[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

@Plow Under: I wouldn't call 5-Mana spells "disruption". So yeah, you would draw a different 4-5 Mana spell there.


@Arian: Gratz. The Archangel has a lot of potential.

For the revising:
- the Rector package seems a bit off without any Rectors
- maybe play more Archangels? The cards seems almost good enough on its own and it has decent synergy with the deck. I think I would just go with the full playset and cut Yosei and Primeval Bounty.

random ideas:
- could a Rector/Moat thing with Archangel and Lingering Souls work? Like I said I am a pretty big fan of Lingering Souls. Souls and Archangel are both good cards on their own, they both fly over Moat and if Archangel puts counters on Tokens, that is nice too.
- Chord of Calling could also be an option for creature based combo decks. It competes with Living Wish. You have quite a lot of stuff laying around so the mana isn't too bad and the Instant speed is really amazing. It also improves the SB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

For anyone who cares, I top 8'd Mythic yesterday with the following Thunian Fit list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Primeval Bounty

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower

//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Volrath's Stronghold

3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nevermore
1 Batterskull


Matchups were Burn (lol), BWR midrangeish (gate shell with better removal, basically), U/R Doug McKay.dec (which I lost to, because Delver is good when you can't find a deed and your draws are subpar), and Esperblade (then an ID for r5, and a split for top 8).

Vs Esperblade we were in turns for g3...I was on turn 3, had a board of Finks, Finks, and Spike vs his Stoneforge with a Sword of F/F and Batterskull on it. He's at >20 life, I'm at 17. I draw Archangel of Thune for my turn. It resolves. I go infinite, and casually kill him. This is what Rector was missing all along. Admittedly it's a 2-card combo, so it still isn't quite as "oops" as Scapewish is -- but just having a game-ending combo in general is pretty boss. The list definitely needs a bit of revising and tuning yet, but I'm pretty happy with a top 8 on Thunian's maiden voyage.

---

Wow, I didn't even see the combo until you spelled it out. That is.. so Johnny I love it. Perhaps this is the direction GWB Fit needs to go? Solid Aggro with a surprise inherent combo. Is the one-of Diabolic Intent for solely Angel fetching?

What does Nevermore do for you?

Did Recurring Nightmare do enough work during this tournament?

Sick list, I want it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

Wow, I didn't even see the combo until you spelled it out. That is.. so Johnny I love it. Perhaps this is the direction GWB Fit needs to go?

---

On this page was our initial discussion about the M14 cards:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...rol%29/page234

Baneslayer is a solid card and I think that the combo potential is better than the difference in their battle stats. So yeah, Archangel might be a thing. Also @Arian, I love the addition of Sylvan Safekeeper.

For further brainstorming in the mana base a 1/1 split between High Market and Phyrexian Tower might be good. High Market + Archangel sounds like fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Qweerios

a) playing tempo, whereas it doesn't matter if you set him back 2 lands, they only need 1-2 to function and Plow Under is strictly win-more in that matchup, or;
b) playing a specific combo deck with no basics (T.E.S for example), in which case Plow Under is a terrible card because you will die before you can cast it.

When you can reach 5 lands and your opponent struggles with getting 2 in play while you are under no significant pressure because you can afford to cast a spell like Plow Under, it doesn't matter what you do really, that game is well in your favor...

---

Isn't the point of this deck to ramp ahead of our opponents so we can cast our more powerful spells? We should be getting to five lands on turn three regularly. On the play, that puts your opponent at two lands. Plow Under is effective against tempo because it gives them exactly what they don't want, land draws. They're not seeing any new cards, they're not out going to out tempo you because they're not getting the spells they need.

If we are dead against TES before we get to five mana, we didn't disrupt them enough to begin with and we were unlikely to win regardless of the spell. The fact that they don't run basics is great for our ramp strategy and doesn't do anything about Plow Under. The only lands you don't try hitting with Plow Under are ones that sac themselves.

