All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Rush80

The trend is to un-ban cards. So I am expecting no ban or restriction whilst some cards may get unbanned.

Such as:
Black Vise
Frantic Search


The only card which has a remote possibility to be banned is Griselbrand on the basis of its similarity with Yawgmoth's Bargain.
However the format is so diverse now that I see no need to ban any candidate card.

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There was a card recently released that's dangerously close to Windfall, I forget the name of it though. And I don't think there's any way Jace isn't going to at very least be looked at for possible ban. There's vintage players who laugh at the fact the card made it through development =/ I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's probably one of the more likely banhammer targets. IMO the card is one of the biggest oversights and design fails in pretty much all of TCG history... although not quite on the level of Tolarian Academy.....

That said, Jace is boring.... he's making the format a tad boring and CounterTop still has ways to win without him now with Miracle angel armies. UG Delver Decks can win without him too.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

There was a card recently released that's dangerously close to Windfall, I forget the name of it though. And I don't think there's any way Jace isn't going to at very least be looked at for possible ban. There's vintage players who laugh at the fact the card made it through development =/ I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's probably one of the more likely banhammer targets. IMO the card is one of the biggest oversights and design fails in pretty much all of TCG history... although not quite on the level of Tolarian Academy.....

That said, Jace is boring.... he's making the format a tad boring and CounterTop still has ways to win without him now with Miracle angel armies. UG Delver Decks can win without him too.

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UG delver? Please tell me how UG delver impacts B&R list restrictions.

Jace getting banned makes pure control decks obsolete in legacy. What would they do, switch jace for fact or fiction? Don't make me laugh. Control dies without JTMS in legacy, and that isn't a good thing at all.

If you don't want to adapt to new cards like DRS, you're a moron that shouldn't play legacy. Adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs/extinct. DRS is a fair magic card. Oh no, he enables decks to have more colors than 3. So does birds of paradise, and I don't see birds getting banned in legacy ever. DRS is beatable if you want to beat it. Just the new goblin lackey, in 5 years DRS will be just another card.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

UG delver? Please tell me how UG delver impacts B&R list restrictions.

Jace getting banned makes pure control decks obsolete in legacy. What would they do, switch jace for fact or fiction? Don't make me laugh. Control dies without JTMS in legacy, and that isn't a good thing at all.

If you don't want to adapt to new cards like DRS, you're a moron that shouldn't play legacy. Adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs/extinct. DRS is a fair magic card. Oh no, he enables decks to have more colors than 3. So does birds of paradise, and I don't see birds getting banned in legacy ever. DRS is beatable if you want to beat it. Just the new goblin lackey, in 5 years DRS will be just another card.

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The fact that there was pure control decks before there was Jace invalidates your entire post.

EDIT: And I'm sure you're right. If power creep continues as it has been then in 5 years every 1 drop will be a 3/3 with 5 abilities and DRS will be considered "unplayable".

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

The fact that there was pure control decks before there was Jace invalidates your entire post.

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I could swear Countertop and all forms of UW Control were pushed out of Legacy by Aether Vial before Jace, SFM and the Miracle-Mechanic recovered the pure control archtype

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I could swear Countertop and all forms of UW Control were pushed out of Legacy by Aether Vial before Jace, SFM and the Miracle-Mechanic recovered the pure control archtype

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I knew people who ran permission even after Aether Vial's release and did pretty well for themselves.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

I knew people who ran permission even after Aether Vial's release and did pretty well for themselves.

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Running some permission is not the same as running a control deck.

See, for instance, RUG Delver.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

If you don't want to adapt to new cards like DRS, you're a moron that shouldn't play legacy. Adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs/extinct. DRS is a fair magic card. Oh no, he enables decks to have more colors than 3. So does birds of paradise, and I don't see birds getting banned in legacy ever. DRS is beatable if you want to beat it. Just the new goblin lackey, in 5 years DRS will be just another card.

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I Agree with your point about DRS and Birds. While I agree that DRS is a very powerful card, mana fixing wise he is just a worse BoP. Of course the reason he is so good is not because of only the mana ability but still. The fact that a late game top decked DRS is still a decent draw is what makes him separate from BoP and others.

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

Running some permission is not the same as running a control deck.

See, for instance, RUG Delver.

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I suppose.

Jace still makes the format extremely boring. And even R&D have stated pretty negative feelings about the card.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

My example Magus of the Bazaar is a creature that I feel is balanced at least in theory. Regardless of what you think of the utility it offers it's a rare utility creature who does what it's meant to and isn't strong in areas that it doesn't need to be. When compared to DRS you have 3 amazing abilities, a split mana cost which makes the card even more flexible and easy to play AND it's a 1/2 body. It seems too good in too many areas.... like I said.... if I was asked to guess the CMC without prior knowledge and was told that it was a top tier rare used in tournament play I'd still guess 2CMC or higher.

Utility creatures can have amazing utility... that's fine. I consider Magus of the Bazaar's utility to be amazing. Why does every utility creature need to have amazing utility, seemingly too low mana costs and a body that's good beyond necessity. I'd feel like DRS was still borderline OP even if it was a 0/1 and nothing else about it was different. It seems normal... cause it's been out so long that it's just generally accepted as where the curve is now.... but it and other creatures like it are really catalysts of drastic power creep. I guess R&D did say they wanted creatures to be better at one point tho.... they have succeeded....

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If Magus of the Bazaar is an example of a balanced or amazing utility creature for you, then Legacy may not be the format with the appropriate power level for you. That card has never been even remotely close to playable.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

If Magus of the Bazaar is an example of a balanced or amazing utility creature for you, then Legacy may not be the format with the appropriate power level for you. That card has never been even remotely close to playable.

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xD My first 4 LED that I ever acquire (which I still own today) costed me the price of one booster pack and a handful of commons.
I picked up a Bazaar of Baghdad back in the day for like $0.75 at a card shop cause it was considered trash at the time.

Magus is good. MTG Community just slow.

The point I was making seems to have been lost on you though. My point is an amazing utility creature shouldn't be above the curve in every aspect of the card. Magus has (IMO) good utility. Regardless of what you think of the utility the body that utility at least makes sense for a creature intended to be utility based. 2CMC 0/1. DRS is a 1/2 1CMC split-mana with 3 amazing abilities. The card doesn't need all of that as a utility creature. That's just WotC cramming as many numbers into a card as they possibly can to make their sets sell better, and they're warping the crap out of the curve as a result.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

I suppose.

Jace still makes the format extremely boring. And even R&D have stated pretty negative feelings about the card.

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jace isnt really an issue in this format. He's slow and I see him often get used as the blue card to FOW. Also his fateseal ability is great but with all the fetchlands floating around hes not a guarantee and keeping your opponent off something.

I dont think hes played enough to really have that large of an impact on the format. consider cards like DRS, tarrmogoyf, Thoughtseize, Abrupt decay, and swords to plowshares. They all get played like 10x more than jace.

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Originally Posted by apple713

jace isnt really an issue in this format. He's slow and I see him often get used as the blue card to FOW. Also his fateseal ability is great but with all the fetchlands floating around hes not a guarantee and keeping your opponent off something.

I dont think hes played enough to really have that large of an impact on the format. consider cards like DRS, tarrmogoyf, Thoughtseize, Abrupt decay, and swords to plowshares. They all get played like 10x more than jace.

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I remember there being a Top 8 with 32 Jaces recently. Pretty sure it was Legacy. I could be wrong I suppose.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

I remember there being a Top 8 with 32 Jaces recently. Pretty sure it was Legacy. I could be wrong I suppose.

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You're going to need to supply a link for that. There's not even a deck in Legacy that usually plays 4 Jaces, and Jace decks make up about a third of the format, so there's no way every single deck decided to play 4 Jaces.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

You're going to need to supply a link for that. There's not even a deck in Legacy that usually plays 4 Jaces, and Jace decks make up about a third of the format, so there's no way every single deck decided to play 4 Jaces.

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Already looking for it.

EDIT : Nvm, that was a Standard event. I was misinformed. I still see Jace an awful lot in Legacy tho. I see CounterTop way too regularly for my liking.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

Already looking for it.

EDIT : Nvm, that was a Standard event. I was misinformed. I still see Jace an awful lot in Legacy tho. I see CounterTop way too regularly for my liking.

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Play Abrupt Decay if you hate Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

Already looking for it.

EDIT : Nvm, that was a Standard event. I was misinformed. I still see Jace an awful lot in Legacy tho. I see CounterTop way too regularly for my liking.

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consider this. For every Jace you see you'll see 2x swords to plowshares. For every miracles deck they also play swords. The there are 2 popular decks that play swords, maverick / D&T. Then theres this UWR delver thats playing it. Stoneblade plays swords and so on. They should make more planeswalkers like liliana and jace cause the rest are trash for legacy. It would be nice to see some diversity. Maybe we'll get that with Theros cause theres gonna be a few planeswalkers in there right?

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

I suppose.

Jace still makes the format extremely boring. And even R&D have stated pretty negative feelings about the card.

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Jace is one of the cornerstones of the few true control decks left in Legacy. Removing him would drastically damage an important archetype that many enjoy playing.

You can argue that playing against control is 'boring,' but I personally like playing through permission, removal, and other answers. It's very interesting, just like playing as or against combo is - assuming there's some amount of interaction, at least. While the games are a little slower, that's not really a problem as control doesn't necessarily want to prevent you from doing anything, they just want to prevent you from winning.

Extreme case of a 'boring' deck to play against is fast, reliable prison - something that should never exist in any healthy format, at least IMO. Current control is a long ways from that, though, so I'm not really seeing the issue.

There's also a lot of techy little answers to Jace; I really like the card existing in the format, and I feel like it adds more than it forces out. As far as I'm concerned, he only feels overpowered in the context of his time in Standard; having him exist next to Squadron Hawk and the various Swords of Derp and Derp wasn't exactly genius planning. (1W: Brainstorm might seem lackluster in Legacy, but it's a damn sight better than anything else you can do in Standard.)

People seem to forget that Super Jace also existed with Fetchlands in Standard.

Sure Super Jace and Fetchlands exist side by side in legacy, but you know what else exists in Legacy: Jund.

Remember when Jund and Super Jace existed side by side with each other? Super Jace couldn't do jack.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

If you don't want to adapt to new cards like DRS, you're a moron that shouldn't play legacy. Adapt or go the way of the dinosaurs/extinct. DRS is a fair magic card. Oh no, he enables decks to have more colors than 3. So does birds of paradise, and I don't see birds getting banned in legacy ever. DRS is beatable if you want to beat it. Just the new goblin lackey, in 5 years DRS will be just another card.

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It's not exactly like a bird of paradise...
Bird of paradise is not an anti graveyard teck, it does not gain life and it is not a clock... it dies to a lot of removal that DRS avoids also. It's a dead draw late game... The only upside of birds is that it is flying and can allways make mana... but DRS, in a world of fetch + wastelands does nearly the same...
Goblin lackey is only played in goblins. DRS is played... everywhere :)

ALso, I play Phyrexian revokers and rest in piece to combat him...

Anyway, i did not say, that we had to ban him, but just have a look at the results of deck with DRS.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

There was a card recently released that's dangerously close to Windfall, I forget the name of it though. And I don't think there's any way Jace isn't going to at very least be looked at for possible ban. There's vintage players who laugh at the fact the card made it through development =/ I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's probably one of the more likely banhammer targets. IMO the card is one of the biggest oversights and design fails in pretty much all of TCG history... although not quite on the level of Tolarian Academy.....

That said, Jace is boring.... he's making the format a tad boring and CounterTop still has ways to win without him now with Miracle angel armies. UG Delver Decks can win without him too.

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All windfall variants cost 4, that's the same difference as Timetwister and Diminshing return: a lot.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

All windfall variants cost 4, that's the same difference as Timetwister and Diminshing return: a lot.

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Tbh Time Twister and DR don't do the "exactly" the same, but the idea is correct: Mana matter in combo decks

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

Jace is one of the cornerstones of the few true control decks left in Legacy. Removing him would drastically damage an important archetype that many enjoy playing.

You can argue that playing against control is 'boring,' but I personally like playing through permission, removal, and other answers. It's very interesting, just like playing as or against combo is - assuming there's some amount of interaction, at least. While the games are a little slower, that's not really a problem as control doesn't necessarily want to prevent you from doing anything, they just want to prevent you from winning.

Extreme case of a 'boring' deck to play against is fast, reliable prison - something that should never exist in any healthy format, at least IMO. Current control is a long ways from that, though, so I'm not really seeing the issue.

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I actually run a fast reliable prison deck xD

So perhaps our definitions of boring are a tad different. My deck is actually a monoblack Prison that rushes Panoptic Mirror onto the field and exiles Fatigue with it to deny the opponent any further draw phases. And then I deplete their remaining resources with Hymns and the standard mono black control cards.

To me a fast reliable prison is exciting because it's explosive but in an odd way. Maybe the game ends very abruptly with one side not having any more options, but a lot of the prisons I've seen are really creative and interesting. Like an intricate setup of dominoes. Tip one and the whole thing is over in a matter of seconds and then it's not much to look at but the theorycrafting and setup undoubtedly had a lot of time spent on it. I don't necessarily mind playing against control, but I do find some control decks pretty boring to watch operate. The last local event I went to I got eliminated early and the final round was a mirror match where 2 people just said "No" to everything the other did for X turns. x_x It was a snorefest and I had to wait til it was over to go to KFC cause there was a raffle the same day for a booster box.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

I actually run a fast reliable prison deck xD

So perhaps our definitions of boring are a tad different. My deck is actually a monoblack Prison that rushes Panoptic Mirror onto the field and exiles Fatigue with it to deny the opponent any further draw phases. And then I deplete their remaining resources with Hymns and the standard mono black control cards.

To me a fast reliable prison is exciting because it's explosive but in an odd way. Maybe the game ends very abruptly with one side not having any more options, but a lot of the prisons I've seen are really creative and interesting. Like an intricate setup of dominoes. Tip one and the whole thing is over in a matter of seconds and then it's not much to look at but the theorycrafting and setup undoubtedly had a lot of time spent on it. I don't necessarily mind playing against control, but I do find some control decks pretty boring to watch operate. The last local event I went to I got eliminated early and the final round was a mirror match where 2 people just said "No" to everything the other did for X turns. x_x It was a snorefest and I had to wait til it was over to go to KFC cause there was a raffle the same day for a booster box.

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Mono black prison-> reliable and fast -panoptic mirror combo

yeah right, i'm sure it works but being very reliable and fast? it would have been scoring pretty well in legacy by now.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

There was a card recently released that's dangerously close to Windfall, I forget the name of it though. And I don't think there's any way Jace isn't going to at very least be looked at for possible ban. There's vintage players who laugh at the fact the card made it through development =/ I don't think it's unreasonable to say it's probably one of the more likely banhammer targets. IMO the card is one of the biggest oversights and design fails in pretty much all of TCG history... although not quite on the level of Tolarian Academy.....

That said, Jace is boring.... he's making the format a tad boring and CounterTop still has ways to win without him now with Miracle angel armies. UG Delver Decks can win without him too.

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This whole post sounds like pseudoscience.

If we overload the galvatron engines the proton oscillators may be able to warp the hyperspace in 2 parsecs.

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Originally Posted by Higgs

This whole post sounds like pseudoscience.

If we overload the galvatron engines the proton oscillators may be able to warp the hyperspace in 2 parsecs.

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Cool story bro. Write it down in your Captain's log.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

Mono black prison-> reliable and fast -panoptic mirror combo

yeah right, i'm sure it works but being very reliable and fast? it would have been scoring pretty well in legacy by now.

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Not sure how your opinion of the deck matters.

Did you just name a 5cc Artifact with imprint-costs of X mana in combination with the word "fast"?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Did you just name a 5cc Artifact with imprint-costs of X mana in combination with the word "fast"?

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He's everyone's dream first round opponent

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Originally Posted by Norm

He's everyone's dream first round opponent

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"His deck isn't on the tier 1 list I get my decklists from, we must flame him relentlessly just in case he's on to something!!"

I got flamed by friends when I opened a Mirage booster and called LED amazing as well. At the time it was labeled trash, my friend even lit one on fire because he was mad that he didn't get another card he wanted. Now I have the 4 I acquired for the cost of one booster and a handful of commons to remind me of how narrow-minded and sheep-like the community is sometimes.

It's the Karmic Justice of the MTG community.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

"His deck isn't on the tier 1 list I get my decklists from, we must flame him relentlessly just in case he's on to something!!"

I got flamed by friends when I opened a Mirage booster and called LED amazing as well. At the time it was labeled trash, my friend even lit one on fire because he was mad that he didn't get another card he wanted. Now I have the 4 I acquired for the cost of one booster and a handful of commons to remind me of how narrow-minded and sheep-like the community is sometimes.

It's the Karmic Justice of the MTG community.

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To be fair - LED only became amazing with Burning Wish and especially Infernal Tutor.

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Originally Posted by Barook

To be fair - LED only became amazing with Burning Wish and especially Infernal Tutor.

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Way back in the day you could load a second hand into a Knowledge Vault over a few turns and effectively get 3 free mana before sac'ing the vault and having a new replenished hand too. LED always had its uses. The same thing happened with Bazaar. I got my first and only one for $0.75 and was told that I got ripped off cause the card was garbage. The MTG community is among the worst at theorycrafting because more than any other community they'd rather just flame anything that someone else hasn't already made successful and just hope people don't remember if it ends up being successful.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

Way back in the day you could load a second hand into a Knowledge Vault over a few turns and effectively get 3 free mana before sac'ing the vault and having a new replenished hand too. LED always had its uses. The same thing happened with Bazaar. I got my first and only one for $0.75 and was told that I got ripped off cause the card was garbage. The MTG community is among the worst at theorycrafting because more than any other community they'd rather just flame anything that someone else hasn't already made successful and just hope people don't remember if it ends up being successful.

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Or maybe after ten years and thousands of cards the value of certain cards can change??!?!!????!!?!??!?!??

You're also speaking of combo pieces, which are all 100% garbage in a vacuum until cards that combo with them exist. You're just baiting responses and polluting the thread.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Or maybe after ten years and thousands of cards the value of certain cards can change??!?!!????!!?!??!?!??

You're also speaking of combo pieces, which are all 100% garbage in a vacuum until cards that combo with them exist. You're just baiting responses and polluting the thread.

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Says the guy who posted a response to my first post on this forum calling me a troll and telling everyone to disregard what I said. Now you're accusing me of "baiting responses".

This is a forum... conversating is what it's for. If you don't like it then ignore my posts, but stop with your borderline paranoid accusation about other peoples' intent while posting on a forum. Hooooly crap dude. I'm not even sure if you're trolling anymore.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

"His deck is terrible, we must flame him relentlessly to keep his ego in check"

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Yeah, pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Norm

Yeah, pretty much.

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I responded to someone who said prison decks were boring. There was nothing cocky or egotistic about my post. All I did was say that I use a prison deck and I find it and other prison decks exciting. Someone else decided to criticize said deck based on 2 cards that he knows are in it.

So yeah... nice try but your flame is just flame regardless of how you try to justify it.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

I responded to someone who said prison decks were boring. There was nothing cocky or egotistic about my post. All I did was say that I use a prison deck and I find it and other prison decks exciting. Someone else decided to criticize said deck based on 2 cards that he knows are in it.

So yeah... nice try but your flame is just flame regardless of how you try to justify it.

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All i meant is that your deck didn't fall under the "fast reliable prison deck" cathegory. We have boring prison decks already and yeah sure your panoptic horror pile might be one but it's nor fast nor reliable enough to lock down the metagame or be tier 1. In fact that's the whole problem of those prison and MUD decks, they are unreliable.
The probloem of boring decks only emerges when they are present in great numbers.

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Originally Posted by AEnesidem

All i meant is that your deck didn't fall under the "fast reliable prison deck" cathegory. We have boring prison decks already and yeah sure your panoptic horror pile might be one but it's nor fast nor reliable enough to lock down the metagame or be tier 1. In fact that's the whole problem of those prison and MUD decks, they are unreliable.
The probloem of boring decks only emerges when they are present in great numbers.

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Goblin welders make anything artifact oriented fast. It's after they board in gravehate that I insta-lose.

Or if opponents waste my badlands cause besides those and Lotus Petals i have no red mana sources.

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Originally Posted by GreekAsTheGods

Goblin welders make anything artifact oriented fast. It's after they board in gravehate that I insta-lose.

Or if opponents waste my badlands cause besides those and Lotus Petals i have no red mana sources.

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Come on ... you need a Discard-Outlet + Welder + the Artifact of choice here, in a format which has sooooooo few answers to a summoning sick 1/1 creature that depends on the GY ;)

Hilariously the same applies to DRS ... to an extend ;D

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Come on ... you need a Discard-Outlet + Welder + the Artifact of choice here, in a format which has sooooooo few answers to a summoning sick 1/1 creature that depends on the GY ;)

Hilariously the same applies to DRS ... to an extend ;D

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Entomb works well. And once I find a weekend where I don't spend quite so much going out I'm gonna try Gambles. In the case of an artifact it's basically win-win for my deck. Not sure how they'll work though... like I said, I have the smallest splash of red in my mana base so I might end up regretting it.

EDIT: AEnesidem is right that the decks are unreliable. That's part of what i enjoy about it though. I don't expect the metagame to drastically shift towards Prison decks anytime soon. Just when a prison deck does work it's a beautiful thing. Even if the decks, perhaps, have terrible tournament results due to lack of reliability. Nothing bores me more than watching two people take turns saying "Nope". :frown: That's just me though (literally it seems).