Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
For any of you guys who have read something I've written and found it to have some value, I'm going to be doing commentary at the MTGdeals Open this weekend on twitch if you want to check it out. This is a first for me, and for the store, so there are bound to be some issues. Lack of format knowledge WILL NOT be one of them, at least on Saturday during the Legacy event.
I hope nobody minds too much that I posted this in here, since it clearly has nothing to do with Miracles.
Here is a walk-through of the new store that was shot yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gm9tT0D0bQ
And here is the tournament announcement.
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/mtgdeals-op...nce=e9f160446e
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
For any of you guys who have read something I've written and found it to have some value, I'm going to be doing commentary at the MTGdeals Open this weekend on twitch if you want to check it out. This is a first for me, and for the store, so there are bound to be some issues. Lack of format knowledge WILL NOT be one of them, at least on Saturday during the Legacy event.
I hope nobody minds too much that I posted this in here, since it clearly has nothing to do with Miracles.
Here is a walk-through of the new store that was shot yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gm9tT0D0bQ
And here is the tournament announcement.
http://blog.mtgdeals.com/mtgdeals-op...nce=e9f160446e
I'll be there too. Hope to see ya!
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Spell Pierce is stellar in early game. and in late game can be pitched to fow without regrets.
I like to play 2 Counterspell anyway but along with 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Force of Will
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
honestly, not so much more than old counterspell
The difference between Spell Pierce and Counterspell is only turn 1. After turn 1 the advantage of the lower casting costing significantly drops, because this deck doesn't have to play the tempo game.
Spell Pierce is also not very interactive with Ponder and Top, if you intend to play them on turn 1.
The pitching argument is actually rather bad, because later in the game, you can hardcast FoW - pitching is rather an early game advantage.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
1) Should I run a 3rd Entreat in the sideboard? I find myself running short on wincons sometimes.
I wouldn't run it for being short on wincons. I'd run it if I wanted to help secure Jund and BUG. Without Red, you don't have access to Blood Moon, and Entreat is a house against them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
What about a 4th Terminus?
It's a meta-call between that and Supreme Verdict. I think Supreme Verdict is the better card at the moment though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
2) How useful IS Spell Pierce?
I'm one of the few that agrees with alphastryk here. Spell Pierce always feels like a crutch in this deck and becomes super dead in the late game. If you aren't running SFM or Delver, I'd stay away from Pierce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
3) Is there any way to stop Liliana early? I usually try to side in V.Cliques and Pithing Needles against her, but she absolutely wrecks me if she lands early.
Celestial Purge and Leyline of Sanctity are both very good against Liliana. Also, like sauce mentioned, landing a Top is great too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
4) Is Misdirection solid against Shardless BUG? I've seen some discussion on the previous page against it and it seems good to get Abrupt Decay, Ancestral Vision, Discard Spells, etc...
I don't like it, but some people do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
5) How killer is ANT/Storm decks? I've played a small sample size, but post sideboard, siding in Ethersworn Canonist absolutely wrecks them, especially behind countermagic. I'm just wondering if the 2 Ethersworn Canonists are necessary.
Combo in general is usually a pretty good MU, but Ethersworn Canonist is a great card to help shore things up. It's great against Storm, but it's also great against Show and Tell (the new Omniscience decks in particular). That said... I wouldn't run more than one because of your Enlightened Tutors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
The thing with Detention Sphere is that I don't like it in general for a few reasons:
- it is only good against 50% of the combo decks (but not so much against Storm, Reanimator), whereas Cunning Wish is only slow, but useful in every combo-matchup: Wish is just more calculable.
- D Sphere sucks against Abrupt Decay; it also sucks against every other form of enchantment hate like EE or something like that.
However, I do think that we need an effect like this, especially to deal with Batterskull, Jitte, and Sylvan Library.
With Show and Tell being such a deck to beat at the moment, I wouldn't run without a Detention Sphere. From what I can see, Cunning Wish doesn't really attack from a different angle than the counter magic we already have. It's just gravy that Detention Sphere answers so many other permanents while you're at it. Just board it out against Storm (and it's actually not so bad against classic Reanimator since they usually side into Show and Tells).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
D Sphere is indeed surprisingly good against Show and Tell, I agree here.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Iron Buddha
honestly, not so much more than old counterspell
The difference between Spell Pierce and Counterspell is only turn 1. After turn 1 the advantage of the lower casting costing significantly drops, because this deck doesn't have to play the tempo game.
Spell Pierce is also not very interactive with Ponder and Top, if you intend to play them on turn 1.
The pitching argument is actually rather bad, because later in the game, you can hardcast FoW - pitching is rather an early game advantage.
Also turn 2 top + protection
Turn 3 Counterbalance + protection
Turn 4 Vendilion Clique + protection
turn 5 Helm/Jace + Protection
it's good against some decks, it's stellar against combo, it's dead against others. Against Goblin or DnT it goes SB immediatly. Against ANT, combo, Show, etc. I'd like to play 12 Spell Pierce
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Apart from the fact that you need triple blue in all circumstances, protecting a Vendilion Clique or a protecting counterbalance is totally wrong play anyway, because these are the cards that are supposed to proctect your threats, namely Jace TMS, Elspeth, Entreat, etc.
You don't get anywhere if you protect your protection. I'm aware that you can regard clique and counterbalance as threats, but this is actually not why they are good.
Btw my U/W wishboard looks like this:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Surgical Extraction
1 open slot
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Spell Pierce may answer Jace, is an additional protection against Hymn and Liliana, may nab a Show and Tell (if the opponent is bad though, because otherwise he'll always play around it), allows you to SDT and protect it on turn 2, and together with the Plows increases the turn 1 reactive plays this deck can do when on the draw. It also catches Zenith, allows to get out from "Stifle-traps" from Threshold (very relevant), and hides your hand from cmc1 discard spells from Storm, although it won't pull the real work in that matchup.
The arguments about it being dead in lategame are surely true, but I would look at the function of the card as a way to stop spells Miracle is weak to rather than pointing out its obvious weaknesses. A configuration with 4 Forces, 2 Pierces and 2 Counterspells is surely fine. "The difference is just in 1 mana" is actually an enormous difference.
Don't forget that this deck also runs plenty of card selection to smooth its draws. If we were to judge cards basing on how they're dead in certain scenarios, Miracle spells would be the first ones to go.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Vendilion is a win condition
Counterbalance, in certain matchups, is a win condition too
they both may deserve protection regarding the situation
Anyway it's true that, if cards like Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip didn't exist, this would be one of the best deck ever in history
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I understand that Top into Spell Pierce on turn 2 is a nice play, anyway,
maybe, it's time to post my list.
Feel free to bash in...
// Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island
2 Plain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
// Set-up: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
// Removal: 8
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
// Bombs: 7
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Silver-bullet: 3
3 Cunning Wish
// Disruption: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
SB:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Spell Pierce
1 Path to Exile
1 Celestial Purge
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Noxious Revival
- more lands (less Ponder)
- loads of Elspeth, and Vendilion Cliques to fight Lilliana
- silver-bullet in C. Wish to grab Red Elemental Blast (Jace), Disenchant (Batterskull), Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fires), celestial purge (Lilliana)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Here is a video of two games WITH COMMENTARY of me playing UWr RIP Helm version vs another UWr RIP Helm.
The mirror can be pretty skill intensive. These two videos which I narrate in post production are a great example of how to play through what seems like unwinnable board states.
tl;dr Mirror Match video here -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl_qkycbfn8
edit: added decklist
http://www.berzerk.org/uwr-rip-miracles-23lands.jpg
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Iron Buddha
I understand that Top into Spell Pierce on turn 2 is a nice play, anyway,
maybe, it's time to post my listfindel free to bash in...
// Lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island
2 Plain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
// Set-up: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
// Removal: 8
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
// Bombs: 7
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
// Silver-bullet: 3
3 Cunning Wish
// Disruption: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Vendilion Clique
SB:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Spell Pierce
1 Path to Exile
1 Celestial Purge
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Noxious Revival
- more lands (less Ponder)
- loads of Elspeth, and Vendilion Cliques to fight Lilliana
- silver-bullet in C. Wish to grab Red Elemental Blast (Jace), Disenchant (Batterskull), Surgical Extraction (Punishing Fires), celestial purge (Lilliana)
so you pretty much abandon graveyard hate, allow pfire decks to do whatever they want. turn 1 drs will deal a lot of dmg before you find removal. As I said before, either abuse grave or hate it, neither is not an option.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
so you pretty much abandon graveyard hate, allow pfire decks to do whatever they want. turn 1 drs will deal a lot of dmg before you find removal. As I said before, either abuse grave or hate it, neither is not an option.
Well, he has Surgical Extraction that can be searched by Cunning Wish.
But... No Counterbalance? Why that decisión, Iron Buddha?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
in any list without RiP, it makes sense to play all possible Snapcaster Mage and Punishing Fire
if you don't want to mess to much with mana base, at least, SnapMage
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sauce
This is going to be harsh, and I feel a little bad saying it. But to any inexperienced players watching the match posted by sauce, you cannot view this passively and treat it as a learning experience. There are just too many errors in both play and reasoning. As an alternative, and I recommend this to sauce also, watch the first five turns of game one. Try and identify all the things you would have done differently. That could be a great tool for improving your skill.
Even though I disagree with a lot of the content, I applaud you sauce for doing it. And I hope the experience proves worthwhile for you.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
It's official: I surrender on the UWr enchantments version.
With all the Abrupt Decays around the only way to make it work is UWg (Sterling Grove / Carpet of Flowers).
Miracle to me:
Enchantment driven: UWg
Legendary Creatures driven: UWr
Redirect and Swerve are way too much mana expensive to make the UWr permanents based version viable.
Goodbye Pyroblast, welcome Sylvan Library
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zinch
Well, he has Surgical Extraction that can be searched by Cunning Wish.
But... No Counterbalance? Why that decisión, Iron Buddha?
I actually have no particular reason for that. I definitely can see to run a few Counterbalances (especially the first one) in place of a few counterspells. But I think that I don't necessarily need a soft lock in countertop, because my deck as a whole can function as such. So instead of topping the right CC on top of your library, you just dig for disruption.
As for SCM, I really tried to make him work, but I actually don't quite know how to put him in; the only slot I can see that is variable are counterspell (but counterspell has its merits) and maybe the third cunning wish (but my gut says cutting down on Wish is a very bad idea; Noxious Revival is a really nice target btw).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
4 Counterspell are definitly solid, but it appears you don't know the card advantage that Counterbalance can provide if you want to exclude it in a deck like this.
Any 1cc card in his hand is DEAD with a countertop set. a 5 cards hand, with 2 1cc = 3 cards hand.
even if you don't play anything.
never less than 2 Counterbalance
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oarsman
This is going to be harsh, and I feel a little bad saying it. But to any inexperienced players watching the match posted by sauce, you cannot view this passively and treat it as a learning experience. There are just too many errors in both play and reasoning. As an alternative, and I recommend this to sauce also, watch the first five turns of game one. Try and identify all the things you would have done differently. That could be a great tool for improving your skill.
Even though I disagree with a lot of the content, I applaud you sauce for doing it. And I hope the experience proves worthwhile for you.
I appreciate you being critical of my play but I would like for you to provide some more specific examples. I rewatched the first five turns.
The things I could have done differently is not spew off that brainstorm and wait for my turn to play a fetch and pass turn and then brainstorm in response to his counterbalance so I have more information.
As I said in the video to defend that brainstorm, I felt like I am too far behind if he has SDT and I don't. I feel like forcing the t1 SDT is a legit way to win the mirror. Do you not share that experience?
Besides that, what other things would you have done differently? Would you have put the RIP back w/ brainstorm and keep land instead? I was not certain from Island -> SDT that it's the mirror.
Thanks Joe.
