Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lebarion
I fully agree with this statement. Since Noble Hierarch, and even more now with Deathrite Shaman, it is not easy to disrupt opponents manabase in the early game, and if both your and your opponent's games progress "normally", your opponent will have very good chances of overwhelm you. Of course, this deck has many other tools besides the mana denial plan, but without card selection or advantage, you don't always have the tools you want at the right time.
I know this is not something new and I don't mean this deck is bad. I've actually won some tournaments with it in the past. I think, however, that the current "most accepted" build is not well-positioned in the metagame, and new tools and strategies must be tested.
Well, i only see jund as a real problem because they play Deathrite shaman and lots of removal.
Other decks that use Deathrite shaman can't take care of RIP and Mother of runes for example as easily as jund and therefore we can either attack them on theyr manabase if they don't have anything to take care of RIP or just play the tax game with tempo as we usually do.
Game 1 vs Deathrite shaman is hard, yes. because we do'nt have RIP. after sideboarding it's much more manageable.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
Well, i only see jund as a real problem because they play Deathrite shaman and lots of removal.
Other decks that use Deathrite shaman can't take care of RIP and Mother of runes for example as easily as jund and therefore we can either attack them on theyr manabase if they don't have anything to take care of RIP or just play the tax game with tempo as we usually do.
Game 1 vs Deathrite shaman is hard, yes. because we do'nt have RIP. after sideboarding it's much more manageable.
Thus why the reason im asking if you guys tried main decking RIP now.., but even with RIP i still feel you will still encounter problems because they will board in more discards against you, being discarded by turn 1 and followed by another discard or hymn on the 2nd turn even if you land a RiP you will probably get behind in card quality then out board positioned eventually.
Tried running 3 rip main but i felt the deck is becoming too defensive and leaving you with small creatures and too equipment dependent, before you could somehow get away with it because abrupt decay wasn't available then, now with decay and can blow out your equips that strategy becomes very fragile and weak. I feel running solid creatures right now is the way to go, if only DT could somehow power out baneslayer angel nicely it would be nice.
Im also considering running jotun grunts again, but overall i feel DT must find a way to make deck more aggroish because late game the mangara lock is not going to be reliable as compared to before bec mana denial is somewhat hard to accomplish with DRS running rampant. Im still contemplating to cut stoneforge mystic count to 2 and 2 equips, freeing up 3 -4 slots for dryad militant.
I know revokers and thalia are components of DT and its mana denial package, but now with DRS running rampant and the meta slowing down and heading towards the mid to late games, would you think decreasing there numbers to 2-3 and adding late game bombs like:
• baneslayer angel
• calciderm
• hero of bladehold
• sublime angel
• elspeth, knight errant
Basically what im trying to say is do we improve our late game by adding bombs or early game by add 1cc creatures so that finishing off opponents will be easier like what delver does for other decks.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
This is random - but I saw some people mentioning SB choices against burn.
As someone who had this deck for awhile (Before selling half my karakas to feed my transition into Junk)
I'd like to recommend a card I haven't seen really talked about and I personally didn't even know before a player way better than I recommended it.
Warmth
1White1Colorless Enchantment
Whenever target opponent successfully casts a red spell, gain 2 life.
Seems better than any of the creatures answers and even COP:Red
Plus it can be a one of as a part of the Eng lightened Tutor plan.
Hoping to get enough cash to buy back into this deck (selling the pieces was a mistake).
Good luck D&Ters.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
Thus why the reason im asking if you guys tried main decking RIP now.., but even with RIP i still feel you will still encounter problems because they will board in more discards against you, being discarded by turn 1 and followed by another discard or hymn on the 2nd turn even if you land a RiP you will probably get behind in card quality then out board positioned eventually.
Tried running 3 rip main but i felt the deck is becoming too defensive and leaving you with small creatures and too equipment dependent, before you could somehow get away with it because abrupt decay wasn't available then, now with decay and can blow out your equips that strategy becomes very fragile and weak. I feel running solid creatures right now is the way to go, if only DT could somehow power out baneslayer angel nicely it would be nice.
Im also considering running jotun grunts again, but overall i feel DT must find a way to make deck more aggroish because late game the mangara lock is not going to be reliable as compared to before bec mana denial is somewhat hard to accomplish with DRS running rampant. Im still contemplating to cut stoneforge mystic count to 2 and 2 equips, freeing up 3 -4 slots for dryad militant.
I know revokers and thalia are components of DT and its mana denial package, but now with DRS running rampant and the meta slowing down and heading towards the mid to late games, would you think decreasing there numbers to 2-3 and adding late game bombs like:
• baneslayer angel
• calciderm
• hero of bladehold
• sublime angel
• elspeth, knight errant
Basically what im trying to say is do we improve our late game by adding bombs or early game by add 1cc creatures so that finishing off opponents will be easier like what delver does for other decks.
