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I got on the painful truths plan as soon as the card came out. That card should in the list somewhere. I would up the removal but from my history with this thread some ppl just prefer to jam bombs instead so I can at least understand the argument for less removal if you are just planning to go over the top.
So... I jumped the gun and cracked on turning my Timmy Nic Fit build into a regular Nic Fit list. I was thinking of running the following 60/75:
Main:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Fierce Empath
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
SB:
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
Now, I know - where's the SDT & Sylvan Library? Well, I did just come from a list that ran 3 GSZ, 2 Fierce Empath and 4(!) Diabolic Intent as fixers-of-shit. And that worked quite well. And now with 4 GSZ, 2 Diabolic Intent and 1 Fierce Empath as engine starters (and 2 Painful Truth for some digging power) for Courser, Meren and Karador (which, believe me, is nuts in the lategame. You're always sure to get at least 1 creature back before Karador hits the bin.) as CA engines I'm tempted to try a list without SDT & Library. Why durdle with enchantments/artifact when you can use stuff that also smashes face?
So... Any comments/tips..?
On a side note, an additional reason for me to keep playing Fierce Empath is the surprise factor. When GSZ'ing for X=5 or even 6, opponents are pretty sure to counter that when they can. Use Empath to tutor up Dromoka and just hardcast the bugger so you can utilize its "Can't be countered" clause.
And a second note: I really wanted to run a Tasigur in here somewhere as well (it's a CA engine/mana sink with a Rhino body that can be GSZ'd via Empath) but haven't the foggiest what to take out for it. And the list is heavy enough on legendaries as it is.
Echelon, I've always wanted to try karador, but never had the guts :) if only he had lifelink or something..
With diabolic intent I feel like you should versatile your answers a bit, no use having 4 path to exile when a counterbalance and top or a jace are staring at you. I'd cut 2 path, one for a decay and one for a vindicate/council's judgment/maelstrom pulse.
I'd cut one DRS for your tasigur, 4 shaman and 3 Drs is a lot. That said, when running eternal witness Meren and karador what are you exiling from your graveyard to cast tasigur? You're not playing can trips and you want to get back your removal spells and creatures... But for testing, yea I'd cut one DRS
I'd probably also try cutting another DRS for a Sakura tribe elder and see how that is because
a) the ramp is permanent (doesn't get deeded away like Drs does
b) it synergises really well with Meren and karador
c) you can still have a drs as part of the tool box for early ramp and GY hate
I'd also be tempted to cut a fetch for a volrath's stronghold, card does work.
And finally I'd also switch out the carpet of flowers for 2 ethersworn canonist and another card advantage card for the fair matchups.. Another painful truths or a walker or something.
My two pennies
Thank you for those beautiful pennies :smile:.
Yeah, the delve part of Tasigur combined with Witness/Meren/Karador is one of the reasons I hadn't put him in the initial build.
I agree with you on the diversification of removal bit - it's not that I have Elesh Norn/Emrakul/Griselbrand/Iona to fall back on anymore. You'd be surprised what those beasts let you get away with [insert awesome anecdotes].
Fetches, I'm not cutting. On account of initial manasources and all that. I'm at 15/14/14 for green/black/white respectively and would like to keep it that way. Losing games to color screw sucks the big one. If a land were to be replaced, it'd be the third basic Forest.
Concerning DRS/Sakura-Tribe Elder: One doesn't really play DRS for the ramping effect. When you get to use DRS for that effect, it's mostly just a bonus. Most often it's a nice lightning rod that attracts spotremoval that would otherwise threaten your bigger creatures. I get the Sakura-Tribe Elder bit, but I don't care all that much about the experience counters bit on Meren and after a single Vet/GSZ->Vet you'll have plenty of mana anyways. Vet does just as well in combat as the Tribe Elder - it's just there to die (yes, I know, cornercases with Jitte/Batterskull and whatnot). I'd rather save the mana to potentially cast something else.
