Understood but cantrips help you find the core cards while Burning Wish can neither help you find the core cards and continue to go off, nor replace any of the core cards themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
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Understood but cantrips help you find the core cards while Burning Wish can neither help you find the core cards and continue to go off, nor replace any of the core cards themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
It always feels like flying on the seat of your pants, but Empty is really good against a lot of the field right now. All the BUG, Jund, and Thresh decks have at most 1 answer to Empty main, if you can keep Blade off of Batterskull it's good against them (and you'll still race as long as you can empty for 14 the turn before they drop SFM or 18 the turn they drop SFM).Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
However, besides the Cabal Ritual nonbo, the biggest problem I have with Burning Wish builds is that because ANT doesn't play Silence, it's not an efficient use of space to play IGG or Diminishing Returns in the board to wish for. With TES, I wish for DimRet a lot and it's pretty nuts. So davelin is right in that BW is harder to convert into a kill in TNT.
If you have a grim tutor in the board, Burning wish is a core card. Heck, dropping 16 goblins turn 2 is enough against a decent portion of the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
Thought about that as well but that line is a little too slow to be useful. Burning wish seems best used to fetch an answer to a threat or EtWQuote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
If people think Empty is a good card, play it main and play Grims. The Burning Wish version is the worst version of this deck at the Past in Flames kill. That's really what this deck is, so I can't get behind it. If you want to have access to Empty, play it over the Ad Nauseam in the main and play 2 Grim Tutors. Burning Wish ANT is basically a slower TES that plays discard over Silence and is worse at Empty and Ad Nauseam. The thing you gain is a decent PiF kill, but that is worse than every other ANT variant. Burning Wish ANT just doesn't seem to have a focus of what it wants to do.
Wish finds you an engine, the tendrils, or a discard spell game one and game two often finds a tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
Iggy is in the board more to board in as a replacement engine and I agree it isn't a the best. And everyone still seems to be talking like burning wish replaces something essential to the deck. 12 cantrips are more than enough to play this deck, whenever I've played the 16 cantrip version I feel like preordained are only in the deck to sideboard out.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
When you Wish for PiF or Iggy, you have to also have an Infernal Tutor. You can't wish for Ad Nauseam. What other "engines" are there? You can get Emtpy, but that's not an engine, and to me that seems like its only good use (as well as grabbing a win con when you flip off Ad Nauseam).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
Diminishing Returns?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Guys pls don't talk about BW and a good target for an ANT SB here in this Treath, when you do, don't play this Deck and Play TES... omg. TES is alot better BW Deck;)
Can't see those comment anymore^^
Exactly, usually you need to tutor for an engine and a finisher usually same turn. A single infernal can do this, a single Burning wish cannot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
This is less of an engine and more of an escape button that you don't need as much with this deck but is necessary with TES because of the awkward situations you get in against discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You generally wish for PiF before you're ready to go off and you don't always need a tutor. Going off using cantrips is generally safe
Against Discard wishing for PIF is golden in TES. DR isn't a panic button but best used turn 1 or 2 if EtW isn't an Option or the stormcount too low for EtW. You have clearly no idea of the application of Diminishing Returns in TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Can we stop taking about TES cards in the ANT thread? I recently picked up ANT after realizing TES has way too high variance for my taste. How do people feel about tropical island over the 2nd island?
I completely understand the application of Diminishing Returns, but it is bad in this deck, and it is unreliable in TES. I have played TES for a long time and understand the benefits and pitfalls of this card. Also, wishing for PiF is not "golden," unless they happen to take your tutor and leave you with a bunch of fast mana and a Burning Wish...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
This deