me, it makes sense really. Just sucks that my first gameloss ever cost me top8 contention, my friend on RUG got 9th with a 7-1-1 :(.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
¤This is the list I chose to register¤
//LANDS-22
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
//CREATURES-2
2 Snapcaster Mage
//PERMANENTS-10
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//SPELLS-26
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
//SIDEBOARD-15
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Rest in Peace
1 Graffdigger's Cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Disenchant
It felt really solid, I actually never cast a single REB all day though so I'm not sure on that slot. It should probably be a Council's Judgement. I won almost every game with Jace ultimate, only two with Entreat and two with Vendilion + Cannonist beatdown.
R1 Rbw Reanimator 2:0
R2 BUG 0:2
R3 Patriot 2:0
R4 Team America 2:0
R5 Jund 2:1
R6 Team America 2:1
R7 Burn 0:2(gameloss)
R8 ANT 2:1
R9 Deathblade ID
I punted game 1 of round 2 really hard. His list was like a hybrid of Team America and Shardless. He played lots of Tar Pits, Bobs, V.Clique, Liliana, and Jace, I was really hopeless with his draw in the second game. Actually almost all of my losses were due to multiple Confidant draws from my opponents. It was still a good day in my book, lots of good games. Hats off to Ross Meriam for becoming only the second person to win two Opens in one weekend, he's like the final boss on legendary.
He lost in the finals though :pQuote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
No way really? I was watching on my phone but I fell asleep in the beginning of game 2, I can't believe he lost that matchup :(
Having Progenitus stuck in your hand after a mulligan kinda does that. I think that's the only SB card he saw the whole match. It was a really odd match - Ross' maindeck was about as horrible as could be for the D&T matchup in that it had no artifact removal and only a single basic maindeck, and only 3 Nat Orders. Meanwhile Shiels has 2 Mindcensors which Ross has zero outs to, a Spirit and a couple Crusaders. Not a very hateful sideboard though, while Ross could bring in all the classics - Decay, Pridemage, 4th NO, everyone's favourite Hydra (R.I.P. Progenitus 2009-2014), which basically make Shiels' life hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
I really would've expected it to go Shiels, Ross, Ross instead of Ross, Shiels, Shiels.
So, has anybody tried Council's Judgment and got to cast it? What are first impressions? Is it a 1 of Sideboard card, or a 1-main, 1-side type thing?
43
[deck]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
3 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Rest in Peace
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Energy Field
1 Volcanic Island
1 Pithing Needle
1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Luminarch Ascension
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Energy Field
[/deck]
So this is my version of "Miracles". It runs a heavy E-tutor toolbox, which I need help with.... The entire deck really. Im only short the Tundras and I own it IRL :)
My "Meta"
2 Sneak and Show
2 RUG Delver
3 BUG Delver
1 Goblins
1 Elves
1 Mono Blue Delver
2 ANT
1 Jund
1 Painter
1 Pox
Not everyone, but those are usually the top tables. Any suggestions, advice, or ??
Kill Conditions:
Jace.
Entreat for X
Helm+Rip
I tried out Council's Judgment tonight, one main and one sideboard. I only played four rounds, but I have to say that it seemed pretty good. Over the tournament, I hit a Pithing Needle, a Batterskull, two Lilianas, and a Deathrite Shaman. I'll do more testing on the exact configuration I want, but it is definitely worth looking into more.
I had Tundra, Volcanic, Plains, Island. I went for Rest in Peace and he had Stifle. Afterwards we talked about all the cards I could consider playing around with my hand:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
Clique gets hit by REB and Bolt
Judgement gets hit by Spell Pierce (and Envelop / Flusterstorm)
Rest in Peace gets hit by Stifle and Spell Snare
Hi, i have decided to build a miracle control deck.
I haven't played in a while (approximately 4 years) and would appreciate suggestions on my the deck. I am unsure of what the local meta game looks like, i expect lots of death and taxes.
Here is what i currently aim for:
Mana: 23
4 Polluted delta
4 Flooded strand
2 Tundra
3 Plains
10 Island
(I wanted the mana to be more or less immune to disruption)
Creatures: 4
2 Snapcaster mage (I like that it gives me more late game counterspells...and overall just value)
2 Vendilion clique
Spells: 21
4 force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
4 terminus
2 counterspell
2 entreat the angels
1 Spellsnare
Other: 12
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the mindsculptor
2 Engineered explosives (Nimble mongoose, Ęther vial)
I have so far avoided a splash.
I am curious about the cliques, on one hand they seem great for killing planeswalkers and either hand disruption or filtering. On the other hand they have only 1 toughness and are thus unlikely to live very long. Also those two slots could easily be used for something else.
I am going to be blunt on this issue: i am willing to purchase 3 Jace right now. No more.
EE without the ability to drop it for three seems mediocre
Better question is what did you take out for the Council's card slot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I am curious...which 3 mana cards do you think i should be worried about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
True-name nemesis, vendilion clique comes to mind.
Other than that there's blood moon/moon man...but those cards pretty much gives me the 3rd colour
EE seems a little worse if it can't hit 3. You might also want a Karakas if you do decide to go with the Cliques which are great vs. control or combo. They're ok at stealing equipment from DnT, but somewhat mediocre against fair decks in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
If you're interested in a list without cliques you should check out Einherjer's build of miracles. You could probably cut the splash out and end up with something similar.
I cut Celestial Purge and Pithing Needle from the SB and moved the fourth FoW to the board. Alternatively, I was considering cutting the two REBs from the main for a second Ponder and a Council's Judgement (again cutting Purge and Needle from the SB). For that tournament at least, I'm still glad that I went with the cheater build. It was still good, regardless of Council's Judgment.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Liliana and Sword of Fire and Ice are also prime suspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
This. TNN, Liliana, SoFaI (or any Sword for that matter), Metalworkers, KOTR, Aven Mindcensor, all sorts of random stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by princeofperasia
I mean EE for 0-2 is still solid, but I think having access to a third color to be able to EE for 3 is usually worth it.
So I am considering taking this deck to a couple scgs in july. I am running the 4 ponder and zero vendilion clique list that i saw on eternal central. However, not having a ton of experience with the deck, and not having any weekly legacy tournaments, i want to know how i can get better with this deck in a month. I have a brother i can play against, who is a decent player. Thanks.
I'd recommend playing something else to be honest. Miracles is a difficult deck to play, and even harder to play well. Practice is definitely important with the deck. Its not like picking up deathblade or Team America where if you have cast brainstorms or FoW before, you will probably do fine. Also, you will probably draw a lot. New players of the deck that don't test it enough always do.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
@Zeus:
EE is fine with 2 colors. 3 Jace is perfect, you don't need more. My biggest issue with your list is your lack of fetchlands. If you are going to run less duals you can run more fetches. I'd add 2 blue fetches and 2 white fetches, cutting basics. Having so many basics will actually make your manabase more prone to disruption. Rishadan port is a thing and you don't need a 2nd plains till turn 4+ so drawing 2 plains in your opening hand is really bad usually.
Hello,
yes miracles is a diffcult deck but it becomes easier to play if you have deep format knowlegde and control deck and Cb lock expirienece so unless he is completly new to this I would not discourage him so hard because
with enough effort he can do well with the deck. The question is if he want to take the time he needs.
I think if you want to play miralces at tournement Level in the given time you have to do a lot of testing against other decks. A good start would be 10 hours per day agianst different decks to beat and tier 2 decks. Yes this sounds huge
but then you should give you enough insight to get a good starting position for the tournements.
It is imporant to know that this will you no transform into a pro Miracle player but will help to do well at the tournements because of the knowlegde advance you made during the testing.
As partner I would sugest players who know their deck well allready and did good on tournements with it, if you don“t have access to them then your brother would be an alternative I think.
Also you can watch streams to see how other people play miracles and learn from their failures and vitories.
Last but not least find out if the playstyle suits you because if not any time spent in the training with the deck wil only lead to supotimal results.
Best Regards Teveshszat
Wait..you think having 8 fetch lands...is few? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
My usual format is vintage, where i consider it a luxury to be able to fit in 6 fetchlands (Although vintage decks obviously isn't playing 4 brainstorm and 4 tops - Thus lessening the importance of shuffling effects.).
Rishadan port and wasteland are definitely something i am worried about, but with loads of basics wasteland should be a minor problem (Although my 2 tundra's are probably gonna be glorified lotus petals against a deck with wastelands), while port is much harder to guard against.
The only colour i would be able to splash currently, would be black. But i see very little gain in doing so. (I only own 1 scalding tarn, and would prefer not to add another expense to the deck)
I am still looking for alternatives to vendilion clique. I am worried about its value against non-control, non-combo decks.
So I played in a local legacy event last night, probably 15 people.
went 1-1-2
Played a 1-of Council's Judgment in the main, cutting a spell pierce for it.
My list is as follows:
2 tundra
1 volcanic
4 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 tarn
4 mesa
2 strand
2 mystic gate
22 lands
2 ponder
2 counterspell
2 entreat
4 terminus
1 spell snare
4 fow
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
4 top
3 jace
1 Council's Judgment
4 stp
34 spells
3 Snapcaster
1 Clique
4 creatures
SB:
1 REB
2 pyroblast
1 e tutor
1 bloodmoon
1 clique
2 RIP
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 pithing needle
1 EE
1 flusterstorm
1 wear//tear
1 supreme verdict
1 entreat
Round 1 vs Jund
Tough match up, he is a very good jund player.
Game 1 I get him through top lock plus jace. Game 2 I dont see much removal, and never get a top lock going
Game 3 board is 3 angels for me and pithing needle naming DRS. He has 2 wolf tokens from a garruk, and 2 DRS. draw
0-0-1
round 2 vs legacy blue angles
Game 1, he lands a turn 3 jace off DRS, I have no response. Dont see any counters and he takes care of the council's judgment I draw.
game 2, I think I'm agains deathblade so I sb blood moon, e-tutor, etc. Taking out entreats to go the long game. He restos in bouncing his stonforge in response to removal, I dont see any more removal so clique plus equipment get me.
0-1-1
Round 3 vs WUR Delver
Game 1 I think he has a greedy keep of 1 land and no clock so I quickly take over. Entreat wins it.
Game 2 he has an early clock and meddling mages out my swords. He has all the answers to the terminus.
Game 3 I top lock him, but have to blow the counterbalance with an EE at 2 b/c of his 2 meddling mages locking me out of terminus and swords. a huge entreat wins it as his hand is double REB.
1-1-1
Round 4 vs POX:
Really really grindy match-up.
Game 1: I keep a good hand of top but only a volcanic and mountain. He easily keeps me only just the mountain for a good 6 turns as im drawing dead even with top in play. He has a board of lilliana plus cursed scroll and gets it.
Game 2: See the Luminarch Ascension around turn 5 or so. He has no way to deal with it and no factories in play. He concedes as it goes active.
Game 3: I have a board of jace plus top counterbalance, he has 2 factories in play trying to race me. I draw swords and have snap in hand for the factories. Jace is at 11 at turn 5 and we draw.
1-1-2
So I think the hardest thing with this deck so far is sideboarding. I have a really tough time figuring out what to take out more so than what to put in. In retrospect I should have left the entreats in for pox, but it was my first time playing that match-up. I also know I need to speed up my playing a bit, but its hard to play quickly particularly against decks I have never played against before. Agains something like WUR Delver, which Ive played a lot against, time is not an issue.
I really loved the council's Judgment. During the day it took out 2 lilliana's and 1 jace. Was particularly awesome with snapcaster as playing it on turn 4 with another land in my hand, allowing them to 2 for 1 themselves with a fow, then snapping it back a turn later was really great. I'm def going to take out the 1 main deck clique, as it was taken out post board in almost every match I played. Will probably replace it with a 3rd ponder, or maybe another counterspell.
Also I know people have been leaning towards the spell snare, but I think I might go back to the pierce as it would be nice to have in counter wars.
Also I learned that counterbalance does not counter every copy of flusterstorm! That was a new one!
You want to maximize your fetchlands, which in most lists is unfortunately only 10. You can run more though if you are just UW. You don't actually need scalding tarns to splash red btw. I've tried the basic mountian, but find just 2 volcs better. I don't even own tarns. I don't think the black splash is really worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
Vendilion clique is very useful against any deck with planewalkers, vial decks, stoneforge mystic and obvious combo/control. The only decks I think it is bad against is stuff like RUG, UR, dredge or burn. And clique is best card in the deck against combo and control. Having clock AND disruption that you don't have to tap out for is huge! He's also really good with Karakas. With 2 cliques MD, I use the 1of karakas at least once every round at least, and in some rounds it is essential in my victory. I win probably 30-40% of my games with clique beats for reference.
Without RED, venser or cliques a resolved planeswalker is basically game over. You might want to consider adding 1-2 council's judgment in there somewhere.
Also, the 4 Ponder set up might also be worth considering. You can go down to 21 lands pretty easy since you don't have a splash or karakas anyways. I also highly recommend the 4 ponder version of anyone running a "budgeted" version, even if its just the lack of a couple volcs or fetches, the more consistent you make your deck the better you can compensate for having less than optimal numbers of the cards you "should" have.
Took Ernheirjers list to 3-1 my local.
