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I like it a lot, but Determinad doesn't affect Stifle or Trickbind that is a must in Dreadnought decks. And doesn't stop other combo decks. It's great vs Counterbalance but worse vs everything else.
And I think that the Split Card has CC of 7 because you must count both sides of the card. This is a lot of damage if you draw it with AdN.
nono I mean only to splash Green, I don't like AdN at all
anyway yes, the problem would be with Stifle/Trickbind...
The real problem would be that Determined does nothing against Storm Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
1) Determined isn't going to do shit against Counterbalance because that's well within their expected curve to counter.
2) Countering Stifle/Trickbind is irrelevant.
3) Not liking Ad Nauseam isn't reason enough to not test it.
4) Bahamuth is right. The fact that it does nothing against Storm Combo is a big deal.
I've never liked Determined. It's always been terrible for me in testing. Why would you play it now? It just doesn't make sense.
Deep6er is right here... determined is terrible against counterbalance...
If you want a substitute for orim's chant that cantrips, play abeyance: it stops storm combo also (neither abeyance not detemined aren't going to do nothing against a counterbalance with their 2 CC)
@Deeper :
Well I think that the fact you want a 3 turn kill and once you get it you only will decrease the possibilities of facing a C.B on 3rd turn but honestly this problem yet stays in
I recognize pact is as useless as orims referring to handle c.b but Pact is a little less worse because you can pay the required mana costs on your upkeep helped by rituals, tides , etc, its an oddysee but .. -less useless- as I said
another card I've tested in this place is Snare which is not as bad option..
the third wish I recognize its slow if we want a 3 turn win but Wish is the only way to handle those fuc*** c.b...
Another point I said is that We NEED the opts I think its a must to play in a deck with 18 lands at least 8 cantrips cost 1 and M.Tutor is not one too many mulligans ..
Respect A.N I really think we are not going to have this card longer in Legacy , but by the moment we'll enjoy it, and 'maybe' it won't become banned.
Is the fact that there's a six in my name really that hard to remember? I mean hell, I generally try to spell your name correctly.
Also, I can't actually understand what you're trying to say.
If you could clarify your first sentence, that would be great. I think I get the rest of it, but that first part is boggling me.
Just to clarify things, but it's highly unlikely you'll be able to pay Pact's cost on your upkeep. Especially on two lands. Since you can't cast Reset and all. If you have three lands then any other counter would be better.
I've never been impressed by Spell Snare, and it's of limited usefulness against the newer Ad Nauseam Storm Combo decks (that only play a handful of cards at the two slot that you want to counter).
What you're failing to understand is that a faster win can actually deal with Counterbalance. If you can win before they drop a Counterbalance, you've dealt with it. What I'm trying to propose is finding the fastest, most consistent list and then working on disruption using that as a base. I don't like Mystical Tutor at all. I think the card is awful. However, it's one of the few consistent ways of finding High Tide. Until I find something better, it's looking necessary (for fast wins).
It's difficult to tell if Ad Nauseam will be banned. The card doesn't actually strengthen the Threshold match for any of the Storm Combo decks (as they're going just as "all in" on Ad Nauseam as they did on Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish), and it's applicability outside of Storm Combo is generally broad. Which is what they want. The card could definitely fit into a tweaked build of Landstill, and I've been considering tweaking It's the Fear to fit it in.
The fact that the card is powerful is worrisome, yes, but not an indication on it's banning. It's better to plan for it NOT to get banned, rather than planning/hoping it will get banned.
I've been testing more and more the classic version and I found that cryptic command is just too slow... against aggro decks is useless, against counterbalance is realy slow (you need 5 lands in play to avoid daze and even then they have the Fows...) and against chalice, echoing truth is just better... so brainstorming I recall middle the mixture, and I realy like the idea:
1 - Against aggro is just dead like the command (but you can transmute the turn before comboing to find reset, flash or freeze if you need it and can counter a devastating dreams or something like this that can ruin your day)
2 - Against chalice, you can transmute in the third turn and bounce in the 4th like the command, but with the difference that you can go for the combo the same turn as you only have spent 2 mana...
3 - Against counterbalance... well, you just can do nothing without the commands...
4 - Against counters in general is better, because is a hard counterspell for 2 mana, not 4.
5 - AND against storm combo or Ad Nauseam combo is gold (if you reach 2 lands of course...)
The major downside is that transmute is a sorcery-like ability so you must transmute before comboing, but at least is a counter if you draw it during the combo...
I'd suggest -2 cryptic command, -1 opt (I play 4, if you play peek, then -1 peek) ---->+2 middle the mixture, +1 echoing truth
Edit: Ohhh, and why not?? If we cut cryptic command, loosing to counterbalance... we can just play vedalken shackles in the SB: it costs 3 (dodging the CB) and who in the world would be expecting that in teh 2nd match??
After some more testing, I am actually digging Cryptic Command a lot because against the deck beating you down that has FoW and Daze (Threshhold, fishesque, and?) there clock is not as fast as dedicated aggro. NOW, if you are playing against a goyf sligh or something I would be much more concerned by their REB's and then toast your face then I ever would about having cryptic command get countered.
So against UGR Thresh and Rx Beatz I would side them out. Against UGW, UGB, Hanni Fish (If anyone still plays that), Tritons Minions, etc. I would leave it in.
The only fucking reason Van Phanel plays Cryptic Command is fighting Counterbalance. If there's no Counterbalance in your meta, don't play it.Quote:
3 - Against counterbalance... well, you just can do nothing without the commands...
You need four lands in play to avoid Daze and even then they've got 4 Force of Will. Pretty much your own words, right? :)Quote:
we can just play vedalken shackles in the SB: it costs 3 (dodging the CB) and who in the world would be expecting that in teh 2nd match??
And what the hell is the "more classic version"? There are two slots we consider loose (Cryptic Command, Twin Cast, Think Twice, Spell Snare, you name it). Unlike MUC, there aren't two schools of Solidarity.
I said "classic version" to avoid confusion with the Ad Nauseam version everyone seems to be testing...:wink:
I see counterbalances in my meta, but not as frequently to dedicate 2 slots from my MD, so I was searching for alternatives... what would you play in a meta full with dragon stompy, eva green, dreadstill and belcher??
Edit: And yes, I know this is not the best meta to play the deck, but is not all my meta, only the hard MU's
Shackles don't help against Counterbalance. At all. You can steal their 3/4 Goyf and try to win with it while they have CB in play. Good luck with that plan. It might even work sometimes. But how do Shackles help against Nimble Monggose (or Dreadnought)?
You do have the time to get up to five lands against Threshold playing Counterbalance. Also if you know you'll be low on mana, bait their Daze. You have Remand, Impulse and Cunning Wish to do so. Being able to read your opponent is huge here, because sometimes they don't even draw Daze.
@zinch: For your problem-matchups, Command seems custommade. It helps against Dreadstill, is great against Dragon Stompy (which is far from a problem-matchup) as additional answer to Chalice/ 3nisphere and is great against any Deck with discard as well as it can counter a midgame disruption spell and help you get back into the game.
Edit: @shimster: Seems like we have the same user title. Oops. I'll try to think of something new when I have time.
You know, I'd recommend my old one: "Hold on. I have a response." It was rather fitting for me, but I think it would be better for you.
Anyway, has anyone besides me tested Ad Nauseam? I'm really curious if anyone has found other builds besides the one I posted.
4 High TideQuote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
4 Bubbling Muck
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
4 Dream's Grip
3 Ideas unbound
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 merchant scroll
1 B.Freeze
1 Turn About
4 Pact of negation
4 Ad Nauseam
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
4 Underground Sea
This is the deck I've been trying with a turn 3 kill quite consistent buut, this is not Solidarity this is more like Springtide
If you're going to play Spring Tide, Candelabra of Tawnos is a much more efficient untap engine (when combined with Mind Over Matter it's insane, but probably not necessary if you play either Dream's Grip or Toils of Night and Day) that doesn't leave you open to creature removal.
A little offtopic, but Candelabra it's only more efficient with four or more islands in play and I think that the idea was 3rd turn kill.
With 3 islands + Candelabra on the board:
Candelabra + Dream's Grip = 4 mana to untap 3 islands
Candelabra + Toils = 6 mana to untap 1+3 islands
In any case:
Turnabout = 4 mana to untap 3 islands.
Cloud or Snap = 2 mana to untap 2 islands.
Creature removal would counter yours Snaps, but in my testing I almost always win without cast any Snap, and use it for my FOWs. It's an emergency untapper, but you usually win without it.
Respect Pelikanudo's list I think that Fow will be better that Pacts because you can FOW CB, Chalice, or any other 2nd turn card, but you can't with Pacts.
It's clear that Fow is a thousand times better than pact in every deck but the one they are testing. 4 FoW are a lot of life if you play one Ad Nauseam. But definetly, I think that spring tide has enough draw, Ad Nauseam is redundant (I doubt AN is better than Ides unbound or meditate) its weakness are others...
P.S.: SOrry for the offtopic... If you want to discuss the last dek posted, the place is the Spring Tide thread
:eek: I don't see the AdNauseam.
AdNauseam + Fow = :cry:
Can anybody give me a nice list atm?(mono blue :P)
thanks, Maarten
I am currently playing Van Phanels list (apart from Impulse and fetchlands, everything's foiled out by now):
// Lands
12 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
// Spells
2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 Cryptic Command
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
3 Opt
1 Peek
3 Remand
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
// Sideboard
1 Brain Freeze
3 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Twincast
2 Wipe Away
Counterbalance is by far the best choice in an evolved metagame. I played Spell Snare at first, but never looked back.