Those guys are searching for way too many plains.
Greetings
Printable View
Those guys are searching for way too many plains.
Greetings
Like Einherjar, I like playing a Snapcaster heavy build, similarly three. Instead of playing Supreme Verdict -- which is fine, if slow -- I've been playing a singleton copy of Path to Exile in the board. Against a large number of decks in the format, it's simply an Unmake. Getting a 2 (or three) for 1 with Snapcaster Mage and Path has won me many a Delver matchup.
really? if your opponent goes turn 1, land, aether vial. I bet you're gonna wish that CJ in your hand's an EE, am I right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Of all the major Vial decks: DnT, Goblin, and Merfolk, Supreme Verdict is only good against Merfolk. Verdict will never happen on turn 4 thanks to Wastelands and Ports. EE on the other hand, has less of the problem.
CJ's ok/average at dealing with WUR delver. RUG delver on the other hand, it's terrible. It's only useful if RUG ever tries to land a fast Vortex with 3~4 lands from RUG's side.
Well written analysis Philip. I have some critiques and comments I'd like to pitch in, but I'll save it for another post. Glad to see a lot of discussion on how to tweak miracles moving forward now that Council is out.
---
I just played in the Philly legacy series 40 duals event with (mostly) Philip's 4 ponder build to a top 4 split. Just for personal reference, my previous write ups are here and here.
I walked in with about 5 minutes to spare, so my decklist was full of scribbles and cross-outs, but I ended up submitting the following list:
Ponder Miracles
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Wear/Tear
SB: 1 Keranos
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
Changes from my previous time playing the list at an event this large: Switched out a STP from the main for a Pyroblast.
There were three vendors at the event, but unfortunately no one had a Council's Judgement on hand. I would have ordered one online, but I wasn't originally planning on going to the event. I probably would have put it in that STP/Pyroblast spot and I think I would have switched a Wear/Tear out for one in the board. No idea if those would be the correct places to fit Council in, but I was thinking up all these things on the fly while I was heading to the tournament. I was also considering two blasts in the maindeck to be super greedy against blue decks along with some other random sideboard cards I've been cashing modo dailies with like Surgical Extraction, Izzet Staticaster (because I didn't own a paper Sulfur Elemental), and Baneslayer Angel.
Now I usually never play something like blasts in the main, but I figured the top tables would be heavy with blue cards since I recognized a lot of strong players in the room who had been playing miracles at previous events. Luckily I was right. After the first couple rounds, half the players at the top tables were playing miracles. I didn't save my life total sheets, so the win-loss records might be off by one or two, but from the best of my memory my rounds were as follows:
Round 1: 4-Color Delver (2-1) 1-0-0
I initially put my opponent on BUG Delver as those were the only colors I saw during the first game. I had my top online pretty quickly and shuffled away a Counterbalance since I figured my opponent had Abrupt Decays hanging out somewhere in his list. I managed to brainstorm with Jace twice to close out the game with an Entreat. Somewhere near the last couple turns, my opponent played a Badlands, yet I think I was too tired (getting about four hours of sleep the night before) to pause for a second and ask myself why BUG Delver would have a Badlands in their list.
In any case, I immediately sided out -4 FOW, -3 Counterbalance for game 2 and was promptly beaten down by Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman, and 1/1 tokens. If one of the two EEs in my hand was a Verdict, the game might have gone differently, but oh well. For game three I brought in two Counterbalances since I didn't think 4-Color Delver played the suite of Abrupt Decays.
It didn't really matter though since in game three, my opponent played Badlands into a Deathrite Shaman which I STP. He misses his turn 2 land and plays another Deathrite Shaman. Again I STP it and manage to hit 5 lands while he's still on his Badlands. I resolve Jace and he scoops.
Round 2: Burn (2-0) 2-0-0
Opponent puts down a turn one Goblin Guide, so I put him on Burn or UR Delver. Luckily my turn two Brainstorm finds STP and a land to put on top for the Goblin Guide trigger. I think he got stuck on two lands for a couple turns while I resolve CounterTop. My life is still sitting somewhere above 10 when I resolve Jace and plus. His next burn spell goes to my dome, so I continue fatesealing with Jace as it's my only clock. I gave him all one drops and eventually Jace ults him while I sat back on countermagic.
Game two was fairly similar. I think the only creatures he ran were Goblin Guides, Eidolons, and Grim Lavamancers all of which I saw. I had CounterTop set up fairly quickly, but made a critical mistake by not waiting until I was floating a 1-drop before activating my fetchlands. He snuck in 2 bolts to put me down to 9. Lucikily he was stuck on 2 lands, so I put down Jace to bounce his Eidolon twice. On his third attempt to resolve Eidolon, I counter it. When I plus Jace on my turn, I gave him a land to which he gladly slammed Sulfuric Vortex. Good news was that I was holding an Engineered Explosives since turn 1. The bad news was that I was markedly missing red mana on my board and in the top 3 cards when I checked with top. By pure luck, I Jace brainstorm into a Volcanic Island to blow up the Sulfuric Vortex while I was at 7. Several fateseals later, Jace ended the game.
Round 3: Sneak and Show (2-0) 3-0-0
My opponent, on the play, fetches a basic Mountain with Scalding Tarn and passes. This really confuses me, but I put him on burn. I figured there was a chance he was on Sneak and Show, but also thought it likely that he fetched Mountain for a turn 1 burn play, but decided against it and wanted to wait until my turn to play his bolt. I couldn't imagine why Sneak and Show would fetch out a blind basic Mountain and just pass. After the match my opponent told me it was his only colored source and he was holding Sneak Attack. If he knew I wasn't playing a Wasteland deck, I think this game would have gone very differently, but in any case I had a Force for his turn 2 Sneak Attack off a Lotus Petal and an Ancient Tomb.
