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It is subpar on games without blue, but everytime I try switching it for lands that works on most matches (buried ruins, wastelands, citadel, crystal vein, etc), I end up being severely punished by esper, BUG and miracles, so I have to run a minimum of 2. that's why I'm eager to try a build more planeswalker's oriented, those 2 slots could be used to reduce inconsistency instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
I've been running 4 cavern and been very happy with it. I can't think of a reason to run wasteland anymore. Cavern helps greatly vs Grixis Control, Miracles, and Shardless. Sometimes if you land that uncounterable Lodestone, you just win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflame
Did you notice tsabos web in his sideboard? Thats a bom against Death and taxes!
I wonder.. 3 ugin and 3 karn main, dropping metalworker for 4 monolith 4 thran dynamo hmmmm :laugh:
And Key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
I wonder if you can just ignore the attack phase and abuse Ensnaring Bridge. Just use the planeswalkers to win.
no doubt cavern IS good, but what I meant is that it's not good on every match on the colorless build.Quote:
Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman
edit: to further elaborate, being a nonbasic, you open yourself up to PoP and wasteland in a match where the opponent is not using blue, for no added value, making it strictly worse than just using a basic island. If you just had an island instead, your opponent would think twice and maybe play around daze while you laugh to yourself internally. (Not that I advocate using islands on colorless)
Something like this? With 10 colorless non-artifact cards i like to patent the name REAL-colorless mud . Cant test right now sadly :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
WINS:
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
NEED MANA:
3 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Expedition Map
NEED RIGHT CARDS:
1 Staff of Nin
2 Scroll Rack
NO COUNTER PLS:
4 Trinisphere
SURVIVE TILL WIPE:
4 Tangle Wire
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 All Is Dust
LANDS:
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
maybe cloister instead of staff? it goes well with bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
Thats a real neat mean combo sir, but isnt just dropping tangle wire enough against fast decks like goblins? I think with 4 turns you should be able to wipe them with all is dust or ugin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverflame
Wasteland has a tremendous synergy with all of the lock pieces (trinisphere, chalice of the void at x=1, lodestone golem). It can also deal with the occasional problematic lands such as maze of ith.Quote:
Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman
In my experience, the matchup against grixis, miracles, and shardless is already good. Shardless only plays 4 FoW for their counterspells for the whole deck (even post-board they usually don't have more countermagic).
I have seen a lot of lists running cavern of souls, but cutting 4 wastelands for 4 caverns seems like the incorrect lands to cut. If anything I would run a manabase like so:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
If you're having problems with counterspells, reconsider the order you're casting your spells. If I think my opponent has a Force of Will (or other counterspell for that matter), I always cast the second most important spell first. It should still be something that they will want to counter, but not the spell you really want to resolve. Baiting counterspells is an art, and it's a bit tricky. A lot of people playing counterspells will counter things that they don't actually have to, and you can play that to your advantage very easily.
For example: against miracles I feel like a chalice of the void at x=1 is way more important than a trinisphere. So I play trinisphere first because if it sticks it limits their options, and further spells will be more likely to land. If it doesn't stick, they've used a force of will and further spells are likely to land (for the next turn or 2).
there appear to be 61 cards in that list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
So...I was analyzing the differences between these two lists, and I think the reason he's running 3 Trinisphere is the land. Like you say, Trinisphere is great counter protection, but he's running four Cavern of Souls.Quote:
Overall a very SANE list for a change. I play 3 ugins currently because its that good. I only think 3 instead of 4 trinispheres doesnt make sense. A t1 or t2 trinisphere is just crazy good even better then a t1 chalice. timewalk stuff and counter protection. man.. u want 4.
Greetings artificers, I am the wizard who top 8'd the Premier IQ in DC back in January. Been iterating on the deck, be interested in people's thoughts.
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere
2 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Collossus
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Nin
1 Myr Battlesphere
3 Coercive Portal
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-----sb-----
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
The portals obviously set me apart from most other lists, I feel like a cheaper staff of nin is exactly what this deck is in the market for (staff is still sick). board it out against unfair decks, but I think it's fantastic against an opponent who's trying to beat you with removal and wastelands. I cut more expensive cards for them, portal feels like the most powerful effect you can have for the least amount of mana (besides lodestone obv) these lists with 4 ugin + platinum emperion seem like they are asking to be stuck with uncastable cards in their hand. Ugin and Portal are both among the worst cards in your deck vs. combo opponents, and assuming both are getting boarded out I'd much rather have portals game one. and while i recognize the board wiping effect is kind of irreplaceable (which is why I really like the first Ugin) in a world of Wasteland + Abrupt Decay the Portals enable you get to the point of the game where you can actually cast 6+ mana things. How many times have you played Grim monolith turn 1 and been wastelanded? if you can untap and play portal in those situations, your opponent is usually in a pretty bad spot.
Another card I feel particularly strongly about that nobody else seems to be playing - Myr Battlesphere. Not only is this guy a house to topdeck, the interaction with Forgemaster is out of control. So often do I find myself activating forgemaster for Battlesphere to fend off my opponent's army, then next turn forging away three homies to get the artifact I really need to win. The turn after that, even if you've drawn no artifacts, you still have enough to forge again without getting rid of the original forge target. It kills your opponent in two turns uninterrupted, beats any number of lilianas, and casting it turn 3 with cloudpost/vesuva/glimmerpost hands is ridiculous. I honestly couldn't imagine playing the deck without it, it feels like an essential part of the game plan. I don't even think it's crazy to play two.
Myr battlesphere is old fashioned MUD. Like 2010. (EDIT: 2011 more or less http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=995&d=209118&f=LE think this was MUD big start with forgemaster) Im not saying its bad. But for 7 mana nowadays you expect a lot more than some tokens and a ok beater. More then 1 forgemaster activation? Very rarely needed. Get blightsteel equip greaves, win. 7 mana is short 1 for a ugin wich is a pure win by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wohluigi
If you like sacking things i suggest get more of those wurmcoils, MUCH better. 6 mana. (2x) deathtouch, recurring and lifegain. Wow.
Battlesphere is the only threat that guarantees value if your opponent has an immediate answer. If you're trying to use wurmcoil to stabilize and they just exile it before you get a chance block, you're in a bad spot (if not dead that turn). If you search for battlesphere defensively your opponent has a tough choice on how to use council's judgement/plow - exile your forgemaster and die to Battlesphere or exile your battlesphere and leave you with an activation next turn. You even get to chump block 1 or 2 creatures if you need to. I'd say I make this line when I have forgemaster somewhere between 30-40% of the time, it is almost a surefire way to beat someone who is trying to kill you with ground creatures. Battlesphere is irreplaceable IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
Doesn't some Workshop decks run Battlesphere in Vintage? Or do they do that just because of Tangle Wire?
Who- would chose to exile battlesphere instead of forgemaster? battlesphere is just a creature. A pottentialy 8/7 creature. Could kill someone, or just sit there. It isnt a greaved out blightsteel or a hasty hellkite or a invinceble emperion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wohluigi
I think there is a reason battlesphere is dropped from most performing mud lists.
Of course if you like it you can build around it. Maybe with eldrazi monument? But thats entering casual fun..
I'm sorry for grasping at straws with this deck, what I actually played the other night . I lost game 1 to a janky goblins deck. Game two I wrecked house because I played against Burn and drew my Wurmcoil as well as my Welder, even after my opponent tried to burn away the Wurmcoil I still managed to get it into play because I weldered it back. I came very close to winning against Cloudpost but my opponent drew all of his hate including Pithing Needle and totally shut me down and couldn't draw into any more relevant cards against them. He managed to find tons of lands for some reason even though I wasted him twice. I drew my Petrified Field that game and Wasted twice! Which felt very good. The burn player almost killed me with 2 Price of Progress and a Fireblast but I still won. He never drew another but I protected myself a bit late by Wasting my own lands and using Petrified field and the sac effect from the City of Traitors to get rid of more lands off the field.
My reasoning basically for not playing Cloudposts… #1, the Forgemaster combo very rarely works without the artifact lands having been drawn. That 1 extra card or 2 to sacrifice makes all the difference because you want to protect yourself against Swords to Plowshares. I don't want to play draw go with no counters, no removal, no discard, until I get a Thran Dynamo into play with enough lands after getting Wasted to cast a big planes walker. Delver decks are just too fast and I need to win against them . Lodestone Golem is a useless card without Wasteland in the deck, and I don't think that the Cavern of Souls is justified out of the deck either. I've won games with Welder strategy in the past simply because I was able to keep away one Stoneforge activation . So I figure if I am going to play artifact lands, and cavern, then I am justified playing Welder. Cavern is bad with planes walkers because I can't actually name those, so the frequency of getting them Force'd will be way higher. I haven't play tested it much yet but for more mana sources, I was going to play Sandstone Needle, which is the best option I think as a Sol land besides City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb, which again makes playing Welder more sensical. I've tested Daretti and I don't like it because my opponent can just attack into it. He's not Legacy playable that is my verdict .
Biggest mistake of building the deck is playing more mana rocks , things that draw cards, and things you can't cast.
Goblin Welder does everything. So play it. the Cloudpost lands are too slow for this deck, play it combo and cut them.
We're playing Cloudposts to cast 5 and 6 drops. Something seems dreadfully wrong with this. I kind of want to just shelve the deck until they make another land cycle or some land that can boost and is playable besides Scorched Ruins or Sandstone Needle.
My deck, going to play it next week . . . Could use some better Weldering suggestions that are for 6 mana or less. Triskelion gives me a board wipe-like effect . I finally have my Batterskull and I am going to play it because I want an answer to.. Batterskull. and I wanted a threat besides Lodestone Golem that is a better curve with the deck. I can play the Godo uncounterable and get an extra combat phase. This is very useful against Batterskull as well. I don't care to play extra equipment I kind of just want the extra combat round. I'm hoping that I don't draw the Batterskull and can cast Godo uncounterable and get it into play that way, if not I can still Welder it if I cast it and it gets countered because I had Cavern to cast something else uncounterable (see?). Triskelion might look weird but it will knock out two Delvers that are attacking for 6 every turn that you can't block because they have flying. It will also kill planes walkers. Godo is good attacking twice because of Blightsteel. If he's in play he's going to bring his friend Batterskull. I'm trying it anyway.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Tower of the Magistrate (was the Petrified Field)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord (was a Steel Hellkite now moved to sideboard..)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Staff Of Domination
2 Lighting Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Batterskull (was a Sundering Titan)
4 Grim Monolith
Sure if you have greaves already out hellkite or blightsteel are usually your best bet, but it's not like you have greaves every game. In my experience, Myr Battlesphere rarely "just sits there". If you can afford to attack with the Battlesphere out it kills them in two turns, and if you can't it's not likely your opponent can attack favorably past your 4/7 and 1/1's, giving you enough time to set up a kill. None of the other threats do anything for you if your opponent can just remove them right away. Battlesphere has more resilience to Plow, Liliana, and Jace more than any other threat in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Holland
My problem with this argument is that if you get bounced by Jace, sac'ed by Lili or destroyed by Council's Judgment then you obviously misplayed Kuldotha 's ability. The only time your fatty will get Plowed is if they have just topdecked it. Otherwise they will have used it on Kuldotha instead. From my expierience only once my Blightsteel got plowed after Kuldotha activation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wohluigi
So I find it difficult to choose Battlesphere when we have so many artifacts to choose from. Even Batterskull would be better 9/10 times.
This is exactly what I'm doing. I hardly ever attack. When I do, it's with a Steel Hellkite being pumped to a million to end the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
When you resolve metalworker+staff or Ugin/Karn the opponent often surrenders, in my experience.
(See my list at p.122)
Congratz on your top 8!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wohluigi
I completely agree with you on Coercive Portal (although I play cloister, it's basically the same strategy).
I wonder though, why no Wastelands? Didn't you miss them? I understand the extra artifacts (citadel) are nice for both forgemaster/metalworker but still... it's hard to put early pressure on the game without Wasteland I would think?