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Woah, hold up! Spoilers. I have not!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'm in the process of a complete overhaul on the opening post. Meaning rewriting the entire thing, when it's done I'll let everyone know. I'm juggling a few things at the moment, but expect it in the next few weeks.
My current deck list is in the opening post though!
M'kay. Just noticed an edit today
Hi guys, I just had an idea that I wanted to ask about. I mentioned before being a bit worried over other fast combo decks, and theres a spot for EtW coming out of the main that tends to get filled by Pyroblast or Tropical Island. So, the idea I had: what if we had a 2nd Ad Nauseam in the side to bring in to help race other combo decks. The average CMC of the deck doesn't go up much, since you swap EtW for AdN, being able to combo faster is way better than something conditional like Pyroblast since being faster helps in all combo matchups. Historically the deck did run AdN in duplicate before, so its not unheard of necessarily. 2nd Ad Nauseam might have applications in other matchups too, but it just kinda woke up today with this idea wanted to see if anyone else had thought about it.
Bryant,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Do you find having Cabal Rituals / Duress in over silence optimal? And how often are you siding out the Cabal Rits?
I play 2 Ad Nauseam in my Ant deck and i would also run 2 in tes instead of empty maybe.
(Currently Empty the Warrens isn't that good in general because of all the cheap answers to goblins in each decks sideboard)
Royce and Bryant: During your path to victory last week,how many rounds have you won with goblins?
How many ad nauseam into grapeshot did you cast?
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
@Lemnear, Final Fortune and to whom may interest mainly:
I finally played that tournament, it was around 300 people, it was time ago and I was testing a litle with a TES list
I played the folllowing list:
// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [THS] Thoughtseize
2 [M14] Duress
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 2 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
The idea mainly HowToSide was:
- vs Sneak:
-1EtW, -4C.Therapy,+1Ponder = +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize, +2Xantid, +2Pyro- vs Miracles
-1 C.Mox,-2 Ponder,-1EtW, -2C.Therapy = +2Pyro, +2A.Decay, +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize- vs T.A
-1Ponder+1T.Seize
I went with a friend playing also Storm but a different archetypes.
We both reached the 4-0 and 4-1 respectively, beating merfolk with Chalice (in here discard was key), slivers, sneak, BUG, etc, all suff with FoW,
We reached both the same D&T player wich crushed us, and last round we faced each other me and my friend - we pacted so we needed to win next 2 rounds, my next 2 rounds were vs miracles - happy - which I'll briefly resume - they were both a feature match ups but still waiting to watch them...
vs D&T
it was really a bad luck, on first game I have discard and a 3rd turn win, but the lonely Spirit of the Labyrinth ruined my plan of diminishing as last chance... and either didnt draw other wincon.
The second game he sided 2 E.Tutor plus ratched bomb ,and even I discarded 1 Elightned T. from hand and put 12 gobs on 1st turn he is able to draw the E.Tutor on the f*** next turn.
vs the decks I want to talk now about is miracles:
vs Miracles:
the first and 2nd games were totallly bad plays from opponent part... people still don't know how to play vs TES... and I think will never learn... but I don't want to win games vs them because of this cause.
- the first game we reached a point in which he had Jace, with senseis activates ability and Opponent Does not leave FoW on top. Yeah.
I cast Therapy, chain of spells win.
- the second game and starting him I think I just sided as exposed before , but didnt win.
- the third game was strange as I just felt that full discard instead of A.Decay was going to be better so I sided just +1 EtW, +1 T.Seize from List
I think I discarded FoW and Sensei leaving c.b. and Verdict and put 12 gobs on 2nd turn, he had also blue lands only. I think. won.
I need to elaborate a strong strategy vs miracles, do not mind want to change in side, because this is what I felt on 2nd match up vs miracles...
I'm not sure about the good or bad decisión, but I remember he started and I had a ponder, fetch, duress, D.R. gemstone, B.W., B.S. or like and I opted to play Fetch volcanic to pretend to be RUG - I remembered you in here Lem! he fetched, played island -> c.b., obviously I didnt know he played c.b. maybe if I play duress he just brainstorm, but who knows. I blame myself for not playing duress - but he didn't look a Miracles Player Face.
second I oppted to side in as exposed before - original strategy, but it was simple c.b. landed before comboing and A.D. didn't appear.
I just want to say that the list is damned strong, as it's never been before IMHO - 3 discard and among them 4 therapys is perfect - Go Tri forcé!. just 2 or 1 T.Seize, I opted to play 1 Main and really didn't go bad. but as you all boys say, as quick is what mainly defines the match up vs D&T, my plan was -2 Duress +1T.Seize+1grapeshot. in one game just was bad luck , the other maybe mulligan anyways the problema in one match up was the need of the second threat apart to B.W.-> Massacre which provoked me a secure feeling on each match up. massacre will stay in. so quick was the way and in other Match ups it's the same as duress...,
vs Sneak:
the firt game discard was key to reach agood point in the game and win
the second game Xantid was key.
I didn't use Bribery at all. I think not having CoV opens you to looses maybe vs Leyline bu having also B.W. -> Bribery is also another path to the victory as a card vs Reanimate, S&T, OmniShow, MUD, so I' not sure if to take it out.
So conclusions:
talking with my friend, he played 3 A.Decay finally, he said they're clunky - he played also vs some variety of c.b. but it seems the unique and best post c.b. answer, in testing and in the games, we sometimes drew the pyro after c.b. OR it is seen in resp to a b.s. OR it is the card seen with the ponder starting your opponent beore a c.b. lands... etc. so it seems a neccessary evil you you want to beat consistently Miracles.
I really don't think that 2-2 split vs miracles is a good thing, that was the feeling about full discard and maybe 1 pyro - opinión I somehow agree with F.Fortune.
I think that I will prefer to play 3A.Decay for next time - I think it is usefull when there is also a Senseis landed as you can avoid that scenario. but I'm frightned about how dead is vs counters...
my friend will opt to play 3 pyro.
I would ike to increment +1 to Xantid, maybe -2pyro +1Xantid+1A.Decay, or maybe leaving 1 pyro and take out the bribery...
@Lem, F.Fortune, Royce, Bryant:
Please let me know your opinión about a Strong or the Strongest Side Strategy vs Miracles.
Other things:
I just totally disagree on the opening post list, even the TNT list which is damned strong prefers to play 3b.w. instead of 3I.T. and even if using PiF, then you need I.T. in g.y. or hand unless there is a Like Mystical Tutor Card I will still play 8 Threats as mínimum., which is the purpose of this change, maybe I miss something? do you really think C.Ritual will make TES faster instead of I.T.?, Why not taking out B.W instead? it does seem nonsense to play 3 C.Mox to get full advantage of A.N. and 3 I.T.!!! Also Why not Diminishing Returns???
@Sawatriz, I think you suggested mein the BURG thread, let me give you a suggestion for free: DO NOT play 2nd A.N instead of the Lonely EtW. Now the TriForce is a sacred cow.
Not to speak for others but a number of pages back was when most of the discussion around Discard vs. Silence took place; you likely missed it. Truncating the full text slightly (removing deck lists and some of the text) but you can click the 'go to post' link to read the full posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
I will add from my own experiences as of late that I am happy with the removal of Silence change for a number of the reasons that were outlined in some of the linked posts below. Setting up for the combo turn, protection against discard, using it more easily intra-combo, land availability and even something as simple as being able to imprint onto a Mox for B have all been bonuses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Woooooooo! 3000 posts! Champagne for everyone!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
http://www.washingtonlife.com/wordpr.../Champagne.jpg
To clarify, my suggestion of 2nd Ad Nauseam in the side was for combo matchups, not an idea to main it over EtW. Against combo, EtW comes out anyway, and its not like Pyroblast, Bribery, or Surgical Extraction makes for a really effectual one-of against storm/reanimator/mana-dredge. I wasn't advocating for just maining 2 Ad Nauseam in all matchups, there are certainly aggro decks that make ad nauseam less effective and make EtW a lot better etc
Ah,finally got it !
Well,i would do that for sure,increasing explosiveness is always good in combo-matchups .
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
That is not what I said. You suggested second AN in the board, Sawatarix a second in the Main. I adressed both ideas in a single paragaph and pointed out why I don't like cutting the options to fast Goblins in game 1, nor see the significant value of having the second AN in the side for combo matchups if you have Bribery/Telemin in the side and 4 IT + 1 AN in the main and you can remain threat density in case of removing EtW for combo matchups (or other matchups where EtW is lackluster) by siding in a SB engine in it's placeQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Overall I doubt we need to dedicate SB slots for being even faster
Hi guys, got a question about a play i did in a test game versus UWR Miracle. The game state was as follows:
Me.
Tropical tapped.
Volcanic, Sea untapped.
Hand: Cabal Therapy, Wish, Infernal, Petal, LED, Brainstorm.
Top of the library: LED, Petal.
Opponent:
Volcanic,Tundra,Fetch untapped.
Fluster, Brainstorm, Jace as the only relevant cards in hand.
I had an AdN with one mana floating after therapy, but he had flusterstorm. I tapped Usea and played therapy. He used BS, i named Fluster. He ended up drawing Force,Counterbalance,Flusterstorm, put back 2 flusterstorm's and i lost. I'd like some feedback on this play. My reasoning for this is: he has only a brainstorm to find another counter, which couldn't be flusterstorm, or therapy would've hit it. This left only max 7 cards, which seemed fair in a 49 cards deck. Also, if one of those outs was pierce, it wouldn't have stopped me from comboing if he had played it on wish(after brainstorm->petal x2->led x2), although i doubt anyone would've done that.
In other words you knew he had flusterstorm and you expected him to hide it as a logical response and still named flusterstorm instead of next-level him by naming another counterspell like FoW? You can play around Pierce (if you name FoW and still see him holding Pierce) if you go for EtW AND can immediately flashback Therapy for his Jace or other annoyance he drew off the brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrasher
I don't see a problem
He had a 37,7% chance of drawing a non-flusterstorm playing 7 other counters, 42,1% playing 8 and 33% playing 6. If he had not found one, my only problem would've been the flusterstorm he might have kept, which is why i called it. I could've gone for natural lethal tendrils playing around pierce, too. I guess i relied too much on luck and maths.
Thank you.
The point is: Why should he expose his Flusterstorm(s) to your Therapy if he knew that you know that he holds it? The best he can do is hiding it and hope you can't combo this turn out with the lonely untapped land in play (as he don't know about your hand). Otherwise we would just lose a card for nothingQuote:
Originally Posted by Thrasher
Empty is fine right now, it's much stronger in TES in comparison to ANT. The speed, the additional storm from Chrome Mox as well as the full compliment of Cabal Therapy. It's not ideal against fast combo, but it gets the job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I'd have to check my notes, but I win about 40% of my games by attacking and another 40% with Ad Nauseam. With the remaining 20% being natural storm or Past in Flames.
I had a pretty awesome game against Sneak and show where he went two Show and Tell into Grisel tapping a Tomb, fetching and probing. Meaning, when I attempted to win he went to one life after drawing 14 cards, I had barely enough mana to win with Grapeshot through a Daze (His list was a little weird). Felt good.
Usualy whenI know the counter of my opponents hand and he brainstorms in response to Therapy I go for the sencond most posible counter that would get me. If he Outsmart me keeping it in hand I still know the other counter. If he puts on top and I get the other I just win. So whats the problem?
In the example game against UWr Miracles why wouldn't the miracles player put back one flusterstorm and jace/counterbalance, that way he/she will have fow+blue card and flusterstorm to use? He could just go and flusterstorm the cabal therapy if he would want to as well and that would leave him with fow + flusterstorm if he decides to keep two flusterstorms and fow?
It definitely makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machahiko
That's something i often do, too. The difference here is that i didn't want him to untap, so knowing the other counter wouldn't have been useful. If i had named force and missed due to him keeping flusterstorm, he would have had a counter in hand + a shuffle effect + counterbalance/top/cantrips which he might have seen with brainstorm, which would have let him either lock me or find more counters, while all the protection i had was a wish->seize (using my whole next turn) or brainstorm into petal + 2 unknown cards, one of which had to be either a discard spell or a ponder into a discard spell, if i wanted to have a shot at winning the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
The underlined part. I was thinking as if he knew what i had in my hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Aside from the mindgames to outsmart your opponent here, I don't see a point in discussion a gamestate in which your opponent has Jace, FoW, Counterbalance and 2 Flusterstorms available with all the mana to cast those
So, after reading quite a bit of material I am still a little hazy as far as sideboard slots go. I know that some people are in favor of using Abrupt Decay as a reactive strategy, and others are in favor of running a little more discard + more Xantid Swarms as a proactive strategy. I was just wondering if this type of decision is going to be player preference or if there is statistically/fundamentally some type of argument for one or the other.
Those slots don't even adress the same matchups. It's not a matter of preference but of your expected metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
@Lemnear:
The idea about that strategy vs miracles and I remember also some of your notes:
- the more I.Tutor you have the faster you are and vs c.b. is something you want to have Access to.
- When M.Mage names B.W. and there is no option for destroying it I.T. is the card you need to draw
- The one you mentioned - Once c.b. lands, a 2 card cost can occurs less times.
About D&T match up, on the play I want a ponder over a tropical, I remember among other match ups in which I played vs D&T with silence in which T.I. took its place. I didn't see much the difference, I just need to take 2 useless cards and prefer T.S. and G.S over T.I., which is your priority of preference?, the context of that game was wider aniway... I think he had more beaters in hand plus vial or like... after analyzing was just bad luck. I think the 6 or 7 before D&T player I've won, in one used D.R.!
so you suggest vs Miracles:
-1 C.Mox,-1 Ponder,-1EtW, -2C.Therapy , -1I.T. = +2Pyro, +2A.Decay, +1Tropical I., +1 T.Seize as a strong strategy vs miracles. not sure. anithing better? on the Draw the same tan on the Play, I feel that sometimes not.
I've been thinking in
-1C.Mox,-1EtW-1Ponder,-1C.T. = + 3 pyro,+1T.Seize
or
-1C.Mox,-1EtW-2Ponder = +3A.D.,+1T.Island
and yes, I accepted beeing dead if my opponent draws into a Counterbalance... but is that htere are so many cards I dont want to see... and are mainly Senseis and C.b.... a senseis means he can hide a FoW on top and just loose... so On the play I just prefer to use as much discard and win as quick as posible... so that's what I want to avoid...
The thing is that in a Shell with ANT-3B.W. I really do not mind to play directly 3 A.D. in side as you're late game will be strong... but in here not always A.D. is the card you need or makes you win the game... thats why I maybe prefer even more discard or pyros.
@Final Fortune any suggestion for Strong Side vs Miracles?
Sure yours is +1T.Seize+1Pyro = -1EtW,-1Ponder...
@Bryant and Royce: Any strong good idea vs Miracles tested?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Alright, going to a local weekly tournament of roughly 9-18 players (varies each week).
Here is the deck list I plan on bringing:
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Fetch lands
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
1 Pyroblast
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Bribery (There are going to be 3x 12post players and 1 Show and Tell player...metagame call)
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
Wish me luck and does anyone have any advice for taking really good game notes without slowing play down? I want to be able to write up my matches and see if you guys can provide advice for some of my misplays.
I wish I could get away with six Cabal Therapy. You sure are a braver man than I.
Hahaha, sorry about that. I meant 2 Cabal Ritual. I'll try to edit the postQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryanzoll
2 letter shorthand or just abbreviations is my method.
I find two letters covers most everything
Google glases?
Yeah 2 letters should be enought ^^
I still write led but just cause im used to.
I'm also a fan of just 6 discard spells because if you sequence you spells wisely your rituals become "duresses" (your opponent will counter them)
I remember a 7 round tournament 7 weeks ago.
My friend robert (known as cabal therapy" here ) and i played storm and after round 2 he said: "i just crushed both team america and rug delver 2:0 without casting a single discard spell !"
Amazing guy
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Hi! I am new here, this is my list I have been playing ( I am from Brazil and I am sorry if my english is not so good), I wouldn't change anything since my lasts champs I did x-0, x-1 with reanimators and sneak and shows. Miracles will always be a very hard match but not impossible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAI4Sy1t5Co
I would like to know what you guys think about this:
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Silence
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Rite of Flame
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Fetch lands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 City of brass
Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Tropical Island
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 ill-gotten gains
You simply cut the best business spell for a land right?
I wouldn't do that for sure.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Yeah, I don't like play 12 lands and I always played with infernal in the sideboard, that allows me do ad nauseam with burning wish. Never had a problem with it.
Would you let me know what the metagame in your area of brazil looks lik so 5c with Silence can still pull it's weight?