He fumbles for a couple turns trying to find blue mana and when he finally does (via Lotus Petal), my miser's copy of Pyroblast takes out Show and Tell. I let his first Gitaxian Probe resolve, but I decide to Snapcaster+Pyroblast his second one giving me a couple attack steps to bring him down to 4 life. I don't have an answer to the second Sneak Attack he plays, but I've got Top in play and I know Entreat is the top card of my library. He activates Sneak Attack putting into play both Griselbrand and Emrakul. I STP the Griselbrand bringing him up to 11 life and Entreat for 3 angels. Annihilator trigger takes out all my lands, but I've still got Snapcaster, 3 angels, and 18 life vs his Emrakul which brings me down to 3. I swing back on his turn to which he activates Sneak Attack for Griselbrand and blocks to gain life. I pass and he scoops as he doesn't find another creature for Sneak Attack.
In game 2, I counter an early Show and Tell and a Sneak Attack. Once he has mana back up, he fetches during my end step and asks to shortcut fetch+cast Intuition. I give him the thumbs up and he takes a couple minutes before he decides on presenting Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, and Blood Moon(!?). This one really puts me in the tank... He's holding up three unknown cards while I'm holding Vendilion Clique, Brainstorm, Force of Will, and Jace along with a board of Volcanic Island, Tundra, and Island. Because I have four red blasts plus two Flusterstorms in my list, I'm more scared of Sneak Attack than I am of Show and Tell, so I knew the Sneak Attack was hitting the graveyard. This leaves me with Show and Tell and Blood Moon... Now obviously I'm less afraid of Blood Moon than I am of Show and Tell, but I'm so surprised by the Intuitioned Blood Moon that I'm trying to think of all the different combinations of what he could have in his hand that he would get a Blood Moon over any other kill spell. After like 5 minutes of apologizing to my opponent for thinking so long, I give him the Blood Moon with the intention of Cliquing his draw step. He's holding Emrakul, Griselbrand, Lotus Petal, and Blood Moon. I took the Blood Moon since I didn't want to risk Brainstorm locking myself on the following turn. Clique + Snapcaster (flashing back Counterspell) ends up killing him. After the match, my opponent explained that he took out two Show and Tells for two Through the Breaches and that since he didn't have 5 mana at the time, he decided on Blood Moon instead of a second Sneak Attack. He was also surprised to see that I took out all my white cards for the second game -- he took out Show and Tell because of STP and Terminus.
Round 4: Shardless BUG (1-2) 3-1-0
By now the top table had five miracle players including myself. To my right, my friend, also on Miracles, was also facing Shardless Bug. While I was facing down a resolved Jace plus Liliana, my friend had already wrapped up his first game with a timely Entreat. I managed to get rid of the Jace via Pyroblast, but couldn't activate my own Jace enough times to find anything worthwhile. By the time we were done sideboarding for game two, I glance over to see Jace + angels crushing the other Shardless player on their game two.
During my own game two, my opponent sits around on open mana while I resolve Jace into Keranos. I'm guessing he had a hand of multiple reactive spells like Decay, Charm, and Maelstrom Pulse which don't help too much as Keranos pings him to death from 27 life.
In my first tournament write-up, on May 18, I made a note of how many times I came close to ending the match in turns. Since then I made an effort to play quickly and I've since ended all my matches with about 10 minutes to spare. Unfortunately though, my opponent this time around played pretty slow, and even though I played as fast as I could in games one and two, we had about four minutes left when game three started. None of this really affected our match though since my opponent's double wasteland cut me off enough mana to clear his board of DRS, Shardless Agent, Shardless Agent, and Creeping Tar Pit. He ended up winning the match in turns which I was fine with. I don't think I made any mistakes, so he won fair and square. I would have been more bothered if the board stabilized and the match ended up in a draw.
Round 5: Death and Taxes (2-1) 4-1-0
For once I recognize what my opponent is on before the match starts, so I keep a hand with FOW and Top. I catch his turn one Aether Vial with Force. For some reason I forget that Aven Mindcensor is a card and when I go to fetch on turn three, he catches me. I attempt to fetch three times after that and just scoop. All-in-all about a three minute game.
In game two, I keep a hand full of lands and fetch everything while Mindcensor cannot be cast. He doesn't resolve enough taxing effects to slow me down enough before I Jace into a lethal Entreat.
Game three, my opponent plays nothing but Thalia and a naturally casted Serra Avenger. EE at 2 wipes them out and my opponent follows up with Mirrodin Crusador, Mother of Runes, and Jitte forcing me to block with a Snapcaster Mage before I'm able to Terminus. I decided to naturally Entreat during my draw step since I was holding up two fetch lands and didn't want shuffle away top with a maxed out Entreat. I think I made 4 angels, played a fetch land, and passed to which my opponent end stepped his Enlightened Tutor to find Ratchet Bomb. I fetch and look with top to find my only other Entreat. The good ol' poker face holds me through his ratchet bomb until I Entreat again on his next end step for lethal.
Round 6: Elves (2-0) 5-1-0
I originally thought my opponent was on Nic-Shift, but he decided to switch it up with Elves this time around. Again at the four other matches at the top table, four of them were also on Miracles. Of course, I have Pyroblast in my opening hand and for the entire match cannot get rid of it. I counter his Glimpse and Natural Order and stabilize the board with Jace. I think I bounced a Deathrite twice while I was at 4 life and had to Force it on the third time it came down. Counterbalance buys me enough time to find an Entreat.
I think I sided: -1 Pyroblast, -1 Jace, -1 Entreat, -2 Spell Snare / +1 Swords to Plowshares, +2 EE, +2 Flusterstorm. I might have taken out a Force instead of the Jace, but I
can't remember. I want to say this was pretty close to the correct boarding plan vs. Elves although I considered Wear/Tear for Sylvan Library or Bitterblossom (damn Julian...).