I'm not sold on this. I mean, If we play 4CC cards that improve late game, with double white requirement, we will be vulnerable to counter decks, to mana denial and to combo decks early game. I mean, against us, deathrite shaman is not worse than a bird of paradise or a noble hierarch (Of course, the two other abilities can sometimes be significant, but they require a certain color of mana and can therefore be attacked by our mana denial plan). To be honest, i don't fear it really. Most games i've played recently have been against DRS and I did not loose because of it. THalia kept slowing down opponents, Flickerwhisp allways came at the right time to out tempo my opponent. Of course i lost games, but i would not say it's because of deathrite shaman, but more because of Abrupt decay that kills my vial or my MoM and because other decks are also good and can use any single weakness in the current game.
My oppinion is that if D&T is less well positionned it's because of Abrupt Decay, more than DRS. However i used a 'IF', and i don't really thinks that's the case, we're still good. The bad thing i see, is that combo decks will probably come back in force at some point (Because mid / late fair decks are currently good) and they are sometimes scary (Belcher for example... what can we do against this monstruosity... just whish for a turn 2 hand)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I've been having trouble with control decks bringing in Izzet Staticaster out of the board. Having flash makes it really easy for them to get it down despite the mana denial plan, and usually by then if I have a vial it's already at 3, and they just don't allow Revoker to resolve--if I even can find one.
What about you guys? Does this card scare you?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@Tylert
Thus my suggestion earlier was to play the aggressive build, if guys played the old DT list, it used to have 4 isamaru hond of konda, so that i could add pressure early on. Now i feel militant could do the same but i still lack sufficient testing on so i can't say if its good or not.
Yes Abrupt Decay really gave DT lots of problems due to its instant speed hitting your equips and loosing key creatures because of it which in the past could have been already a victory. DRS, is not a one dimensional foe aswell.., if you think that mana is the only thing it could give, think again, the -2 or +2 life every turn hurts if lost all your equips or non is in play because chance are your creatures are smaller than your opponent, thus why i feel jotun grunts are needed once more.
DT is not a powerful deck late games now nor it could provide you an engine or mechanic that you could manipulate what you draw, all you can do is hope that you can tie down all the mana your opponent has. Now with most decks running 23ish land count that game plan is not that great aswell. Im not saying to abandon the mana denial ability but it became weaker as compared to before.
As for combo.., well its always a game of chance, when your SB do comes just hope for the best, since the deck was made combo is really not a favorable matchup. With all the discards running around, CB and counterspells, just hope that those kinds of decks takes care of the combo decks. If your going to worry about a matchup in where even if you put all your SB vs combo decks will give you a 40/60 matchup at best, i would rather just accept it and do good against decks that i know i can win and not against combo decks in where its really a game of chance.
@Malakai
Izzet Staticaster is going to be a pain to deal with indeed especially with its flash ability, but all you can do if you know that your opponent has that card is to use revoker and protect it with MoM, again enter jotun grunts again a fat creature.... thats why again i suggested maybe to add mid to late game bombs (maybe blade splicer or something) to deal with those kinds of cards. The equipment route right now is very fragile because of abrupt decay hitting your equips. Using the equip route is slow already loosing the equip and creature is really a big loss which can sometimes almost spell a loss game for you already.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
How's the gatecrash cards going ? Is there any bullet for DnT deck ?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malakai
I've been having trouble with control decks bringing in Izzet Staticaster out of the board. Having flash makes it really easy for them to get it down despite the mana denial plan, and usually by then if I have a vial it's already at 3, and they just don't allow Revoker to resolve--if I even can find one.
What about you guys? Does this card scare you?
Staticaster seems like a pretty fringe threat against DnT. Three mana and them probably playing it off of non-basics really gives us an edge here, in addition to the fact that Serra Avenger, active Mom, or active Mangara all stop it cold. Possible sideboard options include Pithing Needle, Path to Exile, and Linvala.
That being said, if someone in your local meta is THAT scared of his DnT match, it probably means you're doing something right and should just temporarily switch decks to keep them on their toes. He's probably also a pansy with the last name of a famous Canadian sport.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Active Mother of Runes doesn't do anything to Izzet Staticaster--it's something that is brought in to answer mom. Additionally, 3 mana isn't much when it both dodges Thalia and Rishadan Port.
The play vs. mom is: eot, try to kill mom, fail. Untap, kill mom. If you have two active moms, then they're still both now tapped naming something other than white.
I don't think this is the place to call your opponent names, especially if you have a girl's name to begin with.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
The conversation of Izzet Staticaster actually brings up a pretty interesting point. With more BUG and Jund decks running around, I've found our susceptibility to Engineered Plague as a real issue. This deck really does run twelve x-1 humans, and effects like Grim Lavamancer and Staticaster are pretty sweet against us unless we're able to get a quick equipment online.
Anyone have any ideas for cards to board against this? Where I used to take out Serra Avengers in some of these matches I now find myself keeping them in. The choice between running Jotun Grunt and RIP is also pretty difficult, as Grunt is great utility against these types of strategies but RIP is permanent and not a creature.
I suppose the best option is to start playing a couple more Oblivion Rings in the board, which are great against SnT as well as random Enchantments/creatures that wreck your day.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1337erhosen
The conversation of Izzet Staticaster actually brings up a pretty interesting point. With more BUG and Jund decks running around, I've found our susceptibility to Engineered Plague as a real issue. This deck really does run twelve x-1 humans, and effects like Grim Lavamancer and Staticaster are pretty sweet against us unless we're able to get a quick equipment online.
Anyone have any ideas for cards to board against this? Where I used to take out Serra Avengers in some of these matches I now find myself keeping them in. The choice between running Jotun Grunt and RIP is also pretty difficult, as Grunt is great utility against these types of strategies but RIP is permanent and not a creature.
I suppose the best option is to start playing a couple more Oblivion Rings in the board, which are great against SnT as well as random Enchantments/creatures that wreck your day.
Unfortunately, most of the time when you play oblivion ring to take care of enginered plague or dread of night or sulfur elemental, it's already too late. they have killed 2 of our critters.
One sideboard option is to play Honor of the pure. It is not a dead card and is pro-active. However, it is better in a Tutor Board, as you don't really want multiples of this card.
Most people play only two hate cards like plague / dread of night / sulfur elemental, so you'd be pretty unlucky to run into two of these in the same game. 1 honor of the pure is enough.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
Unfortunately, most of the time when you play oblivion ring to take care of enginered plague or dread of night or sulfur elemental, it's already too late. they have killed 2 of our critters.
One sideboard option is to play Honor of the pure. It is not a dead card and is pro-active. However, it is better in a Tutor Board, as you don't really want multiples of this card.
Most people play only two hate cards like plague / dread of night / sulfur elemental, so you'd be pretty unlucky to run into two of these in the same game. 1 honor of the pure is enough.
That's a really interesting idea. I think that definitely warrants testing. If you only run 1, though, it suffers from the same susceptibility to Abrupt Decay that Oblivion Ring does.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Split the top 2 of a 70+ man tourney with DnT!
Deck
9 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
Sideboard
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Manriki-Gusari
R1 BUG delver 2-1
R2 Kuldotha 2-1
R3 4c Deathrite 1-2 (eventually met in the finals)
R4 Merfolk 2-0
R5 Reanimator 2-1
R6 MBC 2-1
R7 Esper Stoneblade 2-1
Quarters BUG control 2-0
Semis Goblins 2-0
Finals 4c Deathrite Split
I could honestly say that luck was on my side throughout the tourney. Also, almost all my matches went close to time (never reached last 5 turns though), and involved a lot of game 3s. Mirran Crusader pulled its weight but I wish I can still sneak in the 4th Serra Avenger.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mrjumbo03
Split the top 2 of a 70+ man tourney with DnT!
Great result mate!
Would you mind describing specific situations where Mirrin Crusader shone for you?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mrjumbo03
Split the top 2 of a 70+ man tourney with DnT!
Deck
9 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
Sideboard
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Manriki-Gusari
R1 BUG delver 2-1
R2 Kuldotha 2-1
R3 4c Deathrite 1-2 (eventually met in the finals)
R4 Merfolk 2-0
R5 Reanimator 2-1
R6 MBC 2-1
R7 Esper Stoneblade 2-1
Quarters BUG control 2-0
Semis Goblins 2-0
Finals 4c Deathrite Split
I could honestly say that luck was on my side throughout the tourney. Also, almost all my matches went close to time (never reached last 5 turns though), and involved a lot of game 3s. Mirran Crusader pulled its weight but I wish I can still sneak in the 4th Serra Avenger.
Grats on the finish !!! your a TFF killer hahahaha......
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Have anyone use frontline medic in this deck ? is it good ? I Mean 2W you get 3/3 body and 2 ability (indestructible in battalion mode and counter spell with X)
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Frontline Medic does not really do what the deck needs. But I have not tested it either.
Someone over at Salvation mentioned Cursed Scroll. I was hoping to get some opinions on this.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Someone over at Salvation mentioned
Cursed Scroll. I was hoping to get some opinions on this.
I like the idea a lot, Cursed Scroll seems perfect in this deck.
As always, though, it is hard to find a place for it. Maybe cut some Revokers or equipment for it?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Frontline Medic does not really do what the deck needs. But I have not tested it either.
Someone over at Salvation mentioned
Cursed Scroll. I was hoping to get some opinions on this.
The idea is really nice and i think it would be a strong game plan against decks with lots of creatures or creature less decks. Its like a jitte for me somewhat. If i was to use cursed scroll i would probably cut sfm and equips. Right now its very easy to out tempo DT due to abrupt decay hitting the creature with equipment or hitting the equipment itself and during combat situations you might also loss your creature due to it. Thus right now sfm is somewhat weak against decay users. I don't know what cards to replace sfm but for equips i will go as far as running 3 cursed scroll main, as for the 4 slots which i still don't know.., i feel the creature that would replace sfm is 1 or 2 cc, the only creatures worthy i can think off right are are judge familar which is too small in terms body, maybe 2 jotun grunts and 2 something else.
During late games rishadan ports are somewhat uselss so instead of porting your opponents lands i guess its better to use cursed scroll.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
I don't know what cards to replace sfm .
If you want to play a card to replace SFM, leonin arbiter sounds good in a heavy fetch environment. It also doesn't hurt us at all making it another one sided tax.
