[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

You can green sun for dryd arbor so that's a good why. What deck did you meet? If I met Rug delver, mull but agansit strom keep.

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My opponent was on Elves. Though I didn't know that until his Birchlore Rangers opening.

I ended up keeping the hand. Went Mox - > Shaman turn one, then GSZ for Arbor - > Teeg. He nearly overwhelmed me a solid second turn Glimpse chain but by the end of the game Teeg stranded two Natural Orders and a GSZ in his hand and Punishing Fire took care of the little green men.

Looking back I should have shipped the hand. The major reason for keeping it was I noticed I have been aggressively mulling. Since tracking both mulligans and win/losses I've wondered if I was overly aggressive. Looking back I certainly shipped decent hands while searching for more ideal openers.

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Originally Posted by Mono-Green

I ended up keeping the hand. Went Mox - > Shaman turn one, then GSZ for Arbor - > Teeg. He nearly overwhelmed me a solid second turn Glimpse chain but by the end of the game Teeg stranded two Natural Orders and a GSZ in his hand and Punishing Fire took care of the little green men.

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Holy lucksack, Batman.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

Holy lucksack, Batman.

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Yep. That's how I felt.

While I have been too aggressive with mulligans, the hand in question needed a lot to go right for it to work. I'm thankful it did, but variance won't always be on my side.

On a different note, I've been considering Hymn as an addition to the 75. Still debating on what I would move for a couple of copies.

I'm looking to play this deck, transferring in from Dark Maverick and Jund Depths.

It looks like Miracles can be a problem matchup, but one piece of tech from Lands is 2x Smoke Stack to deal with their horrible Miracles matchup. It looks like it could do well here, what do you think? It largely hinges on Loaming back sacrificed lands.

As I'm learning more about this deck, what's the deal with 3x Leyline? To hate out Dig Through Time and Lands decks?

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I'm looking to play this deck, transferring in from Dark Maverick and Jund Depths.

It looks like Miracles can be a problem matchup, but one piece of tech from Lands is 2x Smoke Stack to deal with their horrible Miracles matchup. It looks like it could do well here, what do you think? It largely hinges on Loaming back sacrificed lands.

As I'm learning more about this deck, what's the deal with 3x Leyline? To hate out Dig Through Time and Lands decks?

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Miracles is not a problematic MU in my opinion. We attack from quite a dew angles and their answer G1 is usually Entreat or Bust. Now if you are talking about Mentor Miracles things turn more rough. Still, with my limited testing, I think is a good MU.

Loam is not a critical part of the deck, while smokestack is a great card, it might help them more than us. If you think you need a game changing card, I would rather go to Choke/Cataclysm(a bit white heavy for us)/Games.

The 3 Leylines are great against Storm, Reanimate, Lands and some variants of Grixis Control. Also key if you happen to play the mirror.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

Now if you are talking about Mentor Miracles things turn more rough. Still, with my limited testing, I think is a good MU.

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Agreed. Entreat Miracles was one of my best matchups. Mentor Miracles is significantly more pain in the ass, but is still by no means a "bad" one.

Also, I think his Leyline question wasn't regarding what we use it against, but why we use it over something like Rest in Peace. And the simple answer to that is "process of elimination".

We like having a graveyard (which boots Relic and RIP out of contention). Nihil Spellbomb is a terrible card. And while I don't really feel like being able to bypass Chalice is a necessary requirement when considering graveyard hate, an inability to bypass Chalice in fair matchups will significantly hamper the effectiveness of utility cards like Surgical Extraction. So, once you throw those out, Leyline becomes your only real option.

I have given a little consideration to a singleton Gravedigger's Cage, but Leyline continues to hold the sho slot because it does so much more against scary things like Lands.

I actually like Nihil Spellbomb a lot, but not in a Chalice deck for fairly obvious reasons. I think the combination of Zenith targets in the main and leylines in the side is pretty much perfect.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

Leyline becomes your only real option.

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What about Bojuka Bog and Tormod's Crypt? Aren't them really worth it?

@DukeWellington

Regarding Tormod's Crypt, I think we prefer having a constant hate against GY strategies. I also do not like it as much in storm since we drop CotV@0 quite a few times. I currently am trying a 2 Leyline/1 Containment Priest Split, Since I am struggling quite a bit against post sideboard Reanimator and not as much against Lands/Storm.

