[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

I've tried Hymn. Every time I think of it I remember the game against Springtide that went:

Turn 1, Land Thoughtseize
Turn 2 Hymn
Turn 3 Thoughtseize Hymn, Lose the game.

It's happened a couple times so I've been a bit jaded against the Hymns and other discard spells. I've opted for hate-bears and hymn.

If you're wondering why I don't run Leyline, it's probably had the worst experience... Against Belchor. Let's just say that it ended with him have 34 Goblins waiting to come in while his belchor was shooting me. It was turn 1 and I started with 2 Leylines in play.

Needless to say, I have bad luck against combo.

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Haha, I seem to have the exact opposite - great luck against combo.

I had a game vs. TES where he wins the roll and goes Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam. He proceeds to kill himself drawing nothing but Infernal Tutors, Burning Wishes, Tendrils and other non-mana cards. Nice! I won without even playing a land!

Or a 1-land Belcher that goes off turn 1 revealing land after first couple of cards. Thank god for Vindicate to completely blow him out of the game!

Despite all that, I hate playing against any fast combo deck. :)

I think Rock / Junk may be in for a small comeback. Maybe I'm being too enthusiastic for no reason, but I just have that feeling.

Big issue though is that very few people are playing this deck and most probable cause is money. It's one of the most expensive decks and for same money you can sleeve up something like Stoneblade or Maverick.

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Originally Posted by Borealis

The reason you run Vindicate still isn't just planeswalkers, but also things like Batterskull/Jitte/Swords in Game 1, and problematic creatures that make it past your cheaper removal. Mostly, though, it's because people DO run basics alongside their Duals, and Wasting them out of the game is more likely to happen when you can back it up with a Vindicate on their basic, or their remaining nonbasic. It's not necessary by any stretch, but part of the appeal of a heavy Loam/Diamond deck is that you can recur Wastelands. Being able to Vindicate is, in my opinion, pretty crucial to that plan. I also just love Vindicate in general, and I've never been sad to draw it. When it's sitting in your hand, it means you still have an answer to nearly everything in the format.

Anyway, I've decided to take another swing with Junk for the upcoming SCG tournament nearby. Here's where I left off last, and my current starting point:
List
That's basically a few cards off from the build I last used to get a top 16 at Jupiter Games. I'll be making some changes I'm sure, but I think Junk might be actually a good contender again in the current format.

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I have the pridemages to keep equipment in check. I think you have a solid Junk list though. Why have you chosen to not play either SFM or GSZ? Without 4xLoam/Diamonds you can easily make room. Either of them fit nicely into your list and give another avenue of attack.

Why Elspeth over Lilliana main board? As time goes on Lilliana gets better and better and people are figuring that out.

You also have no dedicated anti-combo slots which seems troubling and is something we are all having issues with at the moment. GSZ would help with getting a Teeg maindeck.

I have been having much success with Nantuko Monastery in the Maze of Ith slot...just a thought.

@ Elimister: Life must be good for you!

I think BWG is ready to move to mainstream...Im not sure if you noticed but mono white is good in Vintage. Anything can happen now! The deck is expensive but that is because all of the cards are awesome!

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I have the pridemages to keep equipment in check. I think you have a solid Junk list though. Why have you chosen to not play either SFM or GSZ? Without 4xLoam/Diamonds you can easily make room. Either of them fit nicely into your list and give another avenue of attack.

Why Elspeth over Lilliana main board? As time goes on Lilliana gets better and better and people are figuring that out.

You also have no dedicated anti-combo slots which seems troubling and is something we are all having issues with at the moment. GSZ would help with getting a Teeg maindeck.

I have been having much success with Nantuko Monastery in the Maze of Ith slot...just a thought.

@ Elimister: Life must be good for you!

I think BWG is ready to move to mainstream...Im not sure if you noticed but mono white is good in Vintage. Anything can happen now! The deck is expensive but that is because all of the cards are awesome!