Match 1 was 0-2 loss to Punishing Jund. I had a tough time dealing with the discard, the abrupt decays and the robust mid game. Any tips on this match up is huge.
Match 2 was 2-0 over Burg. Terminus did lots of work both games.
Match 3 was 2-0 vs Hypergenesis. The counter suite shut down him down.
Match 4 was 2-1 vs shardless.
Any tips for the June match up?
Counterbalance as well as Chalice of the Void only triggers on cast, so that means that either one will only counter the original spell and will never counter any of the copies (off the top of my head this includes Flusterstorm, Tendrils of Agony, Brain Freeze, and Shattering Spree).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
Something else you might not know is that you can counter a Krosan Grip or any split second spell with Counterbalance if the top card of your library is already the correct cmc. You can trigger the Balance, you just can't activate Top or Brainstorm to set it up.
Entreat is the biggest thing. If you never see an Entreat, it can be a very difficult matchup but finding an Entreat almost makes it trivial. I would rarely if ever Brainstorm and shuffle away an Entreat from hand in the early game and would instead rely on finding another Brainstorm effect to set it up later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
Yeah, Entreat is huge. I play the full 3 entreat post board, side out fow, in lots of removal too. If you can survive till their hand is empty and have top balance in play, the game is yours to lose at that point. Before that, it is kinda rough, particularly with an experienced Jund player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
I was wondering if anyone had an updated list to share with the printing of Council's Judgement. I like the 4 ponder list with 4 counterbalances. I am looking at the following list and playing the deck to set the top + balance look asap.
Main Deck:
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Supreme Verdict or vendelion clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
3 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
Side Board:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Disenchant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Engineered Explosives or supreme verdict
Im experimenting with a build including 2 Council's Judgment main (along with snapcaster mages and cliques). I cut all of the Entreat to make room. I think with judgment we can go 1for1 with most tier1 decks. Entreat is only very good versus bad decks anyway.
Judging the Judgment.
Ok, it's been a while since I promised you to give all of you my my opinion on Council's Judgement. Here we go, then.
Versatility is its strength!
The strength of Councils Judgement does not lie in what it does - it lies in what it can do, across a variety of MUs, situations and so on. There are cards to our disposal that to their job in a superior way. But we didn't have access to a card that can get rid of literally every nonland permanent, circumventing any kind of protection or tricks. That's an upgrade for sure. Whenever I talked about Miracles vs Esper I came back and tell everybody how superior Snapcaster Mage was in Esperstoneblade, being a sure 4of due to the plethory of versatile cards he could flashback. I soon became a disciple of Snapcaster in Miracles too, but ever since this card has entered the light of day it seems to be rather obvious that Snapcaster is a constant part of Miracles, giving it as much versatility as it had in good old Esper.
But Judgements versatility has another aspect to it that is pretty essential. Due to its potential to deal with literally everything you have to put the first copy of this card in your mainboard, not in your sideboard. I've been playing Counterspell in my SB ever since GP Paris and I am still under the assumption that this is the correct way to go - but before I put the 3rd Counterspell in the SB, I've had two of them in the mainboard, reaching the cards threshold of mainboarded copies. Same thing goes for Councils Judgement - leading to the next point:
How many Judgements can one pass?
It's a tricky question, to be honest - and it does depend on the build. Being harder to cast then most spells in our deck puts up limitations to this card, that's for sure. It should be pretty obvious that 4 is too much, whereas three seems pretty painful at best. I think the maximum amount of Judgements you should be having in your deck distributes as follows:
4 Ponder - build: 1-2 Judgements in your 75, at least 1 mainboard.
Other builds: 1-3 Judgements in your 75, at least 1 mainboard.
Cantrip-heavy builds have traditionally been shaving on individual copies of a card to make up for the increased consistency - so I am under the assumption that 2 is the perfect threshold for this card, whereas other variants can go up to three, but 2 should be the thresholded mark for mainboardable Judgements across the whole field.
Whats the pawn sacrifice?
One may not simply add cards to the deck without cutting some of them, as 61 cards is no option. (has never been) So what can different lists cut in order to support this spell? Should any of this lists be built in a bad way you can still cut inferior cards, should you still play them - I am referring to cards like RIP/E-Tutor/D-Sphere or whatever. Ya know, bad cards.
But what can you cut when you play a good implementation of Miracles? Two kinds of things: a) versatile ones and b) specific ones. Why is that? Well, if your list has cards that are designed to deal with a plethora of different threats it might be a good idea to switch to a card that actually deals with most of them in a superior way. I am talking about cutting cards like:
Spell Pierce
Vendilion Clique
Counterspell
Those cards aren't exactly the same, but share big parts of their area of application. They are all meant to deal with a lot of different things. While Spell Pierce excels in the early game it's Counterspells time to shine later while clique stays a powerful threat in many matchups (but not enough of them - that's why I still don't mainbeck Clique) - Judgement can easily deal with most of those permanents, with the upside of being a better draw once those permanents have entered the battlefield already.
You could also cards that are in your mainboard to deal with very specific threats. I am talking about those cards, among others:
Disenchant and Wear//Tear
Supreme Verdict
Engineered Explosives (MB)
Pithing Needle
...
Those cards had their right to be in the mainboard for some lists, in some metagames - but I think they have ceased to do so - as Councils Judgement does this job in a clearly superior way. Pretty easy cut, if you should be playing those cards.
Repositioning in a dance called metagame.
So what do I think about the impact that Judgement will have on the current metagame and our position within it? Well - simply put - this card is a clear buff for Miracles, even though other archetypes can profit from it aswell. Versatile cards that impact already resolved threats has always been a problem of UWR - it now seems to be solved, in one way or another. It will make MUs that have been close, traditionally, better. I am mostly thinking of the BG/x archetype. It's been a race to Entreat the Angels for 9 out of 10 games. With Judgement I see these MUs improving by a lot, due to the ability to delay the kind of inevtiable Liliana long enough to massacre them with an army of flashy angels.
It'll also improve the MUs against Random, admittingly though Miracles has been having the best MU against Random from most of the tier1-decks, regardlessly.
Even though it doesn't help with traditionally tough MUs like SnT and DnT it offers interesting angles of attack to this very two MUs, namely being able to get rid of Vial+SoFaI mainboard (once you've survived the mana-screw) and nuking Sneak Attack itself, if they tap out to cast it. Not really making it better - but interesting angles, nontheless.
I think this card will make Ponder an even better card, supplementing my claim that 2 Ponder is the bare minimum, with 4 being my personal (!) optimum. Being able to dig for a card that deals with everything is about as good as it can get.
Judgements affects on my list.
Based on my latest list I will go ahead and cut my (altered) Spell Pierces. (You know how much it hurts to cut recently acquired altered cards?) Both of them, despite the fact that I will be only adding a single Councils Judgement to the mainboard. As the second card that will be cut I have decided to cut the recently added Pithing Needle in favor of the Councils Judgement. I don't think that I have to explain why I cut those two cards - just see what I wrote above about the possible cuts.
But what do I do with the one last slot in the mainboard that once was property of Spell Pierce? Playing a miser Spell Pierce doesn't sound too good - so it'll be something different. It won't be a 2nd/3rd Councils Judgement due to the color requirements and the low count of disruptive blue cards for the Combo/Control-MUs. So it has to be something blue, more or less disrupting/countering. I have been thinking about the following cards:
3rd Counterspell (moving the sideboarded one to the mainboard)
Spell Snare
Vendilion Clique
Counterbalance
Red Elemental Blast
Admittingly, I am not completly sure that this last slot is as correct as the rest of my list is, at least to me. I stand behind pretty much every single slot - with the exception of this very 60th mainboarded card. I ultimately decided in favor of Counterbalance due to the good position in the current metagame that this card has right now. Counterbalance is very good against a plethora of strategies right now, ranging from Elves over Delver to Storm and even Sneak and Show - due to this list having 3 cc3 and 3 cc4, making it a possibility to lock them out in the preboarded games.
As said, I am not too sure on this one and I would be happy to receive some opinions on this one, even though I've asked many people I trust in already. But there is no such thing as too many opinions.
Other than that, here it is - my Judgemental Miracles-list.
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgement
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Council's Judgement
Greetings
Solid thought process, Einherjer. The only thing I'd say is that I'm not sure that the EE in your SB are better than Supreme Verdicts. It's likely that your more Snapcaster-heavy build is better equipped than mine at dealing with creatures on a one by one sort of basis and so a general sweeper might not be as welcome. Still, I feel that EE loses a lot of value with the addition of Council's Judgment. Although EE has the upside of occasionally hitting multiple permanents, both Council's Judgment and EE are usually only hitting a single problem on the board except that Council's Judgment does it more efficiently. Supreme Verdict seems to fill in the gap against creature decks by unconditionally wiping the board of creatures regardless of countermagic.
Reid playing Miracles now. Was cheering for him but felt bad for Strong. Did a lot to lose that game.