Bojuka Bog is a fine option and I ran it religiously for a couple of months, but makes your manabase worse and makes you keep Knight untaped with fear of the combo turn when you need to put pressure on the opponent.

@Pilhas: Thanks for the answer. I Think you gave solid reason to both exclusions.
It's just that leylines feel so cluncky... :tongue:
I never bring them in against grixis, nor the control version. I really don't want to increase the risk of dead draws (with 29 mana sources and multiple chalice / loam / library, I feel we have quite enough of them!) for a card that could be good but doesn't win on the spot.

About the Mentor Miracle matchup: after some testing, I found it between even and good for us.
However, I'm always embarrassed when it comes to side in. I feel we have plenty of good side-in options (wishlist: golgari charm (2x), toxic deluge, reclamation sage, choke, thalia, sulfur elemental/dread of night, slaughter games) but I don't know what to cut. With few exceptions (maze, ooze, 1x loam), our md cards seem all too good to me!

In previous posts, I read about cutting Punishing Fire and some Moxes: I really disagree. Fire is awesome against mentor (if we can do recursion, at some point it would be undefended; meanwhile, it's perfect to kill monk tokens), and we always want to see Moxes to set quick pressure. They also help a lot to dodge Daze, imo one of the most bothersome cards against us.

What do you think? Any suggestions? (considering a quite standard decklist, i.e. Alsheimer's one at GP)

@DukeWillington
I also dislike it in the Grixis Control MU but the majority advocate for that. Only time I remember bringing it is when they have ~5 Delve creatures 4 Shaman and 4 digs.
If I don't see ~2 Delve creatures in the first game I usually do not bring them.

Against Mentor Miracles I usually cut 2xMox/1xMaze/1xLoam/1xOoze/1xDRS/1xLiliana
Not really sure if it is correct the Lilis cut, and recently, I cut the 3rd PFire more often than not.

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Originally Posted by DukeWellington

@Pilhas: Thanks for the answer. I Think you gave solid reason to both exclusions.
It's just that leylines feel so cluncky... :tongue:
I never bring them in against grixis, nor the control version. I really don't want to increase the risk of dead draws (with 29 mana sources and multiple chalice / loam / library, I feel we have quite enough of them!) for a card that could be good but doesn't win on the spot.

About the Mentor Miracle matchup: after some testing, I found it between even and good for us.
However, I'm always embarrassed when it comes to side in. I feel we have plenty of good side-in options (wishlist: golgari charm (2x), toxic deluge, reclamation sage, choke, thalia, sulfur elemental/dread of night, slaughter games) but I don't know what to cut. With few exceptions (maze, ooze, 1x loam), our md cards seem all too good to me!

In previous posts, I read about cutting Punishing Fire and some Moxes: I really disagree. Fire is awesome against mentor (if we can do recursion, at some point it would be undefended; meanwhile, it's perfect to kill monk tokens), and we always want to see Moxes to set quick pressure. They also help a lot to dodge Daze, imo one of the most bothersome cards against us.

What do you think? Any suggestions? (considering a quite standard decklist, i.e. Alsheimer's one at GP)

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By "Mentor Miracles" we're talking about these decks, correct?
('murica) http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17676&iddeck=133129
(esper) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=89171

Are we in magical christmas land with SB? Like you have a SB dedicated to this MU (basing this on what you say is in your SB most likely). Or did you want card-for-card Christoph's list.

Aggro Loam // Christoph Alsheimer
Creatures [12]
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Instants [6]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [4]
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Life from the Loam

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts [8]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Lands [25]
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Choke
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage

@Pilhas: I agree this is hard. I am under the impression Aggro Loam could drop Liliana because there are too many tokens (especially Esper variants). If anyone owns Tabernacle, that's an easy swap for Maze. Everything else I think you just try to shave as much as possible. IMO, the priority SB merchandise are the 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Slaughter Games (nails their key spells). Thalia is "okay". You leave her more or less naked on the table. UWx can easily handle her and move forward. Choke is hit-or-miss. Also curious about how others handle the cuts.

According to Schonegger's article, Kronberger and co. are taking out the Tabernacle for a Sulfur Elemental, and going to 1/1 split between Canonist and Thalia as a result. Although it doesn't deal with the Mentor, a Dread of Night for Monks seems good.

What decks do you side in Thalia where Ethersworn Canonist can't be better? Jag saw one game at GP lille that had a Thaila in a matchup ending up hurtig himself more the oppoment.

Thalia in the SB has been awesome I cannot really imagine playing without it. Bring Thalia in vs any combo deck, Miracles, stoneblade for sure. I also bring it in vs any deck playing pyromancer, since thalia usually trumps any creatures they are playing and their 30 1-drop deck is usually hurt a lot more by thalia than we are. Cannonist is only really useful vs combo.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Thalia in the SB has been awesome I cannot really imagine playing without it. Bring Thalia in vs any combo deck, Miracles, stoneblade for sure. I also bring it in vs any deck playing pyromancer, since thalia usually trumps any creatures they are playing and their 30 1-drop deck is usually hurt a lot more by thalia than we are. Cannonist is only really useful vs combo.

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I see what you mean against Pyromancer decks having to pay more mana per spell, but couldn't you also just play Canonists against PY decks to limit their shenanigans to 1 spell per turn? Living the dream against that deck is Thalia AND Canonist on top of all the toys the deck already packs. I can't help but agree with @Ganfar about Canonist being better.

If your pyro opponent has curved out at 3 lands, they are probably not casting 2 spells a turn anyway. Canonist still allows them to make 2 tokens between untaps (one on their turn, one on ours). Thalia also is better in combat and interacts positively with karakas and wastelands. It is also more general hate because it is live against non-stormy combo decks like reanimator.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Thalia in the SB has been awesome I cannot really imagine playing without it. Bring Thalia in vs any combo deck, Miracles, stoneblade for sure. I also bring it in vs any deck playing pyromancer, since thalia usually trumps any creatures they are playing and their 30 1-drop deck is usually hurt a lot more by thalia than we are. Cannonist is only really useful vs combo.

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I think to sidebored Thalia vs miracles is not good. They have lots of more lands and most of them are basic. It was that match I was talking about in GP lille, aggro loam vs Miracles where Aggro loam hurt himself more playing with Thalia then Miracles. I have try the same with my deadguy ale deck and it was only bad for me. Maybe is good then you get her out turn 1 with a hand of lot of lands and miracle player have few lands.

Thalia can slow the game down but Miracles win in the late game.

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

Thalia can slow the game down but Miracles win in the late game.

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Miracles actually does not win in the late game. In the late game they can't beat Punishing Fire or Loam. Their counterpart to this is Jace brainstorms, which is worse than what we are doing for obvious reasons. Miracles basically wins this matchup with their turn3-5 plays or with our mistakes.


That being said, I no longer play Thalia againt Miracles. I used to when I was newer to the matchup because an early Thalia can really fluster them and make it hard for them to keep up with us. These days tho I have a bunch to put in against miracles and not much to take out that Thalia often does not make the cut.

You definitely have to be careful with how you use her. She is much easier to mess up with than canonist. Sometimes the correct play is to keep her in your hand against a fair opponent because she will hurt you more. Sometimes you want to play her and trade her away after a bit to cast that zenith or w.e. She is a more powerful but a more difficult to use card.

Edit: the miracles matchup was a bit of an oversimplification, but I find myself overwhelmingly favored after turn 6 or so as well as in the early game

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

I think to sidebored Thalia vs miracles is not good. They have lots of more lands and most of them are basic. It was that match I was talking about in GP lille, aggro loam vs Miracles where Aggro loam hurt himself more playing with Thalia then Miracles. I have try the same with my deadguy ale deck and it was only bad for me. Maybe is good then you get her out turn 1 with a hand of lot of lands and miracle player have few lands.

Thalia can slow the game down but Miracles win in the late game.

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As someone who actually plays miracles mostly, this is not a good matchup if the game goes long and thalia or teeg + karakas are part of the reason why. An unanswered mentor or entreat are pretty much the only way miracles can beat thalia or teeg and a karakas. Thalia is annoying and disruptive by herself, with karakas she is even better. However, in a deck that could cut a lot of cards against miracles, I would still play thalia even if she was half as good as she is because more creatures vs miracles is always good.

Thalia is a lot better than a lot of people realize. The problem is, when she is being disruptive, it looks like she isn't doing anything. If you want to see all the work that thalia is a given matchup, you need to play the matchup from both sides and then talk about it after. Thalia makes people play their spells very differently. They still get to cast things, don't expect her to lock anyone out of a game, but she basically cuts blue players velocity in half. Thats a big deal.