On Meren/Karador in general: The entire reason those things are so great is that they give you extra cards to work with. Yes, it would be awesome if Meren'd return creatures directly to the battlefield, but it isn't a necessity. The fact that you get to pick up extra cards to cast again means you're pulling ahead anyway. Having creatures returned immediately to the battlefield absolutely is a wonderful thing, but not a goal to work towards. It's great when you get it to work, but regardless of whether it works or not you're pulling ahead of your opponent. Please don't forget that.
As far as the SB is concerned, you might have a good point there. Although, for the combo MU I do like to take out a couple of Vets since it isn't a great idea to give TES/ANT 2 free extra mana.
Oh hey, I love Meren, I'm already on that gravy train :)
Been trying GBW Stoneforge lists, GBW value lists, GBW go big (inspired by yours), GB planeswalkers (guys Ob Nixilis is strong and Garruk Wildspeaker is very under-appreciated) all with Meren.
Still not sure where I want to land.
Edit: my sideboard usually ends up like this
1 Rec Sage
1 over the top threat
2 surgical extraction
1 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2 Thoughtsieze
4 hymn to Tourach
2 golgari charm
Basically should be irrelevant if your combo opponent has extra mana they other won't have cards in hand, won't have the right cards in their deck or won't be able to cast more than one a turn
Double edit: Meren brought back a dragon lord dromoka that collided with a balefulstrix in testing against shardless today. Insanity.
So I have a few questions, haven't touched this deck for a couple months. I used to play a BUG version but I want to try something else, I've never liked the way blue takes over the deck by demanding a certain number of blue cards for FoW, and then having most of the good blue cards not being green which hurts GSZ and requiring double blue which really hurts the mana.
I've been looking at Arianrhod's list a couple pages back and I really like a lot of the things the list is doing but I have a few questions. I'm used to playing Pod and finding whatever I want whenever I want. I see that Baneslayer Angel is been the top end there. Is it really ok to have the biggest meanest thing in the deck not be a GSZ target?
Another question I have is in 2 drops. Why doesn't Voice of Resurgence make the cut? It seems like a great GSZ target, it's a powerful utility creature, and it synergizes well with reanimation and sacrifice.
Last, what have people thought of Nissa? Is she really great in the deck? I guess my main thought here is that I really like the Courser/Library/Top interaction and it feels to me like Nissa is taking away from an extra Courser, or is 2 Coursers all you really need? I suppose the same argument is true for Eternal Witness where I would rather get the higher quality 2 for 1 in exchange for not having the PW card advantage if it flips. Am I crazy to think this?
Your biggest threat is Sigarda, but I think with enough draw, having one top end off colour is alright. I'm not a huge fan, but he enjoys it, so fair enough.
I don't particularly like Nissa. I do love me some Eternal Witness, though.
-Matt
I would rather play ajani mentor over baneslayer but I'm just that guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Well... Scavenging Ooze is a thing. And being able to eat someone's graveyard can be incredibly important. Be it vs. Goyf.deck or various combo MU's. Ooze also lets you gain life, which is a big plus, and can become incredibly strong in the lategame (which you plan to play).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Scooze is so good I want to play 2 in almost every deck I have him in, be it Maverick, Junk, or Nic Fit. He's amazing.
-Matt
Looking at more lists it mainly seems to be an issue of the curve. In BUG lists you're usually running 10 2 drops with 4-5 of those being creatures. In junk I'm seeing fewer 2 drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Fewer two drops being Siege Rhino took up many of the smaller slots. Sometimes, you can solve a problem with a 4/5 trampling Lightning Helix. Or four of them.
-Matt
Well, let me give an example here's my creature curve in BUG:Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Frost Titan
1 - 4
2 - 4
3 - 3
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 1
Compared to what I'm looking at in Junk right now, though it's currently at 19 creatures so I probably need to find a cut (likely the Voice) unless I go with the 61 card plan.-
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
I've noticed the curve in Junk seems to be a bit less important. You're hoping to ramp from 1 to 3 or 4 so there's less of a need for 2 drops in the first place. BUG on the other hand (atleast the Pod builds) needed more 2 drops because the 2-3 pod is your most important jump. I may just drop the Voice and go with a second Eternal Witness anyways, I've never actually used Voice in Legacy so I don't know how good it is. It has always been solid in Modern though.
I'd probably run Baneslayers if I had to pick. Absolutely demolish delver decks if they stay on the table. But if we're talking Christmasland, why not Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Ouch. I'm saying the ajani doesn't get swords'so and is less white intensive. I understand it is strong. I have played ajani and he is a threat for certain. He turns Drs into 4/5 or draws you more threats. That's just my perogative. I do not think its christmasland and I disagree with playing arch feeder combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Here's what I'm thinking right now, it's 61 cards. Does this seem ok or is the land count too low? I've never had a problem with 21 in BUG builds, but those have Strix and Brainstorm to smooth things out.
Land 21
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
Spells 13
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
Enchantment 5
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare
Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top
I run 22 lands in 61 and it's generally perfect.
-Matt
Hello everyone, this is my first forum post and I hope it isn't too long. I've been an avid death'n'taxes and maverick player for the past couple years, and with a recent move to San Francisco I have decided to pick up / brew a new deck. After exploring the benefits of veteran explorer and doing my fair share of research on the deck, I decided to sleeve up a 15card proxy run-of-the mill bg nic-fit deck and see what it was capable of. I loved it, and in turn have decided to experiment with it.
*notes*
my local meta consists of about 16-20 usuals with a handful of new faces every week. there is an even distribution of fair decks with a large portion of delver players. This one guy plays tin fins and wrecks face every week. There is a 15 card proxy so testing things like tabernacle won't be an issue.
*I present to you: Nine Bullets*
LANDS
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
Meat and Potatoes
4 Living Wish
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
Gravy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
The Nine
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Shriekmaw
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda Host of Herons
1 Acidic Slime
1 Gaddock Teeg
The Sideboard
9 more silver bullets to be built in the future
4 (playset) tech vs my worst matchups
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
Despite being cuter than a baby goat my first Nic-Fit adaptation has taught me quite a lot about what I need, what I want, and what I deserve.
*Nine mainboard dedicated bullets is a bit much with 4 living wish to go grab 9 other bullets, most of which are mainboard.
*Id like to cut the mainboard bullets for more card advantage. Which this deck is seriously lacking. perhaps along the lines of graveyard recursion with meren, lil' value dudes, and reccuring nightmare. I could also look to Captain Sisay, as I've played her in maverick and she was a surprisingly amazing engine (albeit it was paired with mother of runes and didnt have to worry about its targets being deeded)
Nonetheless the wide array of narrow answers really isnt doing it when someone hymn's you then counters your zenith only to leave me drawing nothing of potential long term value.
I got back shriekmaw with meren in one game and it was pretty satisfying. Although I came to realize my graveyard is a pretty cold zone in this version of Nic Fit with meren being the only real recursion engine. :(
Cards I loved
Vexing Shusher was stupidly impressive during my blue match-ups, and while susceptible to removal, really helps me get a foot in the door versus counter heavy decks.
Chalice of the Void helps me with the dreaded combo match-ups. I truly enjoy this card, but I am also open to suggestions on better alternatives.
Cards I think should go
Elspeth Knight Errant seems lackluster compared to the gw adjani. Better buffs usually and more card-advantage. I think I'll swap them.
If you guys have any suggestions about the faults or strengths of the deck let me know what y'all think. I believe I addressed many of the weak points of the deck, however if anything else stands out to you please let me know. This thread has helped me out more than you can imagine, and I'd like to contribute more.
by the way sdematt I love what you have to say.
I appreciate innovation but chalice in a nic fit deck is a certified nonbo. This would be another kind of deck altogether. Not to mention. Without sol lands, no t1 chalice dreams can be made unless you t1 tower esg exile vet but that is next level.
I've used Chalice in BUG builds where it's been solid as a Trinket Mage option, not for anti combo but just as a disruption piece, at 1 or 2 even on turn 3 or 4 it really disrupts a lot of decks, while missing most of what's in this one. I would never run 4 in a deck like this though, it just cuts way too much into your tutor package.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio