[Deck] Merfolk

Nightmare, as you can see there has been much debate on splash vs. non-splash in merfolk, could you write some larger post on the pro's and cons of either, and why you think white splash is better than just mono-blue, matchup by matchup?

I'm a strong believer in mono-blue, and it is definitely better in my metagame where Tempo decks and Stifles are running rampant, so I would stand behind not using fetches vehemently. You're one of the more wise players on this forum, and can actually use words to describe your points well. I would love to hear a well thought out, logic-based reason for why it is better to screw with the manabase for some spot removal.

I've seen that Stifle has come out of your version as well. I would never do this myself, as I think the card is the best protection/disruption for merfolk that has ever been printed (see my larger post a few pages back if you want the logic behind that). Do you dislike Stifle? I just really can't imagine a reason good enough for not using it. Even against Zoo I would say it's one of the best cards, as messing with their manabase wins many games.

I'm not going to say either way is right, or that either way is going to be better against an unknown metagame, but I've got to imagine that you're doing something right at least against a more aggro-based meta, and would enjoy hearing why.

And it would be damn good to hear some real logic in people's decisions, as this thread has always been quite low on it.

Alex, with nearly the exact list as before top 16d at the philly 5k this weekend. It seems that his unconventional list (im looking at you pithing needle) is worth looking into

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Nightmare, as you can see there has been much debate on splash vs. non-splash in merfolk, could you write some larger post on the pro's and cons of either, and why you think white splash is better than just mono-blue, matchup by matchup?

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I'd really like to, if it weren't for the fact that my computer is crashing as we speak. I may get a chance to piece some things together, or I may not. I'll try.

I just got 18th at the Philly 5k (yeah, no way to prove it since they only post t16) with this list:

Lands:
4x Island
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland

Creatures:
4x Cosi's Trickster
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Standstill
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

SB:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Stifle
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
3x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Propaganda

Actually, I'm glad I didn't make t16 because I think this list was terrible (white splash and Trickster were all last second changes) and I don't want people seeing it. I guess I did so well because of my actual play skill? :wink:

So I learned Cosi's Trickster doesn't help against our bad MUs, but is actually amazing against our good MUs. He got bolted immediately by Zoo (I guess it redirects a Bolt away from a lord?), he got to 6/6 against Countertop, he made Thresh never shuffle with Ponder. I'm not sure how I feel about Trickster because I started off hating him but then started to like him after playing against Countertop and Thresh.

I love the white splash for one reason: StP. Actually, I started thinking... if you play Trickster with white, you could probably get away with Path to Exile. I want to actually test this some time. Also, the CoPs were supposed to be Absolute Law but I couldn't get any in time, and I'm also thinking about putting in Sygg.

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Originally Posted by dyzzy

I just got 18th at the Philly 5k (yeah, no way to prove it since they only post t16) with this list:

Lands:
4x Island
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland

Creatures:
4x Cosi's Trickster
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Reejerey

Spells:
4x Aether Vial
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Standstill
4x Daze
4x Force of Will

SB:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Stifle
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
3x Circle of Protection: Red
2x Propaganda

Actually, I'm glad I didn't make t16 because I think this list was terrible (white splash and Trickster were all last second changes) and I don't want people seeing it. I guess I did so well because of my actual play skill? :wink:

So I learned Cosi's Trickster doesn't help against our bad MUs, but is actually amazing against our good MUs. He got bolted immediately by Zoo (I guess it redirects a Bolt away from a lord?), he got to 6/6 against Countertop, he made Thresh never shuffle with Ponder. I'm not sure how I feel about Trickster because I started off hating him but then started to like him after playing against Countertop and Thresh.

I love the white splash for one reason: StP. Actually, I started thinking... if you play Trickster with white, you could probably get away with Path to Exile. I want to actually test this some time. Also, the CoPs were supposed to be Absolute Law but I couldn't get any in time, and I'm also thinking about putting in Sygg.

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You're right. CT only improves good matches, but does squat for the poor ones. I think Wake Thrasher does better in the good matchups than CT, as CT can be a 1/1 against random decks, while Thrasher has a little bit of a chance. Both die to most removal though.

EDIT: Nevermind, I can't read.

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Originally Posted by chokin

You're right. CT only improves good matches, but does squat for the poor ones. I think Wake Thrasher does better in the good matchups than CT, as CT can be a 1/1 against random decks, while Thrasher has a little bit of a chance. Both die to most removal though.

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All creatures in this deck tend to die to most forms of removal, and honestly that's one of our bigger weaknesses. This is one reason I'm starting to really like Kira again, at least in theory, and it's also why I don't like to play less than eighteen maindeck creatures up in this deck right hyuh.

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Originally Posted by dyzzy

Actually, I started thinking... if you play Trickster with white, you could probably get away with Path to Exile.

