[DTB] Vial Goblins

Mogg Fanatic is dead. You heard it here first. Cut them all if you haven't already. The rules change makes Fanatic awful.

Skirk Prospector, while still probably not worth a slot, is now superior. It got better with the new rules (You can sacrifice it with no drawback if you want to hose Ichorid, for example), while Fanatic got far worse.

Siege-Gang just got a little weaker too, but probably not enough so to warrant any drastic changes. You just now have to throw the blocked guy before combat damage, making swinging through 3 and 4 toughness guys a little harder.

My current first test list, post Fanatic-raping:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Auntie's Hovel
5 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Frogtosser Banneret
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Siege-Gang Commander

Also note that I'll be testing Tarfire out as well.

Yeah I agree tacosnape. Fanatic is nerfing is really bad, i have some suggestion over ur new build.

-1 gempalm
-1 sgc

+2 earwig

cos if u are running 4x frogger, the speed of the squad will be much faster.
I know u may not like wort but worth a try here.

Just my 2 cents worth of advice, cheers : )

Mogg Fanatic got a lot worse, that sucks. On the flipside, Port got a little better with pools emptying at the end of steps.

Another possible replacement could be Knucklebone Witch who seems decent with Mogg War Marshall and Stingscourger. It's not unlikely to become 3/3 or something pretty quickly.

Yeah, that plain suck.
uess will change Fanatics for Prospector, once they can also remove Bridge From Below, acelerate some cards, and do tricks with Sharpshooter aswell.

Although Fanatic is much, much weaker with this change, does it still warrent some slots?

It still kills Birds, Ichorids, Bridges from Below, and random dudes like Mother of Runes and occasional Kird Apes and stuff. It's no where near as good as it was a day ago, but it might be better than some of the other options being suggested for it's spot.

Okay, let's look at this for a minute.

Point 1. Mogg Fanatic is awful now. It's a bad removal spell and a bad threat, and it can't even do much sneaky crap anymore. It can no longer take out anything with toughness 2.

Point 2. In RB Goblins, Port is also awful despite the minor rule tweak, due to Frogtosser, and due to the fact that the 2cc slot, once the most empty point of Goblins, is now the most full. This was a large part of where Port got its usefulness. Old Goblin builds' 2-drops were Piledriver and cycling a Gempalm, and that was it. Now we've got Warren Weirding and Frogtosser Banneret too. Plus, we don't like colorless when we've got 7-8 cost reducers maindeck.

Point 3. This leaves us with only 8 1-drops in the deck; 4 Lackey, 4 Vial.

So our options are:

-Run the deck with only 8 1-drops, hoping to curve out better on turn three and four by having the Frogtossers, and mulliganing aggressively.

-Run another 1-drop that's a Goblin, which will be weak, but synergistic.

-Run another 1-drop that isn't a Goblin, which will be stronger, but make Ringleader weaker.

So far, the best I've come up with are as follows:

1. Not running another 1-drop. This oddly seems like the best plan to me, though my brain is screaming at the concept of having so little to do on turn one.

2. Thoughtseize/Therapy. God, I hate this idea, but I concede it may be one of the best ideas out there.

3. Tarfire. It's Shock. But it's also a Goblin. But it's also Shock. Lightning Bolt might be better.

4. Goblin Taskmaster. Didn't really know this guy existed, but the pumping threat could make him vaguely playable as a 2-3 of. He's probably awful, but he might be a hair more intriguing than Knucklebone Witch.

5. Relic of Progenitus. Yawn. This barely makes my sideboard.

6. Forgotten Cave. Cycling this thing would actually count as a 1-drop, as would playing it tapped. It's such a god awful topdeck, though.

7. Knucklebone Witch. On a good day, it'll get to 2/2. Decent with Stingscourger as mentioned, but still. Sigh.

8. Goblin Vandal. Artifact removal Goblins that suck against Jitte. Yeah. I'm so on board.

9. Goblin Sledder. Sacrificing all your Goblins actually gets worse when you can't stack combat damage. He's as nerfed as Fanatic.

10. Skirk Prospector. Sacrificing all your Goblins is still a bad idea. Also, you can't do the 3 goblins-equals-a-shock trick with Siege Gang and combat damage on the stack anymore.

11. Snuff Out. At least it's free.

So yeah. I'll be testing.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

5. Relic of Progenitus. Yawn. This barely makes my sideboard.

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? Thought you liked it.

The Prospector, Witch, and Forgotten Cave I guess are the best replacements.
Cave is not that bad as Topdeck, once in cantrips for R.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

5. Relic of Progenitus. Yawn. This barely makes my sideboard.

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Wait, what? Hosing Goyfs and Ichroid decks in the form of a cantrip (it replaces itself) is a bad thing? Plus, it's a one-drop?

Wut wut? Explain in greater detail please. Or don't, since I play tempo thresh and it makes me feel better that one less person is running Relic of Shrink-Gofy. :smile:

I don't like it maindeck. And after a lot of playing, I'm iffy about it against Goyf, especially given that I don't have Mogg Fanatic helping. And against Ichorid, Crypt and Leyline are better. The advantage of Relic is that it does cantrip and it's incredibly versatile, which is why it's still my yard hate of choice. Relic's much better when you aren't running black, though.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Okay, let's look at this for a minute.

Point 1. Mogg Fanatic is awful now. It's a bad removal spell and a bad threat, and it can't even do much sneaky crap anymore. It can no longer take out anything with toughness 2.

Point 2. In RB Goblins, Port is also awful despite the minor rule tweak, due to Frogtosser, and due to the fact that the 2cc slot, once the most empty point of Goblins, is now the most full. This was a large part of where Port got its usefulness. Old Goblin builds' 2-drops were Piledriver and cycling a Gempalm, and that was it. Now we've got Warren Weirding and Frogtosser Banneret too. Plus, we don't like colorless when we've got 7-8 cost reducers maindeck.

Point 3. This leaves us with only 8 1-drops in the deck; 4 Lackey, 4 Vial.

So our options are:

-Run the deck with only 8 1-drops, hoping to curve out better on turn three and four by having the Frogtossers, and mulliganing aggressively.

-Run another 1-drop that's a Goblin, which will be weak, but synergistic.

-Run another 1-drop that isn't a Goblin, which will be stronger, but make Ringleader weaker.

So far, the best I've come up with are as follows:

3. Tarfire. It's Shock. But it's also a Goblin. But it's also Shock. Lightning Bolt might be better.

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To me Tarfire sounds like the best solution. If you are taking Mogg Fanatics out of your deck and looking to replace them with something, functionality is very important. Not only do you want a one-drop in this spot, for purposes of synergy, but you want something that performs similar functions to what you are taking out.

Mogg Fanatic was most important as a removal spell. The possibility of two-for-one trades is what put the card over the top, but it was also used to take out dangerous x/1 creatures, even in one-for-one situations. Mogg Fanatic also could help clear the way for Lackey. Connecting with Lackey is a huge part of what makes Goblins playable in this format.

Tarfire can clear a path for Lackey and take care of any x/1 or x/2 creatures. It even takes care of some things that Fanatic could not. If you opt for a non-removal spell to replace Fanatic, then you will make it more difficult on yourself to cheat in expensive goblins early.

..but..but...it's SHOCK.(sigh)

I'm testing Nameless Inversion at the moment. I've been playing Goblins most of the day, determined to solve this. Nameless Inversion, while not a 1-drop, is interesting for several reasons.

First off, it gives me more 2CC spells that function as removal. This keeps jumping my Lackey count. It's also a more permanent removal than Stingscourger, though Scourger still might be the better choice.

Inversion also actually swings me to liking Wort, Boggart Auntie. There's now a ton of 2-drops to sit there and recur.

I'm also going to test Stingscourger. Then Tarfire after that.

Actually, you got a point there.
Too bad Tartfire can't attack, pump piledriver/Gempalm, make 2 for 1's, vialed in...
And what can Nameless inversion kill that Tartfire can't (obviously we're talking Rb here).

In RB isn't Gempalm Incinerator the obvious replacement for Mogg Fanatic?! We are already running 4 x Warren Weirding. It cantrips, is uncounterable and can kill your own guys versus Ichorid... something that Warren Weirding can't do.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

In RB isn't Gempalm Incinerator the obvious replacement for Mogg Fanatic?! We are already running 4 x Warren Weirding. It cantrips, is uncounterable and can kill your own guys versus Ichorid... something that Warren Weirding can't do.

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If we are going by Tacosnape's list at the top of the page, you will notice that he is already running 4 Weirdings and 3 Gempalms. I think I would probably prefer to run the fourth Gempalm over a Nameless Inversion or Tarfire.

Gempalm can be great in the mid-game, and the late-game, but often won't be what you need in the early-game. For example, if you have a Lackey on board ready to swing on turn two, Gempalm can only deal one damage to their blocker, whereas Tarfire, Nameless, or Weirding will probably get it off the board.

As for the debate about which is better, Tarfire or Nameless, it depends on the meta I guess. If there is a lot of zoo, you'd probably rather have Nameless to take out Kird Apes and Wild Nacatl. Otherwise, the cheapness of Tarfire looks better.

Nameless Inversion will usually get a turn two Tarmogoyf out of the way of a Lackey, also. Tarfire isn't always so lucky.

Gempalm is actually where I lean. It's removal and actually draws you the card, which helps a lot sometimes. It's also an actual beater if need be. Same can be said about Stingscourger. While he doesn't draw the card, he's better at pushing a Lackey through and gets the benefit of coming out for one mana with a Frogtosser out. I greatly wish Stingscourger could hit your own shit, but c'est la vie.

I think I'm more concerned about what happens if we don't have a Lackey or Vial. Aggressively mulliganing for essentially a one in eight shot doesn't sound like my favorite kind of proposition.

It's worth noting about Tarfire that if Goblins doesn't have Fanatic, we have almost zero reliable answers to a turn one Goblin Lackey. Our own Lackey is it, and it dies to Gempalm. The mirror will still happen on occasion. Tarfire will actually kill this Lackey.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Nameless Inversion will usually get a turn two Tarmogoyf out of the way of a Lackey, also. Tarfire isn't always so lucky.

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Actually Tarfire will never be lucky enough to kill a Goyf. It's an Instant and Tribal, meaning Goyf will always be at least a 2/3 if you shoot it with Tarfire

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Originally Posted by Jason

Actually Tarfire will never be lucky enough to kill a Goyf. It's an Instant and Tribal, meaning Goyf will always be at least a 2/3 if you shoot it with Tarfire

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Ah yes. Stupid Tribal. Makes Nameless Inversion a lot less likely too.

I'm seriously leaning towards just running the 8 1-drops and mulliganing more aggressively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Ah yes. Stupid Tribal. Makes Nameless Inversion a lot less likely too.

I'm seriously leaning towards just running the 8 1-drops and mulliganing more aggressively.

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I've been doing this for a while. It seems to work just fine. It's not like you kept hands on the strength of Mogg Fanatic alone previously anyways, so little changes with that regard.

Removing a one drop creature will make the Vial curve go really bad. We'll have almost nothing to drop @ 1 and 2 counters.

I'm currently testing a singleton Fanatic. That's what I used in a previous tournament anyway. I agree with Goblins weakening due to the combat damage rules change, and I'm curious to see how this will affect our card choices. The Fanatic replacements (Tarfire, Nameless Inversion, etc) seem intriguing.