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yes i believe that BGW junk can be an answer to issue of dominating maverick/rug cause we can find answers to them thanks to our mana color B(perish, nature's ruin, virtue's ruin), G(choke, tsunami(lol)), W(stp), BG(pernicious deed, maelstrom pulse), WB(vindicate). List in the past months i adapted a standard build of junk, now i have 5 slots namely 3 mox diamond, 2 gerrard's verdict and i want to replace them by something else maybe i will use lavafrogg list like useage of liliana and pridemages for the upcoming april 22 local legacy tourney, still atm i'm brainstorming my list on debate on the flexible slots

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Originally Posted by ryn ball_2

yes i believe that BGW junk can be an answer to issue of dominating maverick/rug cause we can find answers to them thanks to our mana color B(perish, nature's ruin, virtue's ruin), G(choke, tsunami(lol)), W(stp), BG(pernicious deed, maelstrom pulse), WB(vindicate). List in the past months i adapted a standard build of junk, now i have 5 slots namely 3 mox diamond, 2 gerrard's verdict and i want to replace them by something else maybe i will use lavafrogg list like useage of liliana and pridemages for the upcoming april 22 local legacy tourney, still atm i'm brainstorming my list on debate on the flexible slots

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Without loams, I feel that GSZ acceleration is better than mox diamonds but that is probably because I have a hard on for GSZ right now....look at my sideboard:p Is your list using any of the standard packages?(GSZ, SFM, LftL)

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I have the pridemages to keep equipment in check. I think you have a solid Junk list though. Why have you chosen to not play either SFM or GSZ? Without 4xLoam/Diamonds you can easily make room. Either of them fit nicely into your list and give another avenue of attack.

Why Elspeth over Lilliana main board? As time goes on Lilliana gets better and better and people are figuring that out.

You also have no dedicated anti-combo slots which seems troubling and is something we are all having issues with at the moment. GSZ would help with getting a Teeg maindeck.

I have been having much success with Nantuko Monastery in the Maze of Ith slot...just a thought.

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The reason I don't run a stone blade package is that I feel it's a Bit clunky without blue to back it up, and also because people will be prepared for it. I think Esper/UWR Stoneblade and maverick are better mystic decks, So I'd rather beat them than try and join them. Dodge the hate. Also, what would you cut from my list? You need at least 5-6 slots, and I'm pretty happy with all the cards in there already.

Same goes for Green Sun. If I run GSZ, I should be running at least 1 dryad arbor and some hierarchs. At that point I start to look like a worse Bant or Maverick deck again. But to be fair, I can see the value in having like 2 zeniths with a couple bullets. Namely Teeg and Ooze. Teeg isn't the end all for combo anyway, just a speed bump. Surgical and extirpate do work alongside the discard in those matchups, but I'm probably still soft to ANT/TES and Hive Mind. I only expect to see those decks once per tournament, but if I really expect trouble I will probably consider Teeg with a couple GSZ.

Liliana is good, no doubt, but she's not that effective against RUG or MAVERICK. Even Stoneblade can easily get around her edict. Right now I think I prefer vindicate in her place. I was running a 1/1 split with her and Elspeth before, but that was when I expected a lot more Reanimator, Emrakul, and Progenitus. Against fast and heavy creature decks she doesn't do enough, while Elspeth can just win you games out of nowhere. At worst she a better fog effect than Lily.

I'll try out Nantuko Monastery, seems fun. But that slot might actually be best as a Tower of the Magistrate right now.

Also LavaFrogg, my list is pretty different from yours, and I took the above build from the version I had just about perfected (for my meta) back in November (back on page 106 or so in this thread). I made a couple updates but it's still my build. No offense, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm quite familiar with the deck, though I do still appreciate the 10 key points and other advice. I was actually going to try and assemble NO RUG, but decided I didnt really have the time or money to invest in it before next weekend. Junk is my old standby, and my friend convinced me to play it again. Didn't take much convincing really. :)

I've certainly got a lot of testing to do before May 6, November was a long time ago.

Borealis- no:one makes you play any cards you don't want to play:) I wouldn't play dryad arbor or noble but I would play ooze and pridemage to tutor for. If you just use it for slight utility and don't go the full blown out package the card is still quite effective!

I know our lists are super different, that's why I was offering my thoughts on your list and not saying something like "you need loam+mox noob!!". Matt has a really good version of junk a few pages back on the forum and it is a really good starting point for someone who has been off for a few months. He plays death mark main to combat maverick and stoneblade.

The ten points are for sheep token who was asking for pointers playing my list at an even today, you just got in with a post before I submitted mine:)

Finally, Lilliana is really good against rug, they play a low creature count and usually only have 1-2 on the board and either of those could be a goose! Lilliana forces them to either start dumping their hand to burn her out(+1 ability first if you don't have to kill something) or start dumping creatures on the board(which they usually have to waste cantrips to find) to get around any blockers you have to beat the -2 effect. This plays right into what you want to accomplish, in that she has to die for them to win or they will get locked out of the game.

The same can be said for stoneblade. If they don't play lingering souls they they are very low on creatures as well and any creatures they do play are very small compared to yours. An active Lilliana is much more valuable to empty their hand onto the board where you can deal with inane ten ultimate way half their goodies! They don't have much of a clock to kill her with.... And pridemages ensure equipment don't get up and running.

Maverick is a harder matchup but keeping them in top deck mode and fighting the knight war is how you win. After boarding you bring in a sweeper, use Lilly to make them overcommit and wipe there dreams away. Like I said, she is really good if the board is clear... And you play gb and huge dudes to protet her.

Lava- my bad, looked like you were responding to me.

Matt's list is actually pretty close to mine, except he runs green sun in the mox slot and has a few other small changes. And while you point out I don't have to run the usual ramp targets with GSZ (dryad, etc.), I noticed you mentioned doing it to someone else a few pages back. We are trained to ask questions like that as legacy players. Anyway, the point is its a little hard to justify GSZ without at least a dryad arbor, as ramping early is part of the strength of moxen and also mitigates the extra mana cost for future GSZs. I will test out GSZ though and may find its worth having a small tutor package. Most likely it will only be 1-2 zenith with a Teeg in the board.

I wouldn't run Deathmark main. Sure it helps vs maverick, and is somewhat playable against rug and Esper blade, but it's dead in a LOT of matches. I've got darkblast in that slot, as it kills delvers, cliques, tokens, snaps, bobs, and a lot of other diverse dudes. Repeatably though. My main deck EE is also very effective against all those matchups, but provides more possible card advantage and is relevant in nearly every other match. Sideboarding virtue's ruin or perish or feed is also very effective vs maverick too. I know the deck is popular, but there are other decks that will stand in my way at SCG Providence.

I'll try out lily again too, don't worry. The reason I had a split before was that I'd rather not see either in multiples, and they each shine in different matches. Maybe now it's ok to run 2 lily though. Still I wouldn't cut the last Elspeth from the list, ever.

Can anyone give a sample deck list with 4 GSZ? I'm pretty sure there are at least 3 different builds with GSZ.

Also, is having a build with Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls along with the green staple creatures considered to be a Rock deck?

I'm trying this at the moment:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Deathmark (dead in so many matchups, I beg to differ :tongue:)
2 Engineered Explosives (die tokens, die)
1 Life form the Loam (has been very nice, take that Wasteland :tongue:)

2 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Green Sun's Zenith

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The EE's and Pulses are there to help combat tokens clogging the board, which is your main problem against Esperblade. The games are much better now that they don't run as many counters, but you get gummed up during the combat phase and then they just attrition you with fliers and Equipment. That's awkward, so I've started running Pulse. All I have to say: holy derps. Mucking tokens 2-6 at a time is an insane swing.

EE is there not only for tokens, but for the most Nimble of Mongeese. So annoying. Powder Keg type effects are what I'm looking for (but, mind you, Keg costs 2, and Spell Snare is big in that deck, or some builds at least). So, setting it to one doesn't hurt us, but really hurts them. Also does triple duty for tokens and 1-drops in Esperblade and Maverick, respectively.

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Regarding RUG tempo, having so many free spells and maindeck Pierce is making the deck insanely good right now. Has anyone given any thought to Timely Reinforcements? The 6 point life swing can be huge, and putting some dudes out to chump block for a turn or two while you lay down real threats can be great. Might be worth it...

-Matt

atm i'm brewing this list and subjected to change

4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
3 tarmogoyf
2 qasali pridemage
1 gaddock teeg
1 thrun the last troll
1 scavenging ooze
1 dryad arbor

3 thougtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 vindicate
3 green sun's zenith

4 swords to plowshares

3 sensei's divining top

2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog

i havnt test this in an actual tourney comments are welcome :)

sdematt, on Darkblast/Deathmark: If Deathmark works that well in your meta, you can't be faulted for running it. (I did notice you cut down to one though:wink:) And Darkblast is probably just about equally narrow in some ways, but against different decks. The difference is that you can recur Darkblast and completely blow them out sometimes. Also, Dredging is pretty relevant in this deck, especially when you have an Active Top/Library out (and no fetches or low life). I'm actually considering compromising, and running a singleton Jitte in that slot, with a Darkblast or 2 in the board.

I do like your Maelstrom tech, I'll definitely replace a Vindicate with one alongside the EE I already have. Deeds in the board will clear the way games 2 and 3.

Angels, I like where you're going with the tokens idea, but I think at some point you will just realize that you are starting to build TOKENS, which could actually be pretty good right now. B/W, with maybe a splash of green for something spicy, will probably be the optimal way to abuse the Bitterblossom/Lingering Souls/Intangible Virtue package. I have seriously considered adding 2 Lingering Souls to the main deck though (no Bitterblossom). There is probably another build there that would focus on Liliana, Lingering Souls, and Life from the Loam, but I feel that's yet another direction that will eventually lead to the desire for Anthem effects.

There are a lot of directions this deck can go, which has seemed to be the case since I started playing it last year. The biggest asset to Classic Junk or Rock though, is that nearly every card is a brutally effective threat or answer, and that you are always drawing live until the bitter end. Tokens gets away from that ideal a little bit. And packages like GSZ and Stoneforge are very effective too, but I prefer them to take up a smaller part of the deck, rather than the full game plan. Junk's best quality is always being able to pull a surprise win out of nowhere off the top of the deck at 3 life with a fetchland in play and a rotting Thoughtseize in hand. That, to me, is the true essence of this deck.

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Originally Posted by Borealis

There are a lot of directions this deck can go, which has seemed to be the case since I started playing it last year. The biggest asset to Classic Junk or Rock though, is that nearly every card is a brutally effective threat or answer, and that you are always drawing live until the bitter end.

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true i agree

@ borealis

I went down to one Deathmark because I needed a way to clear tokens, which I didn't have before. Deathmark was sitting around too much in the Stoneblade matchup after they fetch Equipment and more into the late game, so I wanted more sweep.

@ Nic Fit

If you guys haven't played Nic Fit, holy shit it's fun to play. It's like playing Rec-Sur back in 2003.

I wouldn't say it's better than Rock, but it's definitely different. Since it's true Rock, I'd say give it a whirl. It's SUPER fun. I honestly haven't had this much fun playing Legacy since...a long time. Not to say Junk isn't fun, just this was hilarious. Recurring Nightmare, Grave Titan, Deed, Sun Titan, etc. It was like EDH, but in Legacy. Holy hell. :cool:

-Matt

I need to get some time in with NicFit, I have never played it or even witnessed it in action. I feel that it is mostly a coin flip against our rock lists in that we play basics and should be able to "get there" in half of our games. That being said, it is probably a terrible matchup that I will never test due to the obscurity of the deck(lol, DTB).

ryn_ball: The Thrun is probably better off as another pridemage, it is just as good against stoneblade and good against other decks as well(more versatile than a 4/4), or even the 4th goyf. You never want to get too cute with your tutor targets. As you can see matt is running 2 ooze 1 pridemage and I will most likely wind up with the same split.

matt: Nothing was better than rec-sur except maybe Full English Breakfast but they were both random survival decks...RIP. How have you been doing on the fast combo match ups? It has been the topic of late:/

@sdematt
Yea it's really fun. I keep switching between the two decks and really can't decide. Rock still has the most raw power, beats, equipement and disruption (kinda like Malka Rock from the days). On the other side, Nic Fit is slower, but can overwhelm you in late game (Rec-Sur pretty much:).
For reference, i was trying out this list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post624244
The deck has a good game against top 3 decks in the format, can handle burn pretty well, but is really soft to combo, as expected.

@damionblackgear
Thanks for sharing your games! Some were pretty fun to watch. Elves were rough, though. Round 2, Game 2 i think i would have taken away Elvish Visionary or one of the Zeniths. But it's basically game for him eithef way, i guess.

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Originally Posted by Borealis

There are a lot of directions this deck can go, which has seemed to be the case since I started playing it last year. The biggest asset to Classic Junk or Rock though, is that nearly every card is a brutally effective threat or answer, and that you are always drawing live until the bitter end. Tokens gets away from that ideal a little bit. And packages like GSZ and Stoneforge are very effective too, but I prefer them to take up a smaller part of the deck, rather than the full game plan. Junk's best quality is always being able to pull a surprise win out of nowhere off the top of the deck at 3 life with a fetchland in play and a rotting Thoughtseize in hand. That, to me, is the true essence of this deck.

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I disagree...I fell that with the current state of the metagame, and with every meta shift, there is one list of BWG that is better than the others. Maverick has had the player base and repetitions to decide that the straight GW lists with fewest tutor targets are the superior builds. Now players have started dropping the SFM plan and just running more equipment, SFM is easily killed and a dead card otherwise.

Rock does not have the following that the larger DTB have and until it starts steamrolling tourneys, it never will. That doesn't mean that we cannot at least decide what are the core cards to play and what are the variations between each build. Following another deck and just becoming GWb Maverick or a version of NicFit is not what we are.

Right now I feel that building around Lilliana is the best option that the deck can offer. Be is SFM for equipment+lingering souls, or LftL and confidant to keep hands full. Lilliana is our ticket to fame/, she was taylor made for rock to slide in 3 or her and win games. If her ultimate was game ending every time....she would be a $50 card easily. No deck in the current meta is truly utilizing the pure card advantage she can create, she is second to only jace's brainstorm ability at creating CA and she is the most effective planeswalker against creatures as she kills them dead instead of bouncing or chump blocking, and her CMC allows her to be cast early when the game is relevant instead of after you have board control.

Just a slight rant...

What are your sideboards looking like at the moment?

RE: Combo

I don't have the greatest luck against Combo, and I haven't played against it much.

At GP Seattle in the Legacy side event, I faced SI in Round 1, not knowing how to play against it, and lost.

Round 2 I faced Burn. Some nice girl was playing Legacy for the first time, and I still lost.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

What are your sideboards looking like at the moment?
RE: Combo
I don't have the greatest luck against Combo, and I haven't played against it much.
-Matt

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Furthering my hard on for Lilliana at the moment...she is a house against combo. We can usually buy a turn or two with a discard spell and another turn with Gaddock Teeg, nut we really have nothing to keep the pressure on a combo player so we can win....enter Lilliana. With the +1 ability, if you start the game with discard, you seal the deal with Lilliana.

After she hits the board, the only threat you have to worry about is IGG or PiF...enter the multi-utility hero Scavenging Ooze. I also have GSZ for Teeg and Ooze in my board at all times and 3 flex spots that can easily be filled with Canonist or Orim's Chant if I suspect a lot of combo(and I'm not playing blue). Sooooo.... my board would be:

-4 Loam
-2 Swords
+2 GSZ
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Ethersworn Canonist

In addition to:

3 Inquisitions
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lilliana

In my main....fuck combo!

Like, what's your sideboard in total? What 15 cards did you shove in there? I'm revising mine at the moment, just wondering if anyone's running any tech I'm not aware of.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by zalachan

Thanks for sharing your games! Some were pretty fun to watch. Elves were rough, though. Round 2, Game 2 i think i would have taken away Elvish Visionary or one of the Zeniths. But it's basically game for him eithef way, i guess.

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It was fun to do but it messes with your train of thought. I'm gonna keep testing things out and try to put something up every other week (that way I don't have to do it when I'm working). I'm also going to try and keep it a little more up to date for what my actual list is currently. If things get crazy, I may draft but I figure that there are enough of those out there...