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This deck is controllish enough to mitigate any perception of drawback that STP has. And Wasteland + Path to Exile in the same deck=silly. In general, I think your deck is trying to accomplish too much, dyzzy. But there is no arguing with a decent finish. Will you write us a mini report?

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Originally Posted by Finn

And Wasteland + Path to Exile in the same deck=silly.

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I disagree.

More fuel for the expansive Nightmare Merfolk (maybe) Article.

Ok, so there's been a lot of 'goyf talk and why he makes splashing green worth it. I'd just like to re-mention that damage from fetchlands is a *huge* deal in the zoo match-up, which is the one we're looking to improve. Damage from fetchland, and not weakness of the manabase or the danger of stifle, are the main reason I *don't* splash.

I'm still a big advocate of Threads. Even if they do manage to kill it with a) krosan grip, then you've essentially echoing truthed their Goyf for a turn, or b) pridemage, then you've removed one of their creatures. Plus, do they *really* bring in Grip to deal only with Threads + Vial? Maybe... They certainly don't have it game 1 (if you mainboard threads).

Threads is on color, which means no pain from fetchlands. It acts as removal for the creatures we care about, namely lavamancer, goyf, and dreadnought (though admittedly not tombstalker), it 2-1's most of the time and provides a huge tempo swing, and it really fits the aggro strategy of the deck, and where it doesn't, it at least pitches to FoW. Most importantly, it's a house in the Zoo matchup.

Are the T16 results of Philly already posted somewhere? If so, link me pls. Are there any other big results of post-zen release tournaments somewhere?

In that case, Adam. Lemme be clear on the issue.

Path to Exile in any Legacy deck with fewer than 4 Swords to Plowshares is silly. This includes Zoo.

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Originally Posted by tivadar

Ok, so there's been a lot of 'goyf talk and why he makes splashing green worth it. I'd just like to re-mention that damage from fetchlands is a *huge* deal in the zoo match-up, which is the one we're looking to improve. Damage from fetchland, and not weakness of the manabase or the danger of stifle, are the main reason I *don't* splash.

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Well I am not getting tired to emphasize that the Ugw version I play is still very good in my aggro heavy Meta (getting 8th on a 31 player tournament lately with heavy Zoo, Countertop Meta). My matchups against Zoo are 50/50. In the last tourney I won both matches against them. Goyf is a great addition for that matchup because it stalls and comes as a surprise block via Aether Vial. At least it is bigger then everything else you can probably lay Turn 1-3. So it at least eats a creature AND a burn spell. Usually when I was playing mono U there is no "single" creature that can deal with Nactal or Apes. I usually leave the counters for special occasion: 1. PoP (because the 2 color splash hurts), 2. First turn Nactal or Lavamancer (because Zoo can bring down too much damage the first turns). StoP of course also helps. Game 2, Absolute Law comes from the SB and if it hits the table and isnt dealt with immediatly just wins you the game. So I advokate pro Goyf and pro StoP.

What is the great risk for a splash, especially green? Goyf can be played via Aether vial most times ...

Another weakness of green is that in the mirror, if they have Submerge and you don't, they get to play it.

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Originally Posted by Finn

This deck is controllish enough to mitigate any perception of drawback that STP has. And Wasteland + Path to Exile in the same deck=silly.

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Yeah that's what I thought. It was just an idea.

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In general, I think your deck is trying to accomplish too much, dyzzy.

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Part of why I hated the list so much. It's not my usual list, I made a lot of last minute changes and I got a lot of conflicting advice from my friends.

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But there is no arguing with a decent finish. Will you write us a mini report?

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Not if you want to read anything useful. :wink: I didn't take notes and my memory is kinda bad so I wouldn't be able to write anything detailed. I'll just say my matches were Painter's Servant Grindstone (loss), Zoo (loss), Affinity (win), janky MBA (win), Helm of Awakening Tendrils/Empty the Warrens combo (win), Dreadstill (win), Countertop (win), and Thresh (win). I could try to write more later, but again it probably won't be very helpful.

I hate to say this, but Nightmare's pretty much been dead on in a lot of his assessments. I've liked the White splash, and Sovereign's been better than Wake Thrasher.

My list at current is as follows.

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Soveriegn

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Pithing Needle

on white splashes:

has anyone tried Sygg as a 2CC?

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

on white splashes:

has anyone tried Sygg as a 2CC?

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The general consensus is that Sygg is way too mana hungry for this deck but feel free to try him out. I can see situations where he'd be good, but I think they're really corner cases.

If you want a similar effect, try out Kira. She's not a merfolk but I think she's way better than Sygg.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I hate to say this, but Nightmare's pretty much been dead on in a lot of his assessments. I've liked the White splash, and Sovereign's been better than Wake Thrasher.

My list at current is as follows.

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Soveriegn

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
3 Meddling Mage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Pithing Needle

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Sideboard needs moar Path to Exiles.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Sideboard needs moar Path to Exiles.

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+1

Also, how does Meddling Mage work out for you? Which matches do you usually bring them in for?