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For those of you not already in the know, Cavern of Souls is the real deal. It's extremely powerful against the Delver decks and EsperBlade. It improves the deck a lot, but right now I'm frightened that people will start preparing for Goblins once again and perhaps bring scary cards like Engineered Plague once again.
I just stumbled over that card: Torch Fiend
R1
R, sack him: destroy target artifact.
2/1
Problem: Creature-Devil
Why couldn't they just print it as a goblin. I mean sure the theme is devils and humans and zombis and werewolfes and stuff. But in a world full of strange creatures like that goblins shouldn't be hiding...they love stones whatever plain they are in...and they break things...they should destroy artifacts. I mean we're playing red-artifacts shouldn't be a problem.
Well maybe "return to ravnica" brings an updated version of TSH.
I haven't tested it yet but I have no doubt that its the real deal. It just seems so strong against blue decks. The deck imo can be tuned to beat everything outside of combo now where esperblade and stuff was tougher before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
Seriously, you don't have anything to worry about. As an Aluren player, I used to have to worry about splash damage from Goblin hate, but E. Plague is just too narrow of a SB card any more. Good to see Goblins making a come back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
So I am starting to brew my new and improved Carvern Goblins list now, and one the main things I am wondering is: Do I still play 4 Vial, or do I go down to 2-3 Vial, or do I cut Vial entirely from the deck? It is tempting to cut Vial entirely and add some fast mana like Chrome Mox. Not so much for making the whole deck uncounterable (and I can't rely on drawing Cavern anyway) but for speed. Turn 1 uncounterable Mox Instigator seems to good to pass up. (Well they can counter the Mox, but I guess I am OK with that). Any other ideas for fast mana, or thoughts on the Vial issue?
Aether Vial is still the best reason to play Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
If you want to play a fast/explosive deck, combo and Burn are just much better at the job. I don't think it's worth going away from what makes Goblins powerful.
The most surefire path to victory with a Goblin deck is a T1 Vial or Lackey. Cutting Vial isn't a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hof
Tourney Rep
Yesterday i got home from work and saw that I had some cards in the mail. Opened em up and what happened to be there? Oh yeah, Cavern of Souls mutherfuckers. Since yesterday also happened to coincide with the Den's weekly Legacy tourney I sleeved 'em up and headed out to play.
The List
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
12 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
2 Warren Instigator
2 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Pyrokinesis
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Zurn Orb
2 Anarchy
I made a few quick changes to my list when I added Cavern of Souls. I figured I would be casting more Goblins so I wanted to play some Warchiefs (to enable hardcasting gobbos). Having more haste enablers is just amazing. If you have some lands in play and some cards in hand haste enablers allow you to refill the board like crazy after a sweeper. So I brought in 3 Goblin Warchief. I cut the 2 Tarfire I used to run and the third Warren Instigator to make room for them. With Warchiefs in the deck Tuktuk Scrapper becomes better, and Kiki-Jiki wasn't pulling his weight, so I put a 2nd Tuktuk in. And since I was planning on getting more goblins in play Gempalm seemed to be a good choice, supplemented by Fanatic and Pyrokinesis. So I upped my Gempalm count to 3, thinking 2 Pyroks and 2 Mogg Fanatic should give me enough answers to early threats and Gempalms can help take over the mid-late game.
R1 Sneak and Show
G1 I'm on the play and see a lousy 7, an unplayable 6, a landless 5, then keep 4 with a Warchief and Ringleader and 2 lands. Whoopi.... I play a land a turn while my opponent plays Islands and cantrips. T3 I cast the Warchief. T4 I cast Ringleader which gets Forced. I draw a few more Gobbos and my opponent just keeps cantriping, finding nothing, and I somehow manage to pull the win out of my butt. Weird game.
At this point I don't actually know he's playing sneak show. I think it might be Hive Mind or Snaek show because he played Volcanic Island last game. Either way, I board in 2 REBs.
G2 On the draw I have a solid 7. I land a T1 Vial, then Vial in a T2 Lackey. T2 I Waste my opponent's Ancient Tomb. He Intuitions for Emrakuls in response. T3 he casts a Show and Tell. I Drop a Matron, he drops Emrakul. I tutor up Stingscourger. My t3 I tick Vial up to 2, activate it for Stingscourger, targeting Emrakul. My opponent points out that Emrakul has protection from colored spells. I point out that he doesn't have protection from colored ABILITIES. I've bounced many an Emrakul in my day. Lackey connects and my opponent scoops, saying he went for the wrong line of play when he Show and Telled Emrakul in instead of Sneak Attack. He's probably right, but if he had limitted R sources I still could have used Stingscourger to stall him for a turn. W
R2 UR Delver
I mull to 6 on the draw and keep a hand with Pyrokinesis, Sharpshooter, Mogg Fanatic and Gemaplm and 2 lands. It has a T1 play and ways to control the board for a few turns while I draw into something relevant. So i keep.
G1 He plays a T1 Vexing Devil. I can't deal with it with what's in my hand, so I take the 4 and he sacs it. I lead with Fanatic on my turn. T2 he topdecks a Thunderous Wrath and I'm already at 11 life. I start bashing with Fanatic on my turn and use Gempalm to ice a Delver on his turn. He plays another Vexing Devil when I have 4 lands in play and a Seige gang in hand. I let the Devil stick and I rip a land the next turn and cast the SGC. He attacks me with the Devil, and I chump block and hold onto my Pyrokinesis for later. On my turn I attack him with SGC, Mogg Fanatic, and 2 tokens. When he attacks me with Devil his next turn I sac a token to SGC and pop the Fanatic to kill it. After that I was able to ride out the SGC to victory.
G2 He bashes me with Goblin Guide and another miracle Thunderous Wrath. I finally manage to burn out the Guide and land a Warchief followed by Chieftain. I go for the beatdown and win the race at 6 life. W
R3 BUG Control / Deedstill / wahtever you call it
I personally think this deck is sweet and seriously underplayed. Lilliana, Life from the Loam, Pernishous Deed, manlands, counterspells, Brainstorm. This type of deck has to have decent matchups against everything in the field.
G1 I was on the draw and mulled to 6. He led with a manland. I led with Vial. on my T3 I has Vial at 2, 3 lands, and Matron in hand, and Lackey in play. He had 3 lands, one of which was a Mishra's Factory. I cast the Matron off of Cavern and grabbed a Stingscourger, attacked with Lackey. he activated Factory, so I vialed in Sitngscourger before blocks. People usually shortcut when they activate manlands to block, and remember it's perfectly OK to rewind the game to before blocks are declared to burn out/bounce potential blockers. Lackey connected and chated SGC in. With the tempo lost from having a land bounced my opponent couldn't get back in the game and scooped.
G2 my opponent landed a Vedalken Shackles, while I had been clever enough to side out both of my Tuktuk Scrappers. I have found many times over that leaving at least 1 utility goblin in is the safer bet than assuming you can side all of them out. I ran 2 Tuktuk, 3 Gempalm, 2 Piledriver, etc., so I really should have focused on shaving off 1 of each while sideboarding rather than taking all of my Tuktuks out and leaving myself exposed to artifacts. After a few turns under the Shackles it was clear I wasn't going to win, so I scooped. I definitely sided a Tuktuk back in for game 3.
G3 was Cavern-tastic. Even though my opponent landed a Standstill I used the time it provided to build up to 7 cards in my hand and 4 lands in play. I then busted Standstill with an uncounterable Warchief and started smashing face. He played a Deed. i played more goblins, including Instigator, and bashed in. I cheated a bunch of Ringleaders into play which forced him to spend all his mana blowing up Deed. I then just played some uncounterable hastey dudes from my stocked hand and swung in for the win. W
I had always assumed BUG had to be one of the worst MUs for us, since they have so many sweepers and crazy removal. Turns out Cavern blanking their counterspells means they're no longer able to control the board after a sweep, which allows Ringleader to get us back in the game. I talked to my opponent after the match about how relevant Cavern was. He said it was very relevant, and I believe him because he cast Counterspell on an Aether Vial around T7, just because it was the only thing he actually could cast a counterspell on. Cavern added tremendous value this game.
R4 GBw Explorer
G1 I was on the play and mulled to 6. I lead with a Lackey which he Path'd. Path to Exile is possibly my favorite removal spell, because we can always grab a Mountain off it. T2 he Cabal Therapied me twice. T3 he Cabal therapied me again. But he hardcast all the Therapies, so his hand was just as empty as mine at this point. We were both in topdeck mode from early on, and I was able to deal with the threats he played. Eventually he landed a Lilliana. When he got it to 6 I hit 5 lands and cast a SGC. He used Lilliana's ultimate, giving me a choice between my 4 creatures or my 5 lands. i picked my lands and proceeded to play a Chieftain, then Ringleader. When he played a Veteran Explorer I killed it with a Mogg Fanatic in my main phase so that I could ge the value of the lands before he could. I used those lands and a Warchief to fill the board and swing for the kill.
G2 I overpowered him without taking any damage. W
4-0
The past couple tourneys I've played in have been fairly unsuccesfful, so it felt good to put up a strong showing again. Cavern was hugely relevant against RUG Control and Warchief made a big impact against Pernicious Deed. The deck felt solid. 20 Lands in a MonoR build feels like enough. Gempalm added excellent value and kept threats under control and opened the board for lackey/Winstigator. Overall, the deck performed very well.
Thanks for the report jrw1985 and congrats on your win!
A couple questions:
I've recently cut Piledriver from my own list in favor of Mogg War Marshal. Do you find yourself using Matron to find Piledriver often, or does it just show up as an extra threat on occasion? I was finding that Piledriver was either a dead draw or very "win more" whenever I had it.
Cavern of Souls and 20 lands - I see that you didn't really face any Wasteland decks (except maybe that BUG list?). Did you happen to notice if 4x Cavern ever left you in a position where you would be blown out by a Wasteland? Additionally, did you find Cavern to be a liability in non-control matchups, or was it always essentially a mountain with a potential upside?
Piledriver is simply the most efficient beater in the deck, and also your only real chance of ending the game in a hurry. I do often find myself Matroning for Piledriver, like whenever I just need to end the game (the turn before combo goes off, the turn you Waste a Glacial Chasm, Anarchy a Moat, or Tuktuk an Ensnaring Bridge). Any time were you have a 1 or 2 turn window to win the game, Piledriver is a huge help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davran
Caverns were never a liability. It did get wasted once or twice, but Waste only matters when you don't get any creatures in play. The deck still runs 12 basics, lackey, and Vial. Getting Wasted out is not something to be overly worried about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davran
I've always been a fan of Goblins and tend to follow the thread cause the reports are usually good reads (especially ScatmanX's).Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Pretty good read man. Your list looks really sick. Mogg Fanatics seems like good choices as meta-tech when they can blank namely Grim Lavamancers and Mom's, both which see a lot of play Moms in Maverick/DnT/UWx Tempo variants, as well as Lavamancer in UR Delver/RUG Tempo/Burn.. and obviously Delver which can provide UR Tempo with a pretty aggressive clock. Obviously it also helps in the Dredge matchup, which is currently DTB. Would you run more copies or was 2 enough copies?
Have you considered running additional Stingscourer's in the board? Given the current DTB, you're sure to encounter Reanimator and SnT quite a lot and Scourer is quite good in those matchups. I'd think maybe additional copies in the post-board would be pretty good in that case, if you can find the room.
Granted, Mindbreak Trap is conveniently immune to post-board Inquisition's against TES but are you finding that that's enough to stop storm combo? If they get Duress's instead then you aren't going to be happy with Trap. Perhaps a more permanent solution would be better. I was thinking that Cavern enables you to run bears that you wouldn't be able to run normally. Vial also allows you to play such cards. For example, if you let them Ad Nauseam, and draw a bunch of shit, wait for them to get to low life, then Vial in something like Cannonist, and then swing for the win when you pass back to your turn. Cavern enables you to play Cannonist on your own turn, and its not like it slows you down much when you have Vial to bypass it, and Lackey/Instigator effects to cheat creatures into play without actually casting anything. Just a thought if you want to take advantage of Cavern in an innovative way (no idea about its efficacy though).