On my opponent's second or third turn of game two, he shortcuts and puts down Birchlore Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote at the same time. Perhaps I should have called a judge to clear things up, but my opponent was a friendly guy so I asked him to play them one at a time so I could respond. I was holding Brainstorm and Terminus so I fetch and Brainstorm in response to the Symbiote. I don't think I would have Forced the Symbiote if I found one, but I wanted to feign that I was scared it. In any case, my Brainstorm drew a STP, another brainstorm, and another Terminus. I put Mountain and Terminus back on top and then let the Symbiote resolve. My opponent thinks for a second and then decides not to play the Birchlore Ranger anymore. Since his board is only Symbiote, DRS, and Dryad Arbor, I decide not to Terminus just yet but rather STP the Symbiote. I pass and he decides to commit more to the board as expected. Brainstorm EOT sets up for a draw step Terminus. After a couple turns, he tries to Natural Order, but I brainstorm my other Terminus on top which bottoms his Progenitus. Jace vs. an empty board ended the game.
Round 7: ID 6-1-1
The Shardless BUG opponent I lost to ended up somewhere among the top tables giving me the best breakers of X-1 players. I was able to ID into top 8 after placing 3rd at the beginning of round 7.
Top 8: Mirror (2-0) 7-1-1
The top 8 field consisted of four miracles players (3 of which were on the 4 ponder build), one burn player (!), one Nic-Shift, one Death and Taxes, and one Junk Blade. Interestingly I was the only miracles player in the room without Council's Judgement in his 75, but I think I was the only one with a main deck blast and the only one with four total blasts post board.
In game 1, we both mull to 5 and we consider taking the draw to move on to a post-sideboard game, but we ultimately ended up playing with 5 cards. My hand has two lands, Top, Counterspell, Terminus which I figure is as good as I can ask for. Top resolves and gives me plenty of looks. Good ol' top shows me nothing but lands for several turns while my opponent's Snapcaster Mage beats me down to 7 life before I'm able to find a Swords to Plowshares. While I'm floating a Counterspell, my opponent Cliques me to see a hand of Terminus, Top, Counterspell, and Island. He takes the Counterspell and jams Counterbalance, but my second Counterspell off the top is able to deal with it. Clique hits me down to 4, but I'm able to find a Terminus followed up by drawing off top to play my own Counterbalance. After a couple turns, I Entreat for two angels. He takes one out with a STP and after his miracle Terminus is countered by the Terminus I put underneath the Entreat. My one angel is able to swing all the way.
I board out all my white cards and start with an opening 7 of land, Brainstorm, Jace, Counterbalance, Counterbalance, Blast, Spell Snare. If I was down a game I would have mulled, but I felt like there would be a land in the top four. His turn one Top worries me, but my Brainstorm sees a land on the last card down along with another Brainstorm, Flusterstorm, and a Top (including the card I drew for the turn). I shuffle away the Jace, but decide to keep one card from the Brainstorm. Some point down the line we both have Tops active. While fighting over his Counterbalance, he activates his Top to draw Force which prompts me to activate my own Top to draw my Counterspell. On my draw step, my opponent Cliques me hoping to bottom the Top, but I show a hand of Snapcaster Mage, Jace, Top, and Flusterstorm. He ends up taking the Snapcaster Mage since I have a Red Blast in the yard which gives me a Counterspell off the top. I play my top and pass. He plays his top, which I try to counter, and draws out a counter. On my following turn, I play my own Counterbalance and attempt to Clique him, but he bounces with Venser. I think my opponent made a slight misplay by attacking with Venser which gave me an opportunity to block with my Clique. He bounces his Venser via Karakas and I end up playing Snapcaster+Counterspell to hit him for 5 for a couple turns until a concession is forced.
Top 4: Prize split
Decided to prize split top 4 which was 3 Miracles and Junk Blade. I didn't check the pairings, but if I was playing the mirror and if I didn't know the other two Miracle players I might have played it out. I felt pretty comfortable with the mirror.
All in all an improvement since I finally managed to beat through the top 8 round :)
Excellently written report! Thanks for that :smile:
Council's Judgment actually has really nice interaction with Aether Vial. Like SFM, when you cast Judgment, they have to decide whether or not to activate the Aether Vial. If they activate it then you can kill whatever they put in off it, but if they don't activate it then you can kill the Vial with them having lost their window to use it first.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
And thanks princeofperasia for the report. Are there any changes you'd make besides squeezing in some Council's Judgments and how are you liking the four Ponders?
It has a similar interaction with with Karakas, mom, Top, forgemaster, wirewood symbiote, etc. Imagine D&T has Brimaz, Karakas, vial. If they want to use them, they basically have to fire off karakas AND vial and then given that information you can choose the biggest threat (probably still vial).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Dear Ein,
Thank you for sharing your insights.
is the above list weaker against Combo than your classic list (a variant of which I have been successfully playing)?
I argue that Spell Pierces matter on Turn 1 as resource vs Discard, Combo (storm, Show and Tell, and reanimator), disruptive artifacts, the Mirror.
To make room for at least 2 copies, I would cut 1 StP and 1 Counterbalance.
Truly,
Ok so I have a quick mana base question. I've been building miracles over a few months and playing proxy-legal tournaments to cover the pieces im missing.
Outside of the cliques, which will come later as they are just in the board. my current mana base with what im missing is
2 tundra
1 volcanic (dont own)
4 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 tarn
4 mesa
2 strand (dont own)
2 mystic gate
and I also need to buy the FoW.
I'm trying to prioritize what to buy next, and I think either the 2 strands or the FoW depending on what ebay deals I see.
My main question is, with my only red sources as 2 pryoblast 1 REB in the board, could I sub out the volcanic for something? It seems like so much money for a minor part of the deck. Granted, I could probably run a steam vents, but im curious about running either a second mountain, or just going with the one mountain and having another basic in the deck. I also think it might be ok with just the mountain as im running the 4 mesas 2 strand instead of the opposite as most do. (again for budget reasons, I already owned the mesas and kinda fear a reprint)
Thoughts?
nice report princeofpersia. How you liking spell snare? seems good vs dark confidant, hymm, thalia, counterbalance , but spell pierce hits early liliana and jace. how is keranos. seems good in the mirror but 5 mana is alot
I just started playing Miracles on magic online this past weekend with the following list and I like it so far but still learning the interface and the clock is an enemy as well. seems it can hard to win 3 in 25 minutes esp wheb people do not scoop and play out to run down your clock. need more practice i guess
Artifact (4)
Sensei's Divining Top
Blue (23)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ponder
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
Multi Color (1)
1 Supreme Verdict
White (10)
1 Council's Judgement
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
Lands (22)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Council's Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
Council of the Absolute is nice sometimes to kill True Name and trouble some permanents like Null Rod, Needle and Sulfic Vortex out of burn but 3 mana is a lot and sometimes I were thinking I should put Engineered Explosives main.
I found myself boarding in the 2 Stoneforge and Batter skull from my sideboard fairly often and I seem to run into burn fairly often on MTGO so this list by Brian Braun-Duin from the latest star city caught my eye. So what did people think of Stoneforge instead of Entreat the Angels?
U/W Miracles
Brian Braun-Duin
3rd Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 6/15/2014
Legacy
Creatures (5)
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
Spells (30)
1 Batterskull
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
1 Preordain
4 Terminus
Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Meddling Mage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Humility
2 Rest in Peace
3 Pyroblast
1 Wear
1 Council's Judgment
^^^^^
Council of the Absolute would be some pro tech right there. So much better than Meddling Mage in the mirror!
I piloted this slightly obscure list to 3-2 on Saturday. Slightly miffed at the result, but it was a good day.
Permanents: 13
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordane
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
4 Force of Will
4 Terminus
4 Entreat the Angels
Lands: 21
2 Plains
5 Island
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
Sideboard
1 Mountain
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgement
1 Wear // Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vendilion Clique
Preordane is generally better than Ponder when you've got any of the other good cards in your deck (Brainstorm, Jace, or Top). The only issue is when you don't want to draw any of the cards in your top few, but do want to pitch that Force or whatever to the bottom. Playing 8 Miracles caused this to come up a couple of times throughout the day.
The deck is generally designed as 'max out all of our broken shit', but then I cut a Jace because I wanted to play Counterspell and Council's Judgment in the main.
The Counterspell and Judgment in the sideboard were because I'd never played the card before (obviously). CS is a good all round answer, so I could just throw that in if things weren't working out with the build, and if the Judgment turned out to be more than just an O-Ring variant another could be brought in. It came in Vs Merfolk (TNN, yo) and Junkblade. I cast it once and it was a 1-1. Wasn't much better than an StP, but it's there for the versatility. The rest of the sideboard seems standard. Staticaster never got cast. I brought it in against Dredge because I was boarding five cards out and only four cards in. It kills Ichorid and the 1/1 Ichorid.
R1, Dredge. G1 I keep CounterTop, die on T3. G2 I keep Countertop, RiP, double Island. I play Top, then Balance, reveal a Karakas to his Cabal Therapy. I was upset.
R2, Merfolk. G1 I managed to find double Terminus very quickly as she tried to just aggro the crap out of me. G2 she made a Standstill and I cracked it almost immediately to kill a Mutavault. She buries me in cards. G3 I Entreated for X=2 in response to an attack when she didn't have Islandwalk. She makes a Phantasmal Image and tries to make a game of it, but I swing in, then Entreat for X=4 during her End Step.
R3, Dredge. Keep CounterTop. He T1 Studies an Ichorid and Bridge. I still lose because even bad players win with Dredge. G2 I keep CounterTop and Force of Will. I Force his first Spell, he Loots then double Therapies me.
R4, Junkblade. The guy is new to Legacy, and can't keep up with the game properly. He decides to tell me he's not playing Gaddok Teeg which makes my life a lot easier in G2 when he mulligans to 5 and fails to make a 3rd Land on time after I StP his Deathrite.
R5, Lands. This guy was so bad it's untrue. He keeps a hand of double Punishing Fire, triple Grove, double Exploration, then draws a third Fires. I fail to find Counterbalance in about twenty to twenty-five cards, which is unreal. G2 he assembles some contraption, and I kill two Marit Leiges before Ultimating a Jace. G3 I make RiP on T2, and he Naturally draws DepthStage. I StP it on T3 or 4 or whenever it is, then beat him to death with a Vendilion Clique. He finds a second one and ticks counters down on it for three turns. He decides to go for it in response to something not very relevant, then I untap and Bounce it. He was a horrid player, and a massive racist, I'm glad he lost and even more glad that he was offended when I asked him to 'show me the combo'. Prick.
Overall it was okay. The deck did well. I felt like I got a little unlucky throughout the day. I never hit a blind flip, and my draws were all really awkward. My opponents all applied pressure incredibly quickly and forced me to react a lot, except my g/f in R2 who got a slow opener in G3. Ended up getting £3 store credit, whilst Dan (R1) made T4 and died in the S's after mulling to 5 with double LED and a Dredger not quite getting there for £5. Reva (R2) got £3, we pooled with my £9.50 on account and got Master of Waves, True-Name, and an oversized Foil Mayael the Anima for £2 cash. Which wasn't a bad deal. Sadly they'd run out of their £1 Shardless Agents. (Wut?)
I really liked four Entreats. I lost a game because I had 3 Terminus, 2 Entreat and no way of casting them, but I don't think that's an issue; sometimes you draw shit when you mulligan, sometimes you get Countertop and find a Jace. Being able to more reliably set up running Entreats was massive. I always forget just how good Entreat is when I'm writing these lists up, so I'm glad I finally decided to just go all out on them this weekend, as it may have changed how I view the deck as a whole. I don't get Stoneforge/Batterskull. Any deck can do that, and everyone can deal with it. Entreat is unique to our strategy and causes massive problems for our opponent. It's not like Pulse and D-Sphere are big players in the format. (Though I do miss my Enlightened Tutor sideboard.)
you can probably get by without the volcanic as i fetch for mountain over volcanic often but not having it can constrain you colors early. glacial fortress can be a cheap alternative if cant afford strands. would prioritize getting force of will before the strands since combo is pretty popular and there may be a fetchland reprintQuote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
YamiJoey;
Preordain is a lot worse than Ponder in the list. Ponder t1 to set up CB turn 2 is really strong and with all the fetches in the deck+top we rarely draw 2 cards of Ponder that we don't want.
VS dredge, why did you keep CB in post-board?
Every time I see someone play preordains over ponders in this deck, I instantly lose any faith I had in their skill with miracles.
I see BBD is taking out the Wear//tear SB slot for a Council. Personally, that's a dangerous move from being Death n Taxes locked. Sorcery speed is a huge risk from Vial deck running Ports. He can probably justify since his list allowing him to fall back to his SFM + Skull plan.
So far experimenting with Personal Tutor And Council. Personal allows you to change this card into Terminus/Entreat/Council, like the flexibility so far.
what about running a pleateau instead of the volcanic? particularly with a council's judgment in the main and 1 in the board may not be such a bad idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianeira
I am going to try my hand at posting at The Source, for the deck I love the most! I am known as local Tundra Control Guy (I may play this deck a little too much), but I am giving the red splash a try finally. My list is going to be very strange (comparative to some of the lists I have seen on this forum) but I want to get it into play, and most definitely get some input on it.
Miracles by bigdeezyrider
Creatures (4)
3 Vendillion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells (33)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
1 Blood Moon
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
Lands (23)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Karakas (most debatable land slot)
1 Mystic Gate
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blood Moon
3 Council's Judgment
1 Venser Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Terminus
Okay, going to try and tackle the obvious variations, then move on from there to discuss the nuances of why I built the deck the way I did.
Ponder: I am a huge not fan of Ponder in a deck like this. Sure we get to skimp on lands, but the biggest boon of this deck is being able to play more lands, resolve large entreats, and kill our opponent on the spot. If we have draws where we get mono wasteland/stifled because we aren't playing enough lands and are leaning on Ponder, we lose games. I have played the ponders before, and never been impressed, I would just rather play an extra land or 2, and then 2 spells I want a first/second/third/fourth of then to try to use ponder to get them. We already have the best draw fixing in the game, playing 12 fixers just seems excessive.
No Volcanic Mountain Accompanying the Mountain: I understand that being able to fetch a red source with Flooded Strand is big, but here is the logic. It is a wastelandable Island. More often we will need island, be tight on fetchlands, and want to cast our red spells in matchups where we bring them in (Lands for the Moons, Delver for the Pyroblast and the Moons, you get the point) that more often than not I would rather just have a basic mountain to fetch with more than half of my fetchlands, and trip over it from time to time, then to have the second wastelandable island. The theory could be completely wrong, but that is my rationale (I wouldn't play Tundra and Karakas if they weren't necessary evils of the deck)
The 3rd Counterspell: I know this deck is serviceable against combo game 1, but our 2 drop slot is anemic at best (as having only 5 to flip to CB is terrible) and we need some love game 1 anyways. This card is reasonable in most matchups, good against combo (if we get that far), and feels good in the deck in general. Double blue is a little rough if we are on the all basics plan for casting all of the spells on time, but hey, the give and take of things.
The mainboard Blood Moon (I.E. Free Win Card) This card gives us free wins against decks that thought basic lands were unnecessary. Well I wanted to abuse that, plus having it against decks that are very tough (Lands, Cloudpost, etc) and getting a second one to use as weapons against Delver anyways (you bloodmoon them, then kill their board at your reasonable leisure, as their non Force Counterspells are abyssmal if they can't cast them... This could completely be a second Council's Judgment
The full 4 Council's Judgment: There was concern about getting Port Locked. You shouldn't have that happen, and if it does, you may be in bigger trouble than not casting this card. Don't be afraid to keep the Moon in against D+T et al, as it takes care of the problem lands, but it isn't something that I necessarily would suggest the second copy of, as Plains is a real magic card in that deck. I digress: This card is absolutely insane. It kills everything you could actually want to kill, ever. EVER.. You force your opponent to tie up their mana in inconvenient spots if they want to be an instant speed deck, you can kill problem permanents (Jace, opp CB, Lilianna, Batterskull) as well as use it as a relatively fair Unmake. The ceiling of this card is insane. I cut the instant speed interaction cards I had in the board (the wear/tear some of the blasts), as well as the Oblivion ring to fit the full four in, and haven't been sad yet.
1 Single Pyroblast: I want this effect, I only want to play basic Mountain to cast it, so having multiple rotting seems not good. Since I also can cast only 1 spell around the table that is red, multiple seems not good. It fills special roles (Council's Judgment 5 against the Jaces and CBs of the world that also has flexibility, Swords to Plowshares #4 against the Delvers of the world, cheap interaction, and is decent against combo) and I wouldn't want access to more. I could be wrong, but that is yet to be seen, as I have only logged a half dozen games with this version.
I am more than willing to hear people out on this deck, and love discussion about it. I will also provide a list below of cards that were in the 75 at some point or another as well as cards I would like to try so that you can see Ideas that have gone through their paces, as well as maybe pick up some ideas yourself, or create discussion points:
Were In
More REBS/Pyros
Batterskull (With and Without SFM)
Thopter/Sword
Academy Ruins/EE/Crucible/Shackles (for the realllllllly fair metas)
Spell Pierces
Misdirection/Divert/Redirect/Swerve (can a man buy an answer to AD)
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Moat
Humility
Gilded Drake
Meddling Mage
Mana Leak
Scroll Rack
Land Tax
Pithing Needle
Snapcaster Mage
Ponder/Preordain/Predict
Sphinx's Revelation
Helm of Obedience/Energy Field
Celestial Colonade
Teferi Mage of Zalfir
Baneslayer
Leyline of Scantity
Punishing Fire
Things I want to try:
Keranos, God of the Storm? (Can't remember his exact name)
Aetherling
Elspeth Sun's Champion
Pyroclasm
Again as I have said, if my reasoning is unsound, or you like/dislike what I am doing, feel free to give me some feedback, I am more than willing to hear, and listen to it, and try some new things. HAve a wonderful day/afternoon/night Sourcers!
most points have been said and done:Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdeezyrider
Lossett’s Miracles article
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Miracles.html
Schonegger’s Miracles article
http://www.eternalcentral.com/there-...with-miracles/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/there-...-sideboarding/
I even wrote two more - hint to my sig. :D
I havn't had access to a PC this week. Will change tonight. So I will answer more appropriately then.
Greetings
Has anyone else tried playing SFM main? I have been running them for quite some time now and I have never been disappointed. Granted I am playing in a very fair meta where batterskull is an absolute house most of the time. Terminusing away the germ really doesn't matter and letting the equipment sit in play until you feel you have the extra mana / protection to re-deploy it is just sweet. I don't really feel that I want to dedicate 3 more SB slots to it though like BBD (2 more SFM and 1 Skull).
I have been running this list at 5 weekly tournaments in a row with only 2 matches lost (12-post and dredge)
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Batterskull
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
2 Meddling Mage / Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Council’s Judgment (was a second wear // tear)
1 Wear // Tear
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Entreat the Angels
Anyways, just thought I'd share a list that has been doing great for me!
Peace!
BBD got around 4 feature matches and or cuts to his match playing miracles with 2 sfm md, 2 sfm sb at the most recent invitational and the next day legacy open.
Archives here: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/profile/pastBroadcasts
Decklist here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=68936
Hey,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
the lack of Spell Pierces is def. a slight loss in the SneakAttack-MU, which was super hard in the preboarded MUs anyways. But the addition of Counterbalance makes up a a lot in the Storm-MU, because preboard Balance is very very good there. Playing less Spell Pierce goes hand in hand with the plan to cast a cantrip in your first turn to then have Balance or Counterspell. In this very Combo-MUs its often correct to even Brainstorm T1, depending on the situation, ofc.
So yeah, the Combo-MUs might have gotten a little worse over the field, but this change made already tough preboard matches just harder. ( I have yet to drop a match against Sneak at Competitive/Prof. REL - but I think I only won a single preboarded game, though. -on the back of Counterbalance, to make things more hillarious-)
I wish I could play 2 Pierce alongside 1 Judgement in the 4 Ponder list, but trust me - it is not possible. I wraped my head around this config - and there is no way. (essentially cutting a Swords for a Judgement like suggested by you is no way either, I am sorry) You could easily take my old GP list, because an inclusion of Judgement alongside 2 Pierce and 2 Ponders (the absolute minimum I could imagine) is possible.
Good to see so many new names in the thread, welcome! You could easily build a "cheap" UW Controldeck, if you wanted to. And if you cannot spend more money on Legacy I'd do that - because decks that are cheap "by accident" are way better than generally superior decks like Miracle, but budgetized. Coincidentally though, my version doesn't cost that much, and is on the lower end of playable Miracle builds.
I have to agree that Preordain is inferior to Ponder. And if I wanted a 9th or 10th blue cantrip I'd actually go with Portent and/or Predict. And I fear I have to repeat myself that I don't think that Personal Tutor is good, sorry. Enlightened Tutor was at least instant and could therefore make up for its CDA due to Counterbalance. Personal Tutor can't really do that. Other than that it's just not powerful enough.
I have to admit that I didn't test Mystics in the SB AND in the MB at once, though I've obv. played with Mystics in either, MB or SB. They are powerful and certainly a valid approach, I especially like to see 2 Batterskulls. I've used this tech in the past but didn't stick with it, love it, to be honest. But before playing 2/1 - 2/1 I'd just play the 3-card-sideboard-package, to be honest.
Did I forget to answer any questions that you'd like to know my opinion about? Let me know.
Greetings
Yah your list does cut down on some of the more pricy things bit. Whats the consensus on subbing a plateau for the volcanic? My on red sources are 2 wear/tear and 3 blasts in the board. running one mountain in the main + some other red land?Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
The second Volcanic Island is clearly superior to any alternative. Some lists that do play more than 21 lands are capable of supporting a third red source. As a Mountain loses most of its value in addition to two Volcanics I could certainly see you adding a Plateau instead of the third Volcanic, if your build relies on white a little heavier than the traditionals do. I still wouldn't rate Plateau as superior. It's equal, at best, if your list is, as I said, more white.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
So the best red-configs are probably:
1 Volcanic + 1 Mountain
2 Volcanic (low land count)
3 Volcanic (higher land count)
and maybe as a more or less valid alternative:
2 Volcanic 1 Plateau - with a heavy reliance on both, red and white
Greetings
Yea my manabase at this point is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
4 tarn
4 mesa
2 strand
2 mystic gate
4 island
2 plains
1 mountain
1 volcanic
2 tundra
I'm considering buying a pleateau instead of the volcanic as a budget alternative. Because man are those volcanic's pricy.
You'd be better off with a steam vents than a plateau I think. You will be fetching basic mountain against tempo or wasteland decks and against combo/control the life loss won't matter, but tapping for blue AND red will. Of all the budget cuts you could make in this deck vents over volc might the one with best badness-to-costsaving ratio.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
Steam Vents is easily better than the Plateau and might be better than the Mountain, depending on your setup. The more Ponders you run, the worse Mountains and Mystic Gates get. Even with double Karakas, two Mystic Gates is probably too many. One Mystic Gate is fine but it again conflicts with Mountain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
I am running the following setup:
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Karakas
I still haven't decided if the Mountain is worth it… I run 4 SB red blasts in my 75. I am thinking about SBing the Mountain and adding an Island main for consistency, but I don't know if that is worth it.
Been playing some more on MTGO and I find the biggest issues are
1. The clock. Being new to MTGO and Miracles it can be hard to win 2/3 games with the 25 minute timer. Opponents don't make it any easier and play out after Jace ultimate to run down your clock. I guess practice will help with this.
2. Burn. There seems to be a lot of it on MTGO and outside of quick Top- Counterbalance the match up is pretty miserable. The new Eidelon is super annoying. If you don't have the Plowshares or Terminus to kill it immediately it does quite a bit of damage and even then you take 2 damage if you Plowshares it. Sulfuric Vortex is also pretty annoying if it resolves. Council of the Absolute helps somewhat. Stoneforge for Batterskull isn't as effective as I thought it would be between lots of burn to kill Stoneforge and if you actually get Batterskull in play there is artifact destruction and as well as Sulfuric Vortex and Skull Crack.
3. Misclicking and clicking F2 to many times etc. I am still learning the MTGO interface. Its pretty clucky for the beta client and it really should list the top of the stack that X is about to resolve click ok if its ok to let it resolve. I guess this would come with practice also.
4. BUG Delver there is a decent amount of this online and Dark Confidant unless you counter it or remove it immediately it lets them quickly run away with the game. Hymm and Liliana are pretty annoying with Abrupt Decay hitting your Counterbalance. After board they get Null Rod or Needle to stop your Top which leaves you in top deck mode when they might have a Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library in play.
Any suggestions on how to improve the Burn match up outside of playing Leylines of Santity in the board which I think actually is not that great because you have to mulligan for them?
Also what suggestions do you have for the BUG Delver match up?
YamiJoey:
I disagree. Ponder is better then Preordain in that you get to see 3 cards and if you don't like any of them can shuffle. There is a reason Ponder is restricted in Vintage and Preordain is not.
I also like the main deck Mountain instead of the second Volcanic.
Bloodmoon would be nice in some match ups but you have to run multiples to draw one or the aweful card disadvantage Enlightened Tutor which takes up too much side board space anyway.
Sereon:
I tried Brian's list with the SFM main and a minor tweak to run Ponder instead of his Preordain and Mountain instead of the 2nd Volcanic. Stoneforge does have its benefits with less clunky hands with multiple miracles you have to mulligan and stoneforge for batter skull gives you an early path to victory and is better against burn but if your Batterskull gets countered you have a problem. Mid to late game Entreat the Angels is more powerful and a quicker win when there might be creatures on the ground.
I like your list other then no Council's Judgement main deck. I been finding it so good since it kills Jace, Liliana, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Sylvan Library.
How do you like Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierece. I am pretty afraid of early Liliana which Spell Pierce can hit.
Against Dredge I really want 3 Rest in Peace to increase the chances of drawing one.
Einherjer:
I suppose you could cut Spell Pierce for Council's Judgement since it does kill most things Spell Pierce hits other then I dislike getting hit by Hymm to Torach which Spell Pierce does deal with along with early Plainswalkers. Spell Pierce also is good against fast combo.
I been running the sideboard package of Stoneforges for a bit and like it. I tried a Brian's list with the main deck ones too and I like it but I actually miss Entreat the Angels since I usually have both still in after board with the build I was playing before.
I prefer Volcanic + Mountain for my Red sources. Don't like my Red source getting wastelanded and not being able to cast my Red Blast or Wear / Tear.
Don't like multiple Karakas either. I suppose if you play a lot of Show and Tell and Reanimator it might be but being Legendary Karakas are not good in multiples. We actually want each and every land to be able to Entreat for more Angels or play Jace/Batterskull with mana up for Daze/Spell Pierce.
My mana base is
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
Ltj999:
Plateau might be fine instead of Volcanic if your not running a Karakas. You really don't want to many lands that don't make blue since you want double blue early for counterspell sometimes.
Patrunkenphat7:
I feel Mountain is worth it don't like wasteland preventing me from playing a Red Elemental Blast or Wear and Tear.
Hey all,
So, I've been playing straight UW miracles for the last month or so, and now I finally got a hold of some Council's Judgments to try out. So it's time to change things around a bit. Thanks to all of you for your analyses on the card. I'm going to start out with 1 main 1 side, but since I don't play red I'm thinking I might even want to go up to 3 in total. Anyway, I also have some other changes in mind that I'd like some feedback on. So, my list until today is:
Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
7 Island
3 Plains
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
1 Detention Sphere
3 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Baneslayer Angel
This set up has been working nicely lately, with Back to Basics pulling an amazing amount of weight (I won a match against 12post!). However, I want to make some room for the Council's Judgments, and I think that warrants some additional changes.
The metagame I'm playing in is currently devoid of combo. I'm not sure why this happened, but in the last 4 tournaments I haven't met a single Storm or Show and Tell Deck. This, plus Einherjar's analysis above, convinced me that I should be OK to remove the 2 spell pierces (which quickly become the worst card in the deck after a few turns). I've liked Counterspell a lot, so I'll be happy to try:
-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Counterspell
In the board the change is easier. Detention Sphere can easily go out for the second Judgment
-1 Detention Sphere
+1 Council's Judgment
So far so good. But now I'm thinking that these changes lead to some other changes I might want to make. Specifically, I think I want more snapcasters. When I first put together this list, I thought that I didn't have enough targets for Snapcaster to be truly good (especially since I don't run REBs). However, in the last little while, I've loved seeing my single snapcaster pretty much every time. My thinking is also that the addition of a third counterspell and 1 to 2 CJs (as well as the 2 flusterstorms, which I added recently) can justify more snapcasters. The question is how many?
I've been trying out Venser lately, and I haven't been as impressed with him as I would've liked. He's been OK, yes, but I always found myself a bit too short on mana to really do what I wanted to do with him. Either that, or I had him without Karakas and he was less than impressive. Plus, since I play 3 entreat, I find myself going for the win instead of something like a Venser lock. I feel like playing Venser requires some more commitment to that plan, in the form of a second one in the board and 2 Karakas. I'm not willing to do that, so I think Venser can come out for Snapcaster number 2.
As for the possible third Snapcaster, 1 of my 2 mainboard Vendilion Cliques jumps up as a possibility. As said before, currently combo is very very low around these parts, and Clique is more lackluster against the fair decks. Furthermore, as I said before as well, running 3 maindeck Entreats means that the clock aspect of Clique is less crucial. I'd still like to keep the 2nd clique in the board though, since when it is good it is very very good. I think I will remove the third Rest in Peace from the board, since I haven't boarded all 3 in a while (and I have a single tutor in the board for the matches where it really matters). So this leaves me with:
Main
-1 Venser
-1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Snapcasters
Side
- 1 Rest in Peace
+1 Vendilion Clique
So the final list then looks like this:
Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgment
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
7 Island
3 Plains
Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Back to Basics
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Vendilion Clique
OK, that was a long post, but I just wanted to go through my reasoning and get feedback on that. Thanks for reading if you got this far, and I look forward to any comments!
43
So I've been looking a reid duke's list. What are your thoughts about no main deck creatures and the two main deck relics? Was he really expecting so many graveyard based decks to main deck hate for it?
There might be something there. But I think what is more likely is that its just Reid Duke. He could have top 8ed with 59 forests and a grizzly bear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltj999
Burn is actually quite easy and i like to play against it. Maybe you board/ play wrong against it. SFM in the SB is the nail in the coffin in this MU. Just don't play him early if you have other plays available and/or can leave countermagic up. They won't save any Lightning Bolts for SFM and will throw them in your face. Play him when they have few cards left, which are then very likely artifact destruction and Blasts or whatever. I really like it when they board Artifact Destruction because they are super dead cards normally and when you have an active SFM and 5 mana you can play around it, even without Counterspells. Just don't feel like you are on a rush to slam that Batterskull down when you are at f.ex 10 life. Instead enjoy the timewalks when your opponent doesnt utilize his full mana every turn because he wants to leave 2 mana for the artifact removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianeira
Burn is pretty simple with access to SFM, but without SFM it's definitely a MU I'd rather avoid.
Draw dependent matchup.they just loose with an active counterbalance and top in payQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I have to admit i always feel kind of bad when i plow Goblin Guide :( Giving so much card advantage away feels kind of bad^^
First bunch of altered arrived today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Hopefully later this week I'll have more cards to show. I apologize for the bad quality of the picture.
http://i60.tinypic.com/eirp01.jpg
Eidolon easily pushes Burn's power level up a notch or two. Possibly good for the format as a whole, but it's definitely annoying for us. I'm not certain that Leylines are that backbreaking for Burn either.
Burn is a tricky one. Calling it a good MU is wrong. Calling it a bad MU is wrong too. It's one of those MUs that tend to be overly swingey. You could curbstomp all those Burndecks 2-0, but very well never manage to squeeze a win. The preboarded games are ridiculously draw-dependent. If you're having an early Top+Balance they're dead. If you don't, then they'll grind you out unless you manage to delay them long enough to Entreat for three or more.
All different lists have things that are very good, and others that are very bad against Burn.
My current 4 Ponder - version has the playset of Counterbalance, which is obv. bonkers - but the lack of Spell Pierces hurts a lot. A list packing many flash creatures and Karakas has the option to chumpblock a lot more while also threatening a quick change of tides concerning the eventual Sulfuric Vortex, Clique is actually pretty good at preventing this card from happening, and is pretty good at racing this thing, too. (pretty good as in "as good as it gets) But yeah, this version has no Ponders, so it is def. lacking this extra quality package of finding the right cards. And maindecked Blasts are obv. super bad too.
I think the list I like the most in this MU is the standard one, with like 2 Ponder and 2-3 Spell Pierce, alongside a healthy amount of Counterbalances and a mix of Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique.
I think that Councils Judgements influence is pretty high in this very MU, as it acts as an out to Sulfuric Vortex, which is huge. You should be boarding in all your counterspells, additional removal and artefact/enchantment removal while removing clunky spells and shaving numbers here and there. Using Goblin Guide to your advantage is key too, as additional cards equal an enourmous overflow of additional countermagic. So it's probably correct to not kill it on sight. If you are super hasty with your decisions (but remember - patience is key in pretty much everything) you can atleast net one trigger out of the Goblins by Swordsing it after you've drawn that land of yours.
Entreat the Angels is actually pretty good, even though it's clunky and slow. But if they are very well prepared for Counterbalance the 2mana enchantment won't win the game on the spot for the sideboarded games, so you actually need to close out games on the spot, and this is what Entreat is for.
Be aware of Price of Progress at any time. I still remember all that anger and that hate of those Burn players I've defeated with my different incarnations of UW after showing me their PoPs. I'd try to not even play a single non-basic, as 2 mana for 2 dmg isn't good - but might be enough for the lategame. And remember: PoP threatens Jace, aswell. - But if it isn't avoidable you shouldn't really stop after the fourth non-basic any a PoP will be lethal anyways and does present itself as a must-counter.
I don't think that this MU should be too troublesome. Neither from a standpoint of how the games play out, nor from the amount of Burn that runs around at tournaments. It might still happen, you can never escape variance to 100% but I think this small percentage is surmountable. Oh, and most Burn players suck anyways, so
Oh, and Terminus counters Fireblast via Counterbalance! :P
And... very nice cards Andreas Schnaas! Love them! It's a first step :D
As usual, let me know whether you agree or not!
Greetings
I've been somewhat mixed on Entreat in the MU. It will allow you to steal some games, especially if there's a Vortex on the field. At the same time, it can easily be lethal to tap too much mana against Burn; casting it EoT is no help either since many of their spells are Instant. Clique has been very good and I usually board out my Jaces. In my experience, your game plan almost always has to be CounterTop lock or bust and hope that you're able to quickly kill any Shushers they might draw. Perhaps with the addition of Eidolon, Entreat becomes better though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer