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Decided to reduce the number of Go for the Throat and added a Murderous Cut. Sometimes it could be awkward not being able to destroy that Revoker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Thinking about add the Null Rod as you said and drop a Disfigure. I'm gonna attend a pretty big tournament on Sunday (124 preregistered atm), you will hear from me.
Imo, you shouldn't play a murderous cut at all, as Disfigure kills the Revoker, but also will kill any infect creature turn 1, which cut does not. If you drop anything for a null rod, it should be a GftT.
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I'm a huge fan of murderous cut. I have been running 1 main for almost a year. It really helps in the D&T match up because it is an instant speed 1 mana removal spell. It also shrinks goyfs, kills most threats, is difficult for Miracles to counter all while taking my opponents by surprise.
I can easily say it has won me over a dozen matches that wouldn't have been winnable without it.
Ended 2-3 into drop. MUs weren't that favorable:
Ant 2-0
Junk 1-2 (lost on the 3rd additional turn)
Birthing NicFit 0-2 (lost to Dragonlord Dromoka and Orzhov Pontiff, seriously? I almost get there in G2 but suddenly appeared a Kitchen Finks carrying a Jitte...)
S&S 2-0
Mirror 1-2 (I had one last card in hand, TNN, he had one last card in hand, Deluge)
It's probably time to bring Hymns out of the binder.
After the last league i'm very very happy with my Hymn.
No reason to play Stifle in this meta, too many Eldrazi and Death & Taxes.
I love my 2nd turn bomb who can make our match too easy simply discard a random Seer or Prelate or other terrible stuff.
This meta is not meritocratic, and some random cards in add to Cavern of Souls (lol) can destroy a very good plan simply thanks to a not many skilled top deck.
By the way, vs control and combo is a good card.
May I see your actual list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
Here's my decklist to get some conversation going. This deck is selfish, to say the least. If i'm on the play, opening with creature + Land destruction (hymn for lands, waste, stifle) can usually
with the game. The issue with this deck was that on the draw it need 1 drop answers to my opponents 1 drop to stabilize before taking board control. Often on the draw, I found myself sitting with ponders in hand, where i'd much rather have a disfigure or another 1 mana spell that immediately establishes board control without costing me tempo first. So here's my deck; it's against the norm, but I think cutting ponders really makes sense here. Let me know what you think!
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
3 spell pierce
3 stifle
2 thoughtzeize
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
There is a lot of tension in this list, not the least of which is 18 lands with only 4 cantrips, rather than 8, since you cut Ponder. Indeed, there is a tempo loss to playing Ponder, but even the "truest" tempo deck in Legacy (RUG) still runs it. Why? Mainly because you need the consistency. 18 lands is simply not enough, especially when 4 of them are nearly "spells" as Wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by jnosrati
There is also a tension between the Stifles and Hymns, compounded by the multiple Spell Pierce. In this way, you are going to be asking yourself, "am I a tap-out deck" or "draw-go, holding up Stifle/Pierce." Both are good, but you'll rarely know which is better at a given time, unless your opponent tips you.
The mana base doesn't really do you any favors either, with multiple Bayous. While you are certainly going to want to open on Sea, the issue arises when you get your second land, especially if it is your only remaining land in hand. If you plan to play Hymn, you pretty much have to get Bayou, or else you cut yourself off Green with a second Sea. In this case, consider that you might want to dig for a third land, via Brainstorm (for example), if you had gotten that Bayou and you miss, you are now off Stifle for a critical turn, or off Pierce. It gets even worse though, because if you missed the third land, now you are spending two turns not drawing lands at all. If you tap out to Deploy a 'Goyf on the next turn, again you are shields-down.
Considering Thoughseize in place of Hymn does little to help the situation, because the need for UU/BB/GB doesn't really change, you are just changing the amount of mana you need, not the colors. You pretty much have to start on Sea and so the option of Trop to be on Green does not allow any flexibility to keeping double Black available. Indeed, considering starting on Tropical does you few favors, since it makes Disfigure not an option and, again, making double Black an issue.
The ability to set up Delver, dig for lands and/or shuffle is pretty key on Ponder. Sure, when you need action, Ponder looks pretty bad. When you are trying to straight tempo them, Ponder looks bad. But the reality is more that Ponder is pretty necessary. 18 Lands, 4 Brainstorm just isn't enough lands, from what years of Delver-players have found. Could they be wrong? Sure, but chances are they aren't.
Indeed, your list is off-the-beat. You'll no doubt catch people when you Stifle them on turn 1, then Hymn them on turn 2. Or start on DRS and have Hymn plus Pierce or Stifle on Turn 2. I can't help but feel that there are a ton more awkward draws in between though, because you aren't always going to start on DRS, or Delver. Sometimes you won't be able to naturally draw land 3 on turn 3, sometimes you won't have a fetch to go with Braistorm, etc.
I think all that can be said is to try it out and see how it goes. Maybe I'm wrong on everything and the list is great. However I see some issues as it is.
I think you're bang on the money and agree with all of your points. It can't be stressed enough how important Ponder is to keep Delver decks together. And the Stifle / Hymn anti synergy is very real.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
It's often remarked how BUG Delver has the "worst mana-base" in Legacy (mostly for Hymn/Liliana builds) and frankly it is probably true. What we arrived at with the 20 Land, 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou base is simply the "best it can be." It is also predicated on essentially 4 Ponder. One could probably get away with 3 Ponder, but below that, you are entering into some rather risky territory. I hypothesized that mathematically 19.5 Lands is probably ideal if you are playing 4 Hymn/2 Liliana. That also surmised you were playing against a goldfish. In the real world, you can't run half a Land and your opponent can be playing Wasteland too (not to mention Port) so the "extra" is needed, possibly even wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
This doesn't mean result won't be good in the short term. Indeed, running less Land and happening to draw well mean you actually have an advantage. The trouble comes when the case of the run goods, runs out. That's where Ponder comes in. It's a variance reducer. Sure, it is not a zero opportunity-cost variance reducer, but there is no such thing. Like you said though, Ponder is important; very important.
Ponder is simply the best cantrip in addiction to Brainstorm.
Without fetchlands Ponder is one of the best card you can draw in many situation.
He reduce variance and give you a good planning for next 1/2 turns.
Simply there's no reason to don't play it in a tempo shell.
Make a few changes in the BUG tempo anti miracles deck
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dismember
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Polluted Delta
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
4 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Go for the Throat
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Essentialy changed a Vendilion for a TNN, a Spell pierce for a Thoughtseize MD and a Pithing and the Dread of night from SB for darkblast and toxic deluge. What do you think? The idea is get a bit better vs non-blue creature decks
Quote:
Originally Posted by VERTUK
As previously I said, this list is too metagamized and, in my experience, do not work very well versus creature deck like Eldrazi. Your changes are right to face the non-blue creature decks but imho Tarmogoyf is the right beast for this meta because he is greater than the standard 4/4 or 5/5 Eldrazi, and is the right creature to face opponent Tarmo.
If I have to go in a tournament with Tempo BUG, i bring this list:
4 Tarmogoyf (or split with 3 Tarmo + 1 Gurmag Angler)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True Name Nemesis (or split with 1x Vendilion Clique)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
8 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
By the way, i would no bring Tempo BUG with Stifle today.
Imho in this meta, Hymn version is too strong.
Yeah you are right. My meta is lots of blue decks (tempo, miracles, ANT and SnT are the most popular), some lands and a few DnT (my nightmare xd) so i like the stifle build. For that i want to tune this version.
Well, Stifle version work better than Hymn into a meta with Storm decks.
Vs Miracle, Stifle and Vendilion can resolve Terminus.
By the way Miracle is not a BIG problem with your decklist: Mongoose, Stifle, Vendilion, Nemesis, Abrupt win the game. In G2 you need to be careful vs Monastery Mentor.
In Tempo mirror (RUG and Grixis, i suppose), Stifle could be a great weapon if played in the correct time.
I am pretty sure I posted about this 50ish pages ago but the only thing holding this deck back from being a good Stifle tempo deck in a Deathrite/DnT format is the lack of a T1 removal spell of Bolt's quality. You are better off gaining tempo with Spell Snare and additional Disfigure/Dismember than trying to play Stifle mainboard knowing you have 50% chance of going second. A T1 DRS throws a wrench in half of your gameplan and they don't even have to win the die roll for that...
Personally, I like the Mongoose build and I would like to see it played with more removal and counterspells over Stifle. I haven't played Team America in a while but now that Miracles and DnT are at an all times high I would play something like this:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Disfigure
2 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
Ahh if only Grim Flayer had Deathtouch instead of Trample...
Well, this is a beautiful dream: the defending player chose if sacrifice a creature (Tarmo, Eldrazi?) or give us the ability...Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
:laugh:
Good morning,
I've been messing around with BUG delver for a while and was looking for some input on optimizing the 20 land hymn version. My current list
9 Fetch
4 Seas
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 (Other creature, been using Gurmag, Leovold, Bob, or True Name)
2 Liliana of the Veil (Been debating going to 1 and adding dismember)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Any thoughts or suggestions on liliana/dismember split or creatures would be appreciated. I am trying to prepare the list for an open meta - I usually metagame hard locally.
In the open meta, 1/1 is probably better, since two Liliana is best versus Miracles and worse versus nearly everything else. You'll be a dog to Eldrazi regardless, but Dismember is better versus Grixis Delver. Frankly, if you aren't well prepared for Death & Taxes, Miracles and Grixis Delver, you are probably not going to be well positioned in the meta right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RStien321
I prefer 19 land in my Hymn lists, but I'm in the minority on that one. My starting 60 was almost identical the last time I played BUG Delver, with 0 Liliana, 1 Dismember, 2 Pierce, and 2 TNNs in the flex creature slots. I'm a little greedy, but the deck basically has to be. I also think that Eldrazi is a pretty favorable matchup.