I'm guessing Chalice has further application as a permanent solution against Storm combo, cutting them off from 0's or 1's, ideally.. as well as against Burn. Would you board this in against Reanimator as well? I'd think cutting them off from 1's would be great. No cantrips, no Reanimate, no Entombs. Thats pretty huge.
EDIT:
My bad, apparently Reanimator isn't DTB anymore.
Thanks! =]Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Imo his list is good, but might be missing more removal. Don't know how reliable Tarfire gets with only 12 Mountains, so maybe additional Fanatics could be nice. And the 2nd Stingscourger too. He is that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
His SB seems well fitted to fight combo. 4 Traps, 2 CotV, 2 Surgicals and 2 Reb are quite enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I'd not bring in CotV against Reanimator. It makes you lose ReB, Surgical and others, while your opponent could Entomb in response, and have a Exhume or Animate Dead. Tested and it was not worth it.
@Cannonist: Never thought about it. Maybe someone could give it a try and tell us how it goes. =]
Here is promsied report. I thought it would be bigger tournament (last time 52ppl) but now only 34. I played my classic list.
1. Punishing Maverick
G1 I double fanatic his two moms and drop vial. He is manaflooded and I quickly outnumber him with mwms.
G2 I kept good hand with vial and relic. Unfortunately vial got destroyed by qasali, at least he provided me lackey at end of turn. I pressured him with mwm and chieftain but knight let him find grove and punishing fire slowly began to eat my army. I then made huge mistake not to block unprotected knight with echo-paid mwm ( I thought that it wouldn’t matter anymore since mwm was my only creature and he had mom, noble and aven) but turn before death I topped cosmic ringleader into double piledriver, mwm and gempalm after i calculated it I was two damage short.
G3 Again two fanatic keep, now their targets were mon and hiearch off zenith. He tried stonforge but I had tuktuk waiting for it. After some time he got mana flooded, really don’t remeber how but I killed him…
1-0
2. Sneaky Show
G1 he SnT into progenitus on second turn, there was nothing i could do…
G2 I went with vial while porting him, he then pyroclasm my board and on 6 lifes he drop sneak attack into emrakul…and again…
1-1
3. Nic Fit
G1 he starts with explorer and me with vial. Then second explorer entered game, well i killed them both, make ton of mana+four ringleaders = infinite goblins.
G2 I kept low mana hand and hoped for expoler to appear, but he didn’t. I try some mwm with chieftain but his kitchen finks and stranglefoot geist are pain in ass. Not to mention how good they are with therapies. Then birthing pod appeared and turned his finks into thrun and then titans…
G3 And now most epic game of day (took about over half hour and my graveyard exceeded my library).I kept hand with vial, krosan grip but fetch or green source. He statrd with sensei and then expolrer. I try to be aggresive but my chieftain went plowing. At least I drawed green source and destroyed top… Then again geist and witness(for top) appeared. I matroned for sgc and played sharpshooter cause i wanted to pin him down. Sadly shooter got pulsed and when sgc joined my team when pernicious deed took everything from me(he had finks with counter). Well I tried it again with ringleader that brought me lackey,laceky, mwm and fanatic. Birthing pod showed himself once again and of course not alone but with reveillark (witness->deed)so everything in graveyard hoped back into game, oh and don‘t forget black titan came form library. At this point I really wanted to cry. But I drawed gempalm, so decide to drop everything and gempalm titan. After some thoughts he crack pernicious on one which would be good play if he didn’t forget about fanatic which dealt sixth damage to titan. After that we just attacked each other. It would be exhaustive to describe whole match (plus I don’t remember it that well) but it longed at leasr next 8-10 turns and I managed to kill him by one life…
2-1
4. Helm of Awakening combo
G1 I start with lackey. Only card my opponent showed was ponder before sgc with port comes into play.
G2 my opponent is really manascreved and even 3 brainstorm didn’t helm him find third land.
3-1
5. RUG delver
G1 I mulligan into hand with vial which met fow. So next two turns with only two land I tried to stick piledrivers, he kill first and daze sencond.Meanwhile he played delver and flipped him. Third piledriver in row made it through, thanks to him i could gempalm two newcomer delvers. Sadly no answer for first delver and tarmogoyf. My last attempt (ringleader) met with two last cards in his hand – fow …
G2 again mulligan into lousy hand with no one drop. He drop two mongooses and two gouyfs and completely destroys me.
3-2
6.Maverick
G1 quick start with lackey, fanatic on his arbor, and drop sgc, he scooped.
G2 he began with worst enemiy of goblins - two mother of runes in first two turns. I led with vial but thanks to them I couldn’t attack before chieftain got in play. I got him under pressure but goyf and cannonist slow hordes of my goblins. After some desperate looking attack he dropped down to 2 lifes. My turn with four 1/1 (with fanatic and hooligan on hand) and hin with 2*mom and 2* cannonist looked almost solved. Well, I would win it, if tapped correctly for hooligan. Yep, I tapped taiga and port, I didn’t care about land at this point since I had like eight of them, just grabbed taiga and land next to it, and my opponent didn’t notice it either, but judge standing right behind me did.
G3 I was on play and mulled to 6 which were pretty bad (2*wasteland, mountain, fanatic, ringleader and something) but my opponent weren’t good either(he kept 2 wasteand hand too). I wasteland his only colored source and eventually kill him through his only one goyf.
4-2
I was lucky and as only one with 12 points hit top8.
Top8 reanimator (same guy as in last report)
G1 turn one entomb into elesh, second turn reanimate…gg
G2 I mulled into 5without hate. It was pretty much same scenario as in first game, but I managed to return elesh with stingscourger. He SnT her into play next turn.
And that’s it. 8th place, grabbed city of traitors and went home. Thath day I made some crucial mistakes, that needs to be improved. For next tournament I will make some changes in sideboard – blood moons were never really played, dunno what will replace them. How many caverns would you play with G splash? My manabase: 4 wasteland 3 port 4 scalding tarn 4 wooded foothills 2 taiga 5 mountain. I’m not planning to buy them, but maybe some crosses my path…
posting a decklist would help :)
also, whats our general gameplan + sideboard strategy against nic-fit? I've always had problems with what to do in that matchup so if anyone would be kind to elaborate, it would be nice, thank you in advance!
Here you are:Quote:
Originally Posted by movingtonewao
4 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
3 rishadan port
2 taiga
5 mountain
4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 mogg war marhall
3 goblin piledriver
1 tin street hooligan
1 stingscourger
4 goblin matron
4 goblin chieftain ´
4 gempalm incinerator
1 goblin sharpshooter
4 goblin ringleader
1 siege-gang commander
Sb:
1 tuktuk scrapper
3 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
2 pyrokinesis
2 blood moon
2 relic of progenitus
3 leyline of the void
If you're going to run Leyline of the Void you just need to buck-up and run the full 4, hombre. Why decrease your chance of getting Leyline in your opening 7 when that's the only way it can be useful for you? Especially when you're running 2 more GY hate slots anyway. I know Relic is more useful against G decks, but you're decreasing your chance of landing a bomb against Dredge to increase your chance of drawing a situationally useful card against aggro decks, which seems wrong. Leyline absolutley sucks and I hate it with a passion, but it is a house when it's in your opening 7. You need to commit to it and just ask it to move in with you, all 4-of it, and make sure not to flirt with other GY hate cards too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri8
In your report your G1 against Reanimator you seemed to buckle under Elesh norn. Did you never get to cast Stingscourger on it? Reanimator pretty much hates having creatures bounced. This is also a good scenario for me to pimp Cavern of Souls. Using Cavern to guarantee resolving important spells like Stingscourger can put you right back in the swing of things under these situations. Will you be adding Cavern to your build?
Like I said, that sideboard need some changes, for example blood moons were really underwhelming. I will probably just up grave hate to six (4leyline, 2 relic) because those are never dead cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I tried lackey centered hand but matron never appeared, I even tried to cast ringleaders to draw it, but he had fow in hand so it was futile.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Of course I would like to have 2 or 3 of them, but I bought playset of LEDs and couple of TES cards not so long ago, so I'm broke :(
Really liked your list (MD), and made me want to build something similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri8
Though I'm enjoying my removal-heavy list, there's something I don't like about it: Absence of a good 2 drop paired with few Warchiefs. That means that, if Lackey gets to connect, I don't have any goblins to play on turn 2. The plan of holding removal up is fine, but it makes you so much slower then dropping a Piledriver/MWM/Instigator...
Also, that list makes me wonder if Warchief is better for it than Chieftain. I'll build and play some games with it (manabase -Ports, + Caverns, -1 MWM, -2 Chieftains, +3 Warchiefs, +1 Kiki(21 lands total)) and see how it does. I miss being explosive...
hi guys there is something buzzing in my head that i d like to share with you. I m trying to think whether there is a way to cope with oppenent's spot removal. Try to imagine a metagame without swords to plowshares and bolts. Never again spending 5 mana for SGC when the guy in fron of you gets rid of it with one mana. lackey and warchief surviving as long as you want unless they get countered. Oh wait! there is cavern of souls for that now. Protection from counters (cavern of souls) and protection from removals = happy aggro dudes
so i tried to look in the "literature" for things giving protection to dudes. Without splashing colors i found that Apostle's Blessing could be a candidate. Such a card would compete with some sloths for removal of course. Is that worth? well... I don t actually know, however, it does at least one thing that removal must do in a goblin deck: allow lackey to connect on turn 2. Moreover, it doesn t care if the opponent has hexproof/shroud or if the opponent' s dude ass is too big to be burned. It also require only a COLORLESS mana meaning that it is port/wasteland friendly. Is it more important to save the ass of your dudes or burn the ass of your opponent' s dudes? I think it is worth a testing. The big drawback of course is that it is not a goblin but again pyrokinesis or bolt are not goblins either...
Another thing is that if you have piledriver on board and you topdeck this you may have a sort of ops I win condition.
Pushing this further: what would you like besides that your dude gets immune to spot removals and counters (cavern of souls)? well... it would be nice to give all my dudes protection and it would also be nice to have a greater chance against combo MD. They printed it but requires white splash: Faith's Shield.
It is not a goblin and it requires white splash :frown:
Anyway here there are a list of situations I can think of:
-lackey will connect in cases where it would have been hit by a removal or the dude in front was too big/unburneable
-piledriver will hit for the win
- all your 1/1 or 2/2 will hit for the win
- your opponents taps out thinking to hit you for the win. You give protection to you/your dudes and attack for the win next turn
-warchief and SGC will actually stay on the board
-opponent' jitte will not get counters
-tendrils of agony? fireblast for the win? lol.
-Ringleader will reveal it and you have to put it on the bottom on the library. If it was a tarfire it would have got to your hand.
- you have the chance to get mana screw
Thoughts????
I don t know you but i m getting excited about this. I ll do some testings with Faith's Shield and Apostle's Blessing and I ll let you know if I get something good out of it. My removal MD package is the following:
4 fanatics
4 gempalm
1 Stingscourger
2 pyrokinesis
I ll remove 2 pyro and 1 fanatic and let s see how it goes.
by the way, I got a playset of cavern of souls. Preliminary tests show that they are GREAT!. I wouldn t play less than the full playset, it has never been a problem to draw multiples and OFTEN you want to see at least one.
When splashing white for protection you could also play mother of runes, which is a serious one-drop, as scary as lackey and vial and gives you protection several times without loosing life.
As for the manabase you could go for 5 Fetches and 4 Plateau.
The thing is if you're splashing white I would replace tarfire with StP, which is also no goblin but taking care of SFM turn 2 and makes Eternal Wittness unable to get it back.
Still I think this is not going into the right direction...but go for it and try. My SB addition would be Retribution of the Meek.
I don't see any improvement in combo MU? If your permanents are protected and he plays Tendrils of Agony with Strom 11, what's going to change???