Plow Under is disruption. It stunts your opponent's game. It isn't a Time Warp, but forcing your opponent to draw two lands they've already played over two turns is devastating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mono-Green

Isn't the point of this deck to ramp ahead of our opponents so we can cast our more powerful spells? We should be getting to five lands on turn three regularly. On the play, that puts your opponent at two lands. Plow Under is effective against tempo because it gives them exactly what they don't want, land draws. They're not seeing any new cards, they're not out going to out tempo you because they're not getting the spells they need.

If we are dead against TES before we get to five mana, we didn't disrupt them enough to begin with and we were unlikely to win regardless of the spell. The fact that they don't run basics is great for our ramp strategy and doesn't do anything about Plow Under. The only lands you don't try hitting with Plow Under are ones that sac themselves.

Plow Under is disruption. It stunts your opponent's game. It isn't a Time Warp, but forcing your opponent to draw two lands they've already played over two turns is devastating.

---

I love your zeal for Plow Under. It makes me want to reconsider it, because people don't usually like cards if they underperform. Testing should decide its worth, not rhetoric. If you say it works for you I have no reason to not believe you.

Do you recall any specific matchups where it boosted you ahead when you should not have been able to?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

I love your zeal for Plow Under. It makes me want to reconsider it, because people don't usually like cards if they underperform. Testing should decide its worth, not rhetoric. If you say it works for you I have no reason to not believe you.

Do you recall any specific matchups where it boosted you ahead when you should not have been able to?

---

My opponent was playing Esperblade and one land away from dropping Jace. I had been able to rip his hand earlier with Therapy and Thoughtseize but he managed to draw him afterwards. I Plow, he draws and plays his land. I GSZ a Witness grabbing Plow Under. He draws and plays his land again. I Plow Under once again. My draws at this point have been Deed and Decay, not too helpful. I had Sigarda in hand and needed another white source to play her. He continues to replay his lands. I finally draw my white source and play Sigarda. My next draw was Stronghold, when I showed him I could loop Plow Under a couple of times by Decaying and Deeding my Witness and then drawing it with Stronghold he showed me the Jace he was holding. His next two draws if I never Plowed were a counterspell and the land he needed to cast Jace.

Obviously, this is an almost ideal situation, but it's far from magical Christmasland. I also had two dead draws, or at least what appeared to be dead draws until Stronghold showed up. The idea behind Plow Under isn't that you are denying them mana, it's that you are denying them new cards while you continue to build on your ability to win.

I am pleased with how it has worked for me. I'll continue to test it out; maybe it isn't the right direction to go. I can tell you that after reading people buy into Panoptic Mirror and Deadeye Navigator, and now Archangel of Thune, it's hard to believe that Plow Under isn't given more of a chance.

By the way Christmasland is turn one Explorer, turn two Tower sacrificing Explorer into an unchecked Plow Under. Turn three play Stronghold and Witness grabbing Plow Under. Loop until your opponent dies to Witness attacking every other turn or your opponent getting frustrated that he hasn't played anything worthwhile in the first two turns that will win him the game.

I am done arguing about Plow Under. If you want to play it I can't stop you.

Lingering Souls is amazing. My approach to Thunian Fit would be this:

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Archangel of Thune
3 Spike Feeder
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lingering Souls
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

I think I like the High Market idea, although lowering by one Tower also reduces the explosive starts, which -can- matter since this version doesn't have the density of ramp creatures that Scapewish has.

I'm not sure that cutting Living Wish is correct, though. Having the g1 access to hate cards can allow you to steal wins vs combo by hitting them before they're prepared to deal with the bears, being able to wish for extra copies of combo pieces is pretty good, not having to worry about something getting surgicaled, etc.

Regarding the Rector bullets without Rectors....I dunno. Primeval Bounty is capable of winning games entirely on its own. With Bounty online, dead draws no longer happen, which is something that -can- otherwise plague Nic Fit. Lategame Explorers represent a 1/1 + a 3/3, +6 possible life. Lategame Therapies give a creature +6/+6 permanently. Etc. Nightmare is obviously still Nightmare. It still does the broken. My thought process was that mid-game, one should be able to Top into them, and then they are each capable of taking over the game. Plus, with Diabolic Intent, you can always tutor for them if you actually need them for something. Note that I never actually tutored for one of the non-Deed enchantments, though.

