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It is being talked about, just not in this thread.
I personally don't run Angel, so I do not see myself running this new card. That said, it still is viable and I can see it making its way into all the legacy decks that currently run Angel. This one included.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
Don't think we should bother with Dread Return or Targets MD, and SB I think you're better off with either Grudge or Ray. Seems like the best possible card to MD as a 1x for Manaless Dredge tho'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrheizenberg
That aside, how are people dealing with Deathrite Shaman on the draw?
I'm playing four Firestorm mb since I'm not on LED anymore. Otherwise, nothing. Two rainbow lands plus Darkblast is too unreliable and it's obviously vulnerable to the DRS itself. On the other hand, maybe the answer is overloading on dredgers to discard two or more with higher frequency.
If my hand isn't explosive enough, play land, go. Draw a couple of draw spells, land, dredgers and maybe LED then go offQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
you deal with deathrite shaman by running dread return main... x.0
This!Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicy Karaage
Postboard my plan is usually speed and in addition two (max. three) Firestorms in my Deck to have more good openers versus Shaman (LED/BT or Firestorm).
I'm not sure how this pertains to anything I said. We were strictly speaking about LED, Troll, Looting, 4 blanks hands. I understand that there are situations where you want to discard other gy pieces, but this isn't one of them because you'd have no other dredgers in the 'yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
About the turn1 DRS while on the draw; I like to try and keep as much of my explosive spells in after 'boarding as possible in an attempt to overwhelm him. Once the window opens you jump right through it. Therefore, I think Igri is on to something about running more dredgers, probably in the side. Having two available is optimal when staring down Shaman. Putrid Imp is also an all-star in this scenario because controlled discard outlets are so valuable here. I'm not the biggest fan of firestorm but it does help against DRS.
What are people's thoughts on the new Dispel?
Swan Song
U
Instant
Counter target enchantment, instant or sorcery spell. It's controller puts a 2/2 Blue bird creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
My initial assessment is that it's flexible. Surgical can hit us pretty hard, and this is an out to that. More importantly, this hits Rest in Peace before it resolves and triggers. I know there was discussion about playing a copy of Stifle for the ETB trigger, and Swan Song seems strictly better in that situation.
Being flexible also means we don't have as much guesswork to do going into game 2. Because there's such varied hate for dredge, sometimes we can get surprised by someone's board plan. Swan Song can lower our chances of getting blown out game 2 in those situations.
Seems like it should be tested fosho. It does hit the two most heavily played hate cards. This card is better than people think.
I like it. It is a one mana Counter that does not hit Art, or critter. Art is a pain but as long as its not card, you can flash back Grudge. Its in colour too for all our lands. Looks ok.
I'll be straight with you, I didn't understand a word you wrote about artifacts. But the only artifact we don't beat by slow dredging, we can beat with claim or grudge (or my new favorite tech - ingot chewer). RiP is a Complete blowout most of the time, and Surgical can really fuck up our game if the opponent is smart. I'd consider them much higher priority targets than Relic/Crypt.
I meant to say cage. Have no idea how I typed card. Need to Reread my shit.
As long as the artifact in question is not Cage, I think we can use Grudge to force it to be cracked or otherwise delt with.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
Nature's Claim hits cage as well as enchantment hate. We also shouldn't cut anti-hate for it.
Like right now my board is
4 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Wispmare
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Coffin Purge/Cremate
I'll probably go +2 Swan Song -1 Needle -1 land for testing.
@birdbrains.
I don't believe Swan Song offers us what we want. For almost the same reason we play Tarnished Citadel over say Forbidden Orchard is the fact that it gives your opponent a creature. A 2/2 is still able to trade with a considerable amount of your threats which forces you into a precarious situation (You don't want to attack into it for fear of losing bridges). With the amount of creature removal available (Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Dismember, Liliana, Punishing Fire, Lavamancer.. etc.. ) in the format its not outrageous to think they can simply kill off their own creature at an opportune time and wreck your zombie plan.
If you really wanted a way to counter an enchantment on the stack then I would look to Annul which not only takes care of RIP, but has the added benefit of handling artifacts as well which encompasses a good amount of existing grave yard hate. This is all assuming you don't care about countering Sorceries or Instants.
In my experience Surgical Extraction isn't really an issue unless its seen in multiples (or Snapcaster). I know it can depend on a case by case basis and how effectively they choose to time it, however, plucking 4 cards out of your deck does not completely stop the engine. They want to hit various cards that impact the game - Bridges, Ichorid, Narcomoebas, Dredgers, Cabal Therapy - which they cannot do with a single source. If you really dislike the card you can always try Noxious Revival to fizzle the Surgical or even worse cards like Purify the Grave/Coffin Purge to exile your own copy and fizzle the Surgical before he/she hits all your copies. I wouldn't really recommend that strategy though.
Btw how is that SB treating you? ;)
I think I'm going to cut a needle for the Deals Open. I frequently find myself only boarding in 3 or fewer. I'm not sure if I want to squeeze in the last Claim or use it as a flex slot yet.
Ingot Chewer and Wispmare are sweet. They're very synergystic with the deck. Killing hate + getting a bridge trigger is really nice. Recycling them with Thug is so much value as well.
As far as Swan Song goes, I think it's at least worth testing. I think enough Game 2s start with the opponent dropping T1 Crypt/Relic in those matchups, so we wouldn't even have a mana open for Annul. We can slow dredge around them and have Needle as an additional out. Depending on the game state and matchup, a 2/2 flier isn't going to be as detrimental as getting the graveyard reset. We can just block it with Narcos and net zombies, or do something like return a couple Ichorids and pass the turn to develop our board. If Bridges are irrelevant and things get really desperate, Putrid Imp also trades with the bird.
If we would not have mana for Annul why would we have mana open for Swan Song? Or what am I missing here?Quote:
Originally Posted by birdbrains
Also, Putrid Imp isn't trading with Bird, since it can't block.
No, but the Swan can block meaning you miss out on damage every turn they leave their new token untapped. Spells that are reactive to the stack are so bad in dredge, just the same as all the other decks that don't want to leave mana open. Think about the window of opportunity that Swan Song is good compared to our typical answers - Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, Ancient Grudge, Wispare, Pithing Needle, etc. which can hit their target any time after it is in play.
The last time we tried to play a reactive spell was Coffin Purge when Surgical Extraction was released. That plan didn't work and we didn't even have to draw the Purge! I have very little faith in the new Swan Song here.
birdbrains: What are you siding Pithing Needle in against? Are people not diversifying their Crypts against you? I assume you're not bringing in Crypts and Claims against Tormod's Crypts.
I'm not playing any Firestorms or Darkblast, so it serves as anti-hate for Deathrite Shaman, as well as incidental hate on any other troublesome permanents (whether they're hate cards or not.)
went 4-2 at a local gaming store's tournament the other day. there was 30 plus people and I missed out on top 8 on breakers (finished 10th, shout out to my crew as 3 of us got top 16 and one of us was top 8) my match ups were
1: American Delver (0-2): I walk into counterspells game one and just can't get anything going, game two he drops a rest in peace :/
2: Scape Fit (2-1) He gets a game loss game one, has the perfect hand to beat me game two, and game three i draw the nut hand and flayer him.
3. AD Nauseum (0-2) He's simply just faster then me both games
4: Reanimator: (2-1) Game one he's at three life with elesh norn on board and a griselbrand... i attack him for seven with my golgari grave troll (which is a 9/9) he blocks it with elesh. He exhumes it on his turn not realizing that by exhuming i get Flayer and kill him lol. Game two he gets elesh norn on turn two. Game three I flayer him on turn two before he can get get elesh on the field.
5: U/R Delver: (2-0) I slow roll him both games playing around stifle/daze/spell pierce. His goblin guide eventually gets me to 8 but has revealed enough lands for me to hard cast an ichorid to dread return a flayer and begin bolting him every turn. Game two stick to DDD and therapy him before im about to go off and flayer him to see a hand full of useless counterspells. Therapy them away and zombies are too much for him.
6: Junk Depths: (2-1): He suprisingly gets marit lage on the field turn three after wasting my city of brass which would have allowed me to kill him quickly. Narcomeaba's chump block until i can flayer him. Game two he bogs me early (misplay) and gets two deathrite shamans going. Game three i draw the nuts, and flayer kill him turn two.
notes on the day
- Nether shadows were a boss. The only games i didnt bring them in for were against the combo match ups. Looking back they were the only cards i really sideboarded in throughout the day
- hate was relatively nonexistent, as there was combo everywhere in the room