anyone else thinking about testing http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/l...aryoftrest.jpg
it's blue, a decent hoser, and replaces itself vs most removal.
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anyone else thinking about testing http://mythicspoiler.com/cn2/cards/l...aryoftrest.jpg
it's blue, a decent hoser, and replaces itself vs most removal.
This card is not what BUG Delver wants. 3/3 for 3 mana that does nothing if you are behind, and maybe draws you a card when you are ahead is not what a tempo shell really wants to be doing. Baleful Strix is better for two mana and TNN is better for 3 mana. Hell, even Edric fits with the proactivity of the Delver deck better than this guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzle_grizzle
I completely agreed with you at first, but the more I read this card, the more intrigued I get. The first line of text is pretty darn awesome "Each Opponent can't draw more than one card each turn" - shuts down cantrips completely, shuts down sensei's divining top on your opponents turn, shuts down Jace brainstorming, and shuts down Griselbrand (but let's be honest, we'll be hard pressed just to deal with the 7/7 lifelink part).Quote:
Originally Posted by lucksack_delver_flip
The other text is pretty great too, especially when ahead on board. Spot removal, wasteland, rishadan port, maze of ith, punishing fire, thought-knot seer, jace bounce, and discard spells all net a card!
Heck, when you get tendrils and 9 copies targeting you, you get to draw 10 cards. Then bam, you hit Mindbreak Trap and get-em (this sentence is heavily sarcastic.... until I do it)
Maybe it is too cute (I am very guilty of loving those types of cards), but it is somewhat intriguing. I'm bound to at least try one out.
I'm basically at the same place with this guy. He really does walk a fine line between amazing and useless, and without testing I'm not sure I can properly evaluate this guy. I think a good starting point, though, is to compare him to the other common three drops in this deck, Vendilion Clique and True Name Nemesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by RStien321
Comparison wise, TNN and Clique share Leovold's power of 3, but each have a toughness of 1. This does mean Leovold is technically more durable, surviving disfigure, golgari charm, etc. However in most practical cases it doesn't matter. He has no evasion whereas Clique has flying and TNN has the strongest evasion in the game. Leovold can't trade with a Goyf, Gurmag Angler, Thought Knot seer, etc. and unlike the other options he can't poke damage in through massive ground threats. He does have the advantage of making targeting your stuff unprofitable, as everything becomes a 1 for 2 in your favor. It even makes sure Leovold replaces himself when removed. This still doesn't protect him as well as TNN's total protection. There is also, of course, Leovold's most disruptive clause. Screwing people out of card draw and cantripping is strong. It definitely gives the Leovold player the advantage in a long game, provided Leovold is protected.
I think in light of all that, he doesn't really belong in a tempo shell because he offers very little aggression compared to other relevant 3 drops and any card advantage he generates is dependent upon the opponent. I think where he shines is in a midrange or control shell. The non stifle build might be able to take advantage of him, but the controlling non delver lists are probably where he'll be best (and BUG NicFit). I'm going to give him a shot in my list and reevaluate from there.
My current SB:Quote:
Originally Posted by meffeo
2 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
2 Surgical
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dread of Night
1 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
2 Submerge
1 Zuran Orb
1 Flusterstorm
Currently playing the Mongoose version posted a couple pages above. So funny deck, althought DnT is an impossible matchup. I have to try playing vs Miracles, cause this deck is a Miracles-killer.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=105818
had anyone test this list?
I agree with this point, especially as it relates to the stifle build. I am playing a more midrange build of BUG delver with 20 lands and Hymn. I am going to try running one copy maindeck just to give it a test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblinoid_Redcap
Okay, time for a small event report. Tonight I went 3-1 at my local weekly event. It went pretty well, all things told, and I came in third over all. I've been running a classic version of the good old Hymn build. Here's my list:
Main:
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Spell Pierce
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Here are some notes about the current main and board. I have a Mire and an extra Tropical Island in there due to simply not prioritizing getting a Misty and a final Underground Sea. I'd like to get the mana base better some day, but I'm a little tight on funds at the moment. In regards to Tombstalker, I'm aware many lists are skipping out on him recently. Gurmag, Clique, and TNN are all good main board alternatives, but I just love a good old 5/5 flying beatstick. The Spell Pierce in the board should be a Flusterstorm, but I'm a cheap bastard. I plan to replace the Disfigure with a Darkblast soon.
With all that said and done, let's get into the games. I'm not 100% on memorizing every action, so the focus of this is more on how the games generally went in addition to how I sideboarded. I'm looking for advice more than anything.
Round 1: Vs Infect
Game 1: I win the roll and choose to play. I keep a decent start. I've got Daze, a Hymn, Dismember, a Ponder, and some lands. I fetch out an Underground Sea, put down the Delver and pass it to him. He goes for a turn 1 Hierarch and I opt to daze that. He decides to let that happen and it goes to the bin. I cast ponder and end up with an Abrupt Decay. Opponent drops an Inkmoth Nexus and passes. I cast out the Hymn and my opponent lets it pass. I get two pump spells and thank the heavens. He goes and plays down a blighted agent. I proceed to Decay that agent. He gets another Inkmoth and starts bashing me slowly. I eventually play out a Deathrite and Dismember one of the Blinkmoths, but I'm already at 8 poison. Luckily, I top deck a Tombstalker and throw it down. Cantripping into a Wasteland seals the game.
-1 Tombstalker
-1 Goyf
-1 Daze
-1 Force
+1 Dismember
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Golgari Charm
I wasn't too confident in my sideboarding here. I haven't had much practice with this matchup, so I just tried some stuff. In retrospect, I'm not sure it was the best to bring in Thoughtseize and Surgical.
Game 2: He had the nuts. He rushes out Hierarch, Hierarch, Inkmoth. I have a Deathrite Shaman and an Abrupt Decay. I spent some time slowing him down a bit, but it didn't help much in the end. He proceeds to swing with the nexus and give it Become Immense and Invigorate. That's just how it goes sometimes.
Game 3: This one was long, much longer than I expected. I manage to hold off every threat he plays with Abrupt Decays, Dismember, and Golgari Charm. The look on my opponent's face when I got a Glistener Elf and a Hierarch with the charm was one of utter despair. I get a Deathrite Shaman out and after killing a Blighted Agent and I having killed to Elves, I surgically extracted the Blighted agent. My opponent now has only 6 threats left in his deck. I keep whittling his life down with the Shaman and soon get 2 on board. He fails to ever find a threat for his hand of pumps and I take the game.
Round 2: Vs Zombardment
Game 1: I play against this guy quite regularly, so I know this matchup pretty well by now. He wins the roll and leads with an Inquisition of Kozilek. I show him a one land hand with 2 Tarmogoyfs, a Deathrite Shaman, and Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, a Ponder, and a land. He takes the Deathrite and I cry a little inside. Luckily, I top deck another land. I play the ponder and pass. He throws down a Bob. I elect to decay it on my turn. He plays down a Deathrite and I answer him with a Hymn. He casts down a Liliana of the Veil. I answer with a Tarmogoyf. He makes me sac it. Then I draw and pass. He makes me discard again, then plays down a second Lili making me discard again. With only a Tarmogoyf left in hand, I top deck an Abrupt Decay. Hallelujah. I kill the Lili and drop the Goyf. We're both empty handed at this point. I close out the game pretty quickly, landing a Delver the next turn while he struggles drawing lands and a Bitterblossom too late.
-4 Wasteland
-1 Daze
-1 Force of Will
+1 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Disfigure
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
He has enough basics in the deck to fetch around Wasteland pretty well, and Daze isn't the best on the draw. I also didn't feel like I needed a fourth Force of Will.
Game 2: He opens with Inquisition again and immediately wishes he had Cabal Therapy. I show him 3 Abrupt Decay, 2 Hymn to Tourach, a Sylvan Library, and a land. Risky keep of the day. Somehow I top deck land once more and this game proceeds to largely go in my favor. He plays Deathrite, I play Hymn. He plays Lotleth Troll, I decay it while he's tapped out. I draw lands all the way out to turn four, and for once it's the best thing. On turn four I drop the library and Decay his Shaman. I manage to finish the game out largely unmolested from there.
Round 3: Vs Grixis Delver
Game 1: I love this matchup. I love it a lot. I can outgrind Grixis all day, and it shows. I've never lost a match to this deck and I sure as hell wasn't feeling like doing it for the first time tonight. I win the roll and lead with a Deathrite Shaman. He follows up by bolting it. I didn't keep a Daze, so it goes through. The rest of this match plays out in a similar manner on both sides. We each try to play out threats, the other always answers it. Eventually though, I land a Tombstalker and my opponent fails to answer it. My wonderful flying friend carries me to victory on his glorious, leathery demon wings.
-2 Daze
-1 Force
-1 Goyf
+1 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Golgari Charm
TNN and Sylvan Library are perfect for outgrinding my opponent. Deluge and Golgari Charm are there to handle the inevitable shitstorm of annoying elementals.
Game 2: To be honest, I'm kind of blanking on how this one went down exactly. What I do remember is that it did not go well for me. He had answers and I flooded out. The game went to him.
-2 Force of Will
+1 Daze
+1 Goyf
Daze gets better again on the play, and Force is just pure card disadvantage.
Game 3: This one started off similar to the first game. I led with a Shaman. The Shaman was promptly bolted. This time I had daze, but so did my opponent. In the end my Shaman bit the dust once more. Good night sweet prince. The game essentially resets. I go to my next turn, drop a land with a Delver and pass. He drops a land and also plays a Delver. My Delver decides to be a bit testy and doesn't flip, but I do draw a Wasteland and promptly use it to destroy my opponent's land. My opponent responds by flipping his Delver and bashing me for 3. I Ponder. I see 2 Wastelands and a Tropical Island. I was about to shuffle it away, but I decided to keep it. I Decay his Delver and pass. He drops a land and ponders. I Waste it and hit for 1. He Gitaxian Probes me and sees his doom written in my hand. I proceed to win on the back of my Delver and his lack of mana.
Round 4: Vs Miracles (My reaction when)
Game 1: Despite the ubiquity of this deck, it is one of my least practiced matchups. This was only the third time I've faced it, and only the second with this deck. This game was long, grindy, and slow. As per the usual with miracles, he was able to deal with every threat I put down. Meanwhile I was able to deal with every threat he put down. Of course this grind was never even. Top gave him the usual edge, and he was amassing cards while I was in top deck mode. Eventually it came to me drawing lands and him desperately searching for threats. My hand has nothing but two Daze's staring me in the face with their uselessness. I must be in Utah cause I'm Salt Lake City at this point. He gets Counterbalance down, I draw an Abrupt Decay and a Delver. Stupidly, and a bit on tilt, I play the Delver right into the Counterbalance. I proceed to do the same thing with a Brainstorm the next turn. Not sure either would have actually mattered much, but it would have been nice if I'd at least have played smarter. I proceed to decay his counterbalance in desperation. Finally he gets down a Snapcaster and I'm all out of answers.
-4 Wasteland
-1 Force of Will
-1 Liliana
-1 Dismember
-1 Daze
+1 Winter Orb
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Sylvan Library
Wasteland always feels useless in this matchup. Lili always feels like the opposite of what I want to be doing. Daze is useless pretty quick, and Force of Will is card disadvantage. I mostly sided in correctly, but I think the surgicals were a mistake. They don't do enough and they are also pure card disadvantage. From now on I'll be keeping those for combo matchups only, where they belong.
Game 2: This one surprisingly went well. I lead with a Delver. He leads with a Brainstorm. I daze the brainstorm. My Delver flips. I swing for three. My opponent drops a top but no land. I play down a Winter Orb. He spins the top and concedes. This is by far the fastest game I've ever played against miracles.
-2 Daze
+1 Force
+1 Dismember
Daze is just not good against miracles on the draw, at least not in my limited experience.
Game 3: This one started out promising, but went to shit real quick. My opponent led with a Top. I played down a Delver. My opponent spends his turn cantripping. Delver fails to flip. I play Hymn and hit two Brainstorms, which was something I guess. My opponent proceeds to play a Monastery Mentor. I have no removal in hand. I flip my Delver and swing. My opponent swings back. I draw a Hymn and try to hit him again. It is countered by a Force of Will. He plays down a second Mentor. I am dying inside. Next turn he draws another Top and it all goes to shit. I'm dead very fast.
Overall, I had a pretty good time. I definitely need to work on my miracles matchup, though that deck is just kind of rough no matter what. I'd say my sideboarding skills need some work as well. I originally had planned to test Leovold, Emissary of Trest tonight, but I failed to find a copy. I guess I'll have to get some testing done with him later.
Hi guys, there's someone that still plays the deck?
After two weeks of serious playtesting, I get ready to go to the 3rd day of league with BUG Delver.
Someone want to discuss about the main matchups of actual meta?
Just curious why no Winter Orba in the maindeck. I think the random 1-of Liliana and Dismember could just be two Orb, giving us real game against non-Delver decks.
Example, Redcap's list posted above. Love the board as-is, though.
Personally my only 1x is Sylvan Library just because 2x in 60 cards of Tempo deck is wrong imho.
If I draw her, well, very good. If I don't draw her, is not a problem.
I don't want to search for a Sylvan. Never.
I play 2x Liliana main deck because imho is a great card and I don't like random Dismember.
I don't want to search for Liliana OR for Dismember.
Liliana is better than Dismember imho.
Well, i search for one of my 2 copies of Liliana.
I put 2x Winter Orb in side because i feel it in sense with the rest of the deck but i don't like it in main deck because i don't want no one deadly card in main deck.
Hi, i have been playing a BUG Delver list that i saw in Mtggoldfish and I just like it a lot. Today I played a 60 people tournament, ended 4-2. Here is the list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Go for the Throat
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Dread of Night
1st Round: 4 Color blade
Probably one of the best matchups, wasteland and stifles hurts him a lot. First game i won cause i could play more threaths. Second one, i destroyed his mana base and gg from there.
2-0 1-0 IN: +2 TS, +2 Painful, +2 Winter Orb; OUT: -4 FoW, -2 Dismember
2nd Round: Storm
First game i played a DRS and he cantripped a lot. I daze a ponder cause he only got 2 lands but he comboed me a turns after. I missplayed not eating a Infernal Tutor with DRS when he played Past in flames but he draw another with a flashbacked Probe so... I didnt use DRS cause i was holding Stifle (just no sense). Second game he didnt have anything useful and i hit him with Delver + DRS. Third game i played Delver again and he tried to combo knowing that i had a Surgical. He infernal tutored for Past in flames and played it with only 1 mana remained cause I Daze a dark ritual before. So he has only 1 petal and 1 infernal tutor, 2 dark rituals, 1 brainstorm and 1 probe as important cards. I extracted tutor. He casted probe and brainstorm from graveyard but didnt find anything and conceded. After the games he told me that I should extract rituals and he was probably right. I missplayed this match but this list is very good vs combo.
2-1 2-0 IN: +2 TS, +3 Surgical; OUT: -2 Dismember, -3 Abrupt Decay.
3rd Round: BUG Shardless
Nice guy, we keep talking the rest of the tournament and he ended 4-2 too. Both games were very easy for him. First game he TS me and discard a DRS so i went slowly and he got time to draw a lot of Ancestral cards and win. Second one he played 4 Hymn to tourach. I put him in 8 but not enough.
0-2 2-1 IN: +2 Disfigure, +2 Winter orb, +2 Painful, +1 Go for the throat. OUT: -4 FOW, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Ponder.
4th Round: Dregde
Both games i played a DRS. In the first game he played lot of lands but he couldnt get dregders at time. In the second i extracted Ichorid and then Narcomoebas.
2-0 3-1 IN: +2 Disfigure, +3 Surgical; OUT: -4 Stifle, -1 Vendilion clique
5th Round: Death and Taxes
My nemesis. Very hard (near to impossible) to win. He won me easy both games. The 1x Dread of night was useless cause it cant win you the game alone. You will need at least 2, so i think is better to play another thing in its place.
0-2 3-2 IN: +2 Disfigure, +1 Go for the throat, +2 pithing needle, +1 dread of night, +2 TS. OUT: -4 Stifle, -2 Spell pierce, -2 FoW
6th Round: Nic Fit
I was out of the top 8 and he (10 points) asked me if i concede. I answered to him that i prefer to play but thinking on concede if i win. Just want competitive games and the BUG Shardless guy was fighting too for entering the top, so...
First game was as expected. He cabal me, veteran, flashback and bye bye. Second and third ones i could stifle his veterans and fetchs and he didnt find more lands. I concede to him and he ended 9 lel.
2-1 4-2 IN: +2 TS, +2 Painful, +2 Winter orb. OUT: -4 Daze, -2 Spell pierce.
Well, i got some fun with the deck and i will play it more. Not sure about the SB at all. Having Gooses is very nice to the tempo play and this version really liked to me. However, i didnt face lands or miracles, so they didnt show all their potential. Please give me your comments and opinions and sorry my english. Bye!
That is basically a deck developed by the guys that host the legacy podcast The Brainstorm Show. They call it miracle slayer delver I think and if you go to their site they have a whole podcast dedicated to that deck, along with SB-maps and matchup advise etc. That should probably give you everything you need. :)
Thank you! What do you thing about it? Its very fun to play, just d&t feels miserableQuote:
Originally Posted by LarsLeif
It seems strong, but it is very metagamed against a specific field. Legacy is definetly a format where that can work well, or extremely bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by VERTUK
Imho is too much metagamized.
Obv vs miracle and combo is very good, but in a open metagame, when you find midrange and creatures decks, is not a right choice.
The "standard" Team America (BUG Delver) with Tarmo, is simply too solid than "Slayer".
By the way, imho is very funny to play vs control and combo!
So what about simply replacing Gooses with Tarmos? I top8'ed the last three events (~50 players each) playing almost exactly the same 75s (and tuning the sb) switching the green fellas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk
Hi Meffeo!
Imho with the split Tarmo/Goose, the deck goes more solid vs the actual meta.
Tarmo is simply too strong in this deck vs Eldrazi (5/6) and a good clock as always.
Said this, the choice Stifle vs Hymn to Tourach is simply attitude of the player.
I love to play each style (i have played RUG) but in this meta i like to play more aggressive threat like Hymn and Nemesis.
Stifle is better vs Miracle and Combo (maybe Shardless) and make your game Tempo.
Hymn is good vs other decks.
By the way, if today i want to play a Tempo BUG, well, i will play the exact yours 60's!
How you have set the 15's?
I shaved here and there and I came to the following conclusion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night probably not enough 'cause the D&T mu is pretty awful; that is why I added a
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Go for the Throat
1 Sylvan Library
1 Winter Orb
There are a lot of removals but I feel very confidant with my sideboard plan. Still figuring out whether switch to Grixis Noah Walker style or keep BUGging.
Hi Meffeo,
after 1/2 months of playing Grixis I've realize who Grixis is not a style i'm feel good.
2 months ago I've switch to Grixis because this archetype make a lot of top across the world, but I'm return on BUG and I'm at home. No doubt for me.
About your sideboard:
Dread of Night is not enough in 1x but we don't need cards vs only 1 archetype (or 2 if we find a Miracle with Mentor), reason to not play the 2x and add 1x Toxic Deluge.
By the way i like Golgari Charm, too versatile but not stronger like Dread of Night in the Death and Taxes specific matchup.
I love Golgari vs Grixis Pyromancer, Elves for example, of vs Merfolk is a good help.
In the last tournament (2 days ago - 5-0 and lost in final vs Merfoks) I've run Winter Orb in 2x, and this is a good choice.
Team America work very good with Winter Orb, and the Stifle Version optimize this card better than my version (with Hymn).
Why not 2?
You have a lot of removal.
Imho 2 Disfigure AND 2 Go for the Throat are too much.
I simply LOVE Null Rod, try to run 1 in one of this 4 slot, maybe you can feel so good with Rod.