Varolz was the actual nut high. Multiple games, I was scavenging things onto Sigarda or scavenging Explorers onto Kitchen Finks to reset their persist. I did not expect to be scavenging nearly as much as I ended up actually doing, and the mechanic definitely overperformed. Diabolic Intent was also quite excellent. I also missed Thragtusk quite a bit, and he'll definitely be going back in. I kind of figured that with all the lifegain already in the deck that Thragtusk wouldn't really be necessary, but he ended up being something I missed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

I am done arguing about Plow Under. If you want to play it I can't stop you.

---

No you can't stop me from play testing it; no more than I could convince you that the Archangel deck is fun but too campy to be a legitimate deck.

Speaking of campy I've shuffled my list around.

Creatures:11
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Genesis
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Armada Wurm

Artifacts:3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sorceries:15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls

Instants:3
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments:3
3 Pernicious Deed

Others:3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:22
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

I'm still running Plow Under, but replaced them for this list to gather more constructive criticism than ire over a small portion.

Talk of Lingering Souls and adding more Liliana made me look at what changes I wanted to make to my first list. While it had some explosive plays it lacked consistency. Most of my wins came while I was behind. And most of the time I lacked sufficient pressure to keep my opponent on his toes.

I haven't had a whole lot of testing, but so far it's been great. Genesis came to mind when I started to think of ways to make Liliana's discard uneven. The first thing that popped into my mind was Madness decks from way back. In the end I decided against Arrogant Wurm and the rest of the madness lineup.

Tweaks I'm already thinking about are dropping the Deeds. It's been quite a balancing act with all of the tokens this list produces. In their place I'm looking at either spot removal or Garruk. I'm thinking of a two-one split between PH and Relentless. I really like Relentless as pseudo removal, token generator, and sac outlet... But he's prone to get bolted and there are plenty of those around. If I went with that split I'd take out the tops and put in spot removal.

Thoughts?

When I saw Archangel of Thune and Academy Rector, Birthing Pod immideately appears in my mind.

The card is not quite powerful in Legacy's standarts, but widespread abuse of Abrupt Decay makes it more reliable now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mono-Green

No you can't stop me from play testing it; no more than I could convince you that the Archangel deck is fun but too campy to be a legitimate deck.

Speaking of campy I've shuffled my list around.

Creatures:11
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Genesis
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Armada Wurm

Artifacts:3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sorceries:15
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls

Instants:3
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments:3
3 Pernicious Deed

Others:3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands:22
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

I'm still running Plow Under, but replaced them for this list to gather more constructive criticism than ire over a small portion.

Talk of Lingering Souls and adding more Liliana made me look at what changes I wanted to make to my first list. While it had some explosive plays it lacked consistency. Most of my wins came while I was behind. And most of the time I lacked sufficient pressure to keep my opponent on his toes.

I haven't had a whole lot of testing, but so far it's been great. Genesis came to mind when I started to think of ways to make Liliana's discard uneven. The first thing that popped into my mind was Madness decks from way back. In the end I decided against Arrogant Wurm and the rest of the madness lineup.

Tweaks I'm already thinking about are dropping the Deeds. It's been quite a balancing act with all of the tokens this list produces. In their place I'm looking at either spot removal or Garruk. I'm thinking of a two-one split between PH and Relentless. I really like Relentless as pseudo removal, token generator, and sac outlet... But he's prone to get bolted and there are plenty of those around. If I went with that split I'd take out the tops and put in spot removal.

Thoughts?

---

I don't even know you, and you already went out of your way to offend me. The Archangel deck is MINE, Tao just gave some thoughts on it. But now that you've sucked me into your little Plow Under war, come back and talk to me when you have some results. A couple top 8s will suffice. You gave your idea, it was dismissed. The burden of proof is on you, now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mono-Green

Tweaks I'm already thinking about are dropping the Deeds. It's been quite a balancing act with all of the tokens this list produces. In their place I'm looking at either spot removal or Garruk. I'm thinking of a two-one split between PH and Relentless. I really like Relentless as pseudo removal, token generator, and sac outlet... But he's prone to get bolted and there are plenty of those around. If I went with that split I'd take out the tops and put in spot removal.