Sure, reanimator, sneak and show, D&T, Jund, sometimes goblins but what I most see here is the esper decks or uwr decks with TNN. I really like silence, against leyline and you can avoid the counter on the top with sensei's divining top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I started the overhaul on the opening post yesterday. Looking forward to writing a lot more today!
Lately I've been running into an issue against decks just aggressively Wastelanding me out of games. Against Delver decks it's harsh trying to deal with a fast clock, especially with Daze, and against BUG/Blade decks they can use DRS as an allowance to Wasteland me while retaining the ability to play discard spells and keep Planeswalkers within reach. Looking back through the thread, I've seen suggestion of playing a 13th land mainboard, or siding cards like Carpet of Flowers, but neither idea seems to prevail in the thread as worthwhile. Another worry is that a slow hand of multiple lands, or even mulling into a hand with multiple lands leaves me vulnerable to take more damage from the faster decks, and eat more discard from the control decks.
Is this just one of those things of sometimes they have Delver -> Waste+Daze/DRS -> Waste+Hymn and I just have to accept those losses or is there some tech card i can make if I expect a meta like that? Carpet seems to be the closest answer, but even then it can be played around. I ask because a lot of MTGO dailies have involved me getting Waste'd out pretty badly by BUG/RUG stuff, and any particular build of hate or engines just gets rendered irrelevant because I can't play any of my cards whatsoever.
@WonderPreaux
I would say fundamentally if you are getting wasted/discarded out of games it is because you are playing around countermagic a bit too much with your potential turn 1/2 combo. Be daring! Theres times to be cautious and times to raise hell. "picking your spot" is definitely one of the hardest aspects of the deck. Once you start losing your games to countermagic you can go back to exposing yourself to wasteland and you'll find your spot eventually.
Went to tournament last saturday and finish 3-2 with the new list (love it sincerely)
win against bug - 12 post - and tezzeret deck
loose againt miracle with hawfull hand allways draw counter if counterbalance was not in place and after a decay to start a counterspell again it was like this during 2 games just awfull match couldnt do anything
loose the last one show and tell deck first one i wasn't quick enough
second one add in 2 xantid + 2 pyroblast put xantid firs turn ok took wipeaway put back xantid for fow ... manage to get 11 mana in my pool to many storm to cast adnauseam for force of will enough to cast tutor for tendril but took spellpierce ... i would have prefer to get one duress instead of mana or silence
but i was really happy with this deck after long time without playing magic.
i feel the deck is quicker than before (if it was posible) but maybe a bit less protected again blue anyway take pleasure to play with it
Let me mention first that the switch to more fetches and reduced color requirement for a protected combo turn adressed this issue already, which was the reason for trying out cards like Carpet or the 13th MB land. As your question contains a number of factors and decks, we need to split them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Fast Damage with Wasteland:
The only 2 viable ways to kill opponents that ride Delver on the back of Wasteland is either dropping goblins so you can ignore your previous lifeloss or setup a natural spellchain (playing 8 vs. 7 cards) as you have quite some turns to dig for lands. Depending on your starting grip you choose to work into one of the mentioned directions. You can sit in your fetchlands and just expose Rainbows to their wastelands for cantripping/Wish for discard and drawing out counters
Waste + DRS + Hymn:
Turn 1 U.Sea plus DRS telegraphs such a blowout and Probe can reveal it in time. Depending on being on the draw or play you have 1-2 turns to either drop goblins/fire off AN to be faster than Wasteland + Hymn (pretty much the same gameplan like against D&T) or dropping all your mana and playing the deck off the top after you boarded in your 13th land to do so. TES can win against wasteland/Hymn.dec with an empty hand too.
You don't need more than the already available 13th land in the SB against those decks if you adapt your playstyle to your opponents decks. Getting constantly blown out by wasteland plus either fast damage or discard sounds like keeping business/cantrip-heavy hands with fragile mana to plow through several counters which aren't even there. Goblins, natural chain (damage + wasteland) and playing off the top (wasteland + hymn) are your bread and butter in these 2 matchups. Planning your game around Ad Nauseam in these matchups will fail.
It was quite some time I did not saw you around here. Welcome home :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaycounet
The deck indeed got faster by now no longer needing white mana for Silence but a total of 2 IMS' only for a protected combo turn as blanking Envelop or Stifle was no longer required in the current metagame, which offered new Problems in form of multiple axis of hate