Thoughts?

---

Cutting Pernicious Deed? You cant be serious. Its one of the most insane cards in the deck. Ecxplorer ramp into deed into wincon is wha the deck is about. Removing the deed from the deck makes me wonderif you really know what nicfit is about.
But then again... Who am I to disallow you to make such a drastic change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I don't even know you, and you already went out of your way to offend me. The Archangel deck is MINE, Tao just gave some thoughts on it. But now that you've sucked me into your little Plow Under war, come back and talk to me when you have some results. A couple top 8s will suffice. You gave your idea, it was dismissed. The burden of proof is on you, now.

---

I assure you no offense was intended and I certainly didn't go out of my way to incite such a response. I'm aware that the Archangel deck is your current baby. I still don't think the deck will hold out very well. Like your Panoptic Mirror and Navigator builds, which I read about thoroughly when doing my due diligence on this archetype, I think it is a flashy exciting deck that will likely catch opponents by surprise, but will likely never end up being a deck to beat in Legacy.

As far as your top 8 comment, I congratulate you on yours. I was hoping for one of your more thorough recaps. I enjoy reading game interactions as I can glean quite a bit of information from them. I'm still in deck construction and play testing, hence my posting two deck lists recently. I certainly could use some more constructive criticism there. When I take the deck to a tournament I'll certainly give a recap of my own, top 8 or otherwise. I'll be man enough to admit if Plow Under isn't as good as my play testing has led me to believe. I just ask that if I don't make top 8, people don't readily assume they were right about my card selection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XdeckX

Cutting Pernicious Deed? You cant be serious. Its one of the most insane cards in the deck. Ecxplorer ramp into deed into wincon is wha the deck is about. Removing the deed from the deck makes me wonderif you really know what nicfit is about.
But then again... Who am I to disallow you to make such a drastic change.

---

I'm entirely serious. I wouldn't consider removing it if I didn't have a reason. In this case, it's because this version of the deck leans quite a bit on Lingering Souls. Unless I've landed another serious threat, popping Deed takes out a very strong portion of the deck. It becomes a very interesting balancing game on whether or not I can race my opponent, force him to over commit, or make an even trade by blowing up the board.

Deed is a powerful card, and one of my favorites since the original Rock deck, but I don't think it belongs in token heavy build like the one I presented. I might not fully "know what Nic Fit is about," but I do know Deed is anti-synergistic with tokens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mono-Green

I assure you no offense was intended and I certainly didn't go out of my way to incite such a response. I'm aware that the Archangel deck is your current baby. I still don't think the deck will hold out very well. Like your Panoptic Mirror and Navigator builds, which I read about thoroughly when doing my due diligence on this archetype, I think it is a flashy exciting deck that will likely catch opponents by surprise, but will likely never end up being a deck to beat in Legacy.

As far as your top 8 comment, I congratulate you on yours. I was hoping for one of your more thorough recaps. I enjoy reading game interactions as I can glean quite a bit of information from them. I'm still in deck construction and play testing, hence my posting two deck lists recently. I certainly could use some more constructive criticism there. When I take the deck to a tournament I'll certainly give a recap of my own, top 8 or otherwise. I'll be man enough to admit if Plow Under isn't as good as my play testing has led me to believe. I just ask that if I don't make top 8, people don't readily assume they were right about my card selection.

---

Fair. You also had the unfortunate luck to catch me in a really bad mood today, so I probably took your comments as being more personal than they were perhaps intended.

I will note, though, that the failures of the Mirror builds in particular are one reason why I'm less "fuck yeah, brew" than I used to be. I acknowledge the possibility of failure, and my usual course of action these days is to suggest a possible build, then test it and run it in a few events before actually saying "yay" or "nay" regarding it.

Deadeye was a failure not because the deck didn't work -- it did -- but because it didn't do anything new. There's a big distinction there. It did work, it just didn't work for what I wanted it to work for (vs combo decks), which is why I scrapped it.

At the core, Thunian Fit is an update to Rector. Rector had a lot of fans in here, and I think that Thunian is the spiritual successor to Rector. Giving it an actual infinite combo is what the deck needed, and it also turns the Scapewish matchup into a crapshoot. It's whoever combos first -- and that's fine with me. I could never come up with a reason to run any other Nic Fit over Scapewish because none of the other versions were actually capable of beating Scape. That isn't true anymore.

And as for a deck to beat / tier 1 deck -- Nic Fit will never be a DTB/T1 deck. I've explained this several times in the past. We can get pretty near to the top of t2, but we're pretty close to incapable of broaching into t1.

- For Panoptic Mirror I do think it has the necessary potential. The interaction with Time Warp is powerful enough to be a possibility, at 5 mana it is not too expensive and most decks can't kill it. About Deadeye I think the same as about Plow Under, they are bad cards and I don't think either has any chance of ever becoming good.

- Archangel of Thune is imo better than all these cards. Not sure if it is good enough because it is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares and because Spike Feeder isn't a premium creature but overall I think Angel has a lot of potential.

- I agree with xdeckx on Deed. We have all been there and all came back to running at least 3 Deeds. It just cleans up so much random shit.

@Monogreen: May I ask WHY you insist on making White your third color? And why you insist on "White but no Rector"? I don't quite understand it so far. Last list had Sigarda and two 6-drops, this list has Sigarda and Lingering Souls. Like I said your builds are good and synergetic in general but I feel that you limit yourself with forcing yourself to play White instead of exploring (no pun intended) other options.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

could never come up with a reason to run any other Nic Fit over Scapewish because none of the other versions were actually capable of beating Scape. That isn't true anymore.

---

I don't know in which world the Nic Fit mirror is the deciding factor for choosing your deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Fair. You also had the unfortunate luck to catch me in a really bad mood today, so I probably took your comments as being more personal than they were perhaps intended.

I will note, though, that the failures of the Mirror builds in particular are one reason why I'm less "fuck yeah, brew" than I used to be. I acknowledge the possibility of failure, and my usual course of action these days is to suggest a possible build, then test it and run it in a few events before actually saying "yay" or "nay" regarding it.

Deadeye was a failure not because the deck didn't work -- it did -- but because it didn't do anything new. There's a big distinction there. It did work, it just didn't work for what I wanted it to work for (vs combo decks), which is why I scrapped it.

At the core, Thunian Fit is an update to Rector. Rector had a lot of fans in here, and I think that Thunian is the spiritual successor to Rector. Giving it an actual infinite combo is what the deck needed, and it also turns the Scapewish matchup into a crapshoot. It's whoever combos first -- and that's fine with me. I could never come up with a reason to run any other Nic Fit over Scapewish because none of the other versions were actually capable of beating Scape. That isn't true anymore.

And as for a deck to beat / tier 1 deck -- Nic Fit will never be a DTB/T1 deck. I've explained this several times in the past. We can get pretty near to the top of t2, but we're pretty close to incapable of broaching into t1.

---

Rector was the list I was most excited about. When I read how poorly it was positioned I immediately went to a Rock version I'd be comfortable playing.

The main reason I don't think Archangel will work is its easily disrupted. Spike Feeder can be targeted and killed via widely played Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay after the first counter is removed. Kitchen Finks can be removed via Deathrite Shaman once persist triggers. Be both creature based and needed at least two turns to set up are what make me think it will not work out in the long run.

On being a deck to beat, never is a long time. Who knows what the future brings. Theros has an enchantment sub-theme, maybe Rector lists will be brought back into power.

Super stoked about Thunian Fit, going to probably get the cards soon and put together a list for testing! Living Wish being able to get a host of super relevant lands such as: Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Wasteland, Phyrexian Tower, and others--along with hitting creatures like Angel of Despair and any combo piece / maybe even some choice creatures like Thrun, the Last Troll or Sun Titan out of the board.

Sounds kinda awesome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XdeckX

Cutting Pernicious Deed? You cant be serious. Its one of the most insane cards in the deck. Ecxplorer ramp into deed into wincon is wha the deck is about. Removing the deed from the deck makes me wonderif you really know what nicfit is about.
But then again... Who am I to disallow you to make such a drastic change.

---

Cutting Pernicious Deed is actually way more reasonable than you think. It isn't actually a necessary part of the deck. It is a decision we default to because it is so versatile and is such a reliable catch all. Deed is simultaneously the most useful and most useless card in Nic Fit.

Cutting Deed is not reasonable. The right number for any version is somewhere between 3 and 4. It is a great card that does exactly what the deck wants to do.

I do like the thune/ feeder idea a bit. (I am working on that in modern with pod).
I still can't get away from rector, however. I had tried the junk walkers for a while but meh on it.
So have seriously considered Armada Wurm as the green 6 drop yet?
Also, anyone going to be scg mpls in a few weeks?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jbone2016

Also, anyone going to be scg mpls in a few weeks?

---

I'll be there. Either playing RUG Delver or Scapeshift, depending on the meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

I don't know in which world the Nic Fit mirror is the deciding factor for choosing your deck.

---

Success breeds imitation. There have been upwards of 4-5 Nic Fit players per turnout on occasion in my area. When you add in the Sneak/Omni/storm/etc other bad matchups, it definitely got to the point where playing non-Scapewish Nic Fit (at Jupiter especially) was suicide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

- May I ask WHY you insist on making White your third color? And why you insist on "White but no Rector"? I don't quite understand it so far. Last list had Sigarda and two 6-drops, this list has Sigarda and Lingering Souls. Like I said your builds are good and synergetic in general but I feel that you limit yourself with forcing yourself to play White instead of exploring (no pun intended) other options.

---

I play with White as my third color because I've long been a GBW Rock player. I'm comfortable in the way those colors play. I much rather play something I'm comfortable with rather than what I'm not. As far as not playing Rector, it was mentioned quite a few pages back that it wasn't quite as good right now as it needs to be. I could easily put a list together, but I figured I'd take a crack at a more standard Rock type list and see where it takes me.

I'm not forcing myself to play White, I'm choosing to play White.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mono-Green

I play with White as my third color because I've long been a GBW Rock player. I'm comfortable in the way those colors play. I much rather play something I'm comfortable with rather than what I'm not. As far as not playing Rector, it was mentioned quite a few pages back that it wasn't quite as good right now as it needs to be. I could easily put a list together, but I figured I'd take a crack at a more standard Rock type list and see where it takes me.

I'm not forcing myself to play White, I'm choosing to play White.

---

Hahaha I understand you :)
I love GWB Control Rock. Look how I rocked the Nightmare-Yosei-Combo in 2006 in GWB Rock Survival (one of my two favorite decks EVER). That was fun, good memories.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ll=1#post90518

The Red cards function basically the same way that White cards function in GBW control rock. Huntmaster is Loxodon Hierarch, Punishing Fire is Swords to Plowshares and you get some awesome Red Blasts and Slaughter Games to fight Combo decks. So you don't have to fear to be too uncomfortable with it.

A few thoughts:

Don't cut Deed. Just sayin'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jbone2016

Also, anyone going to be scg mpls in a few weeks?

---

Unfortunately work is preventing me from making it. Sad panda. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mono-Green

I play with White as my third color because I've long been a GBW Rock player. I'm comfortable in the way those colors play. I much rather play something I'm comfortable with rather than what I'm not. As far as not playing Rector, it was mentioned quite a few pages back that it wasn't quite as good right now as it needs to be. I could easily put a list together, but I figured I'd take a crack at a more standard Rock type list and see where it takes me.

I'm not forcing myself to play White, I'm choosing to play White.

---

White needs an engine. Be it Rector, Archangel, whatever, it needs something. The problem with using white to play the Rock is that it's just worse than red at doing so.

Also, Kevin, love the new deck. Seems super sweet. Can you PLEASE name it something else? No offense but Thunian Fit sounds incredibly lame. Also, that's a ton of 5 drops; the proper number of angels is probably 3. You could then shove one into the Living Wish board if you so desired.

Hello all I'm new to this thread but have played scapefit for awhile now, just been creepin the forum till now. I'm gearing up for my first scg and it the Philly scg Sept 8. Just wondering what to exspect the meta there to look like so I can start having my playtest group proxy up some decks. I've played against almost every major deck in legacy n I honestly only fear storm and even that match up doesn't seem to terrifying. Thx

Updated the OP. Feedback welcome.

Good job on the primer! A much needed improvement from the previous one. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

Aside from the threat of counters, is it ever *wrong* to just run a Sigarda out onto the field? Realistically, unless your opponent has a flying beater of equal size, how can the opponent really deal with it?
The only cards that come to mind are Ensnaring Bridge, Terminus and Supreme Verdict (and Miracles is not much of a deck anymore). I don't know of many decks running Damnation or even Wrath of God.
Do you folks reach for her first when you cast GSZ?
Forgive the excitement, I just got my first copy in the mail today. :X

Some more questions:
1. Glissa: worth it? waste of a slot? She dies so so easily but is quite the efficient creature.
2. Scavenging Ooze: MB or SB? When does this card suck?
3. Would you say 1 Fierce Empath is enough to support x2 Sun Titan?
4. What, besides Deed, would you consider all-star in conjunction with Sun Titan?
5. I've been testing 4x Therapy 4x Hymn. I'm not sure if this is correct. Hymn DOES buy time though, which I think is the goal for us. Is MB Duress a thing?

Thanks badasses.

I personally really enjoy ooze main deck it usually doesn't show up by itself but if it does it's fine and the times you really want need it its great to have that access available. Also, one empathy for two titans should be fine, usually you only need one to win. In terms of cards that are silly with sun titan deed usually just wins the game, but eternal witness and fetchs with tops are also very effective.

I went 1-2-1 today with Angel Feeder (best name I can think up). Drew with RUG, Beat Shardless Bug, Lost to Merfolk, Lost to RUG.
Went off twice with the combo at 1 and 3 life. Also smashed in with a 20+ power Sigarda another game, courtesy of bounty.

My thoughts:
Safekeeper:, eh. Never actually cast him. I know it is a safeguard for the combo but needs more testing.
Sun Titan: As much as I like deed shenanigans, non-combo piece hurts a little.
Rector targets without rector: It can work. I didn't actually get a rector to stick to use as a tutor
Ooze: I miss the little guy.
Protean Hulk: Instant combo win, perhaps?

I'll give another report after this Saturday's tournament.

Has anyone thought about how nasty haunting echoes can be in this deck as a burning wish target? I run one I'm.sb and its backbreaking for numerous decks when it lands. Also sowing salt. I run those in scapefit instead of 2 duress in the sb and I can tell u they r phenomenal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cadaver

Has anyone thought about how nasty haunting echoes can be in this deck as a burning wish target? I run one I'm.sb and its backbreaking for numerous decks when it lands. Also sowing salt. I run those in scapefit instead of 2 duress in the sb and I can tell u they r phenomenal

---

Echoes been discussed repeatedly in this thread. Its cute, but not worth a slot. Why pay more mana than scapewish costs for a card that doesn't win on the spot. My foil old frame Haunting echoes is sad, but its true.

Sowing salts has also been discussed a lot. Its worth a slot if turbo eldrazi is played more than usual in your meta, if not its pretty bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hymntotourcock

Aside from the threat of counters, is it ever *wrong* to just run a Sigarda out onto the field? Realistically, unless your opponent has a flying beater of equal size, how can the opponent really deal with it?
The only cards that come to mind are Ensnaring Bridge, Terminus and Supreme Verdict (and Miracles is not much of a deck anymore). I don't know of many decks running Damnation or even Wrath of God.
Do you folks reach for her first when you cast GSZ?
Forgive the excitement, I just got my first copy in the mail today. :X

Some more questions:
1. Glissa: worth it? waste of a slot? She dies so so easily but is quite the efficient creature.
2. Scavenging Ooze: MB or SB? When does this card suck?
3. Would you say 1 Fierce Empath is enough to support x2 Sun Titan?
4. What, besides Deed, would you consider all-star in conjunction with Sun Titan?
5. I've been testing 4x Therapy 4x Hymn. I'm not sure if this is correct. Hymn DOES buy time though, which I think is the goal for us. Is MB Duress a thing?

Thanks badasses.

---

Sigarda is only a 5/5. Sometimes a goyf outraces her, and geting a thragtusk would have been better, but if your board state/life total are ok, go for it.

1. Some people have tried it but none kept it around. Too cute and dies to all removal in the format.
2. In GB or GBw "junk" nic fit, I like 1 maindecked.
3. If you have 2 sun titans, I dont think empath is even needed.
4. Liliana of the veil, finks, witness. That said, if you uptap with a sun titan you probably won and dont really need to put more cards in your deck on the justification that they are cute with sun titan so if you dont already have a really good reason to run finks or lily, dont. That said, I actually do like lily in those lists.
5. Duress is meh, we aren't ad nauseum and can actually have tons of ways of getting life back. Play thoughtseize. Double black shouldnt be a propriety till later in the game. Personally, in GB or GBw I'd run 4 therapy, no hymn, 3 thoughtseize.

I see what your saying. I have a lot of turbo eldrazi and lands.Dec in my meta so echoes n salt help those matchups a lot.

Then salt I can justify, but 95% of the time you COULD wish for echoes, you could just wish for scapeshift (maybe having to wait a turn for a land drop) and win.

Yea salt has been doing work for me. Nothing worse than facing a glacial chasm lock with scape in hand lol

Yeah. I have a german foil Odyssey Haunting Echoes -- trust me, I really wanted it to actually be good enough. It really isn't. I tried to force it as a Wish target, where it was horrid. I also tried to force it as just a "I'll board this in as a bomb vs control decks" plan, and that failed too. Definitely not worth the slot, which saddens me on some level. But, there needs to be a line drawn between good vs cute SOMEWHERE.

I'll be playing an updated/revised Thunian tomorrow in a local event. We'll see how my changes do.

Hey guys. Brand new here to the Source and to Nic Fit as a deck.

I was thinking about joining the Nic Fit forces, but I really need help with deciding on an actual build. Im a combo player at heart, and i love the interactions that this deck and do with Academy Rector. If i was to build a version of nic fit, it would use her.

Arianrhod's Angel Nic Fit piqued my interests greatly. Grats on top 8 with maiden voyage.

I also like Voice of Resurgence in this deck...but since I'm super noob with the deck, as well as a bit overwhelmed with all the possible builds and interactions, is it worth it to play? Or to just play either Kokusho or Yosei. No one has really given me a straight forward answer...

I also like birthing pod in this deck. But again, is it good enough?

Here's what I've come up with so far...
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Cabal therapy
2x Birthing Pod
Xx Academy Rector
1x Recuring Nightmare
3x Deed


Input and general help needed. Thanks!

You'd end up killing your own Voice with Deed way too often. The idea behind the creature base is: creatures with low CMC are generally expendable so when we sac Deed we either benefit or don't care much. I don't think Voice is even necessary.

The problem with Voice in this deck is that it is a bit of a nonbo with deed along with the fact that the match ups where it shines are already decently in our favor (think RUG Delver or BUG). Thus, most players opt for more bullets or ramp in those slots. In terms of Yosei vs. Kokusho it all depends on how much you plan on abusing rector. Yosei is more of a momentum change for the deck than Kokusho (which simply ends the game more quickly). As a newer player to the deck I would suggest Kokusho instead of Yosei simply because in my experience a lot of my games went to time and if I had Kukosho instead of Yosei I could have ended those games. Once you get a better handle on the deck and its interactions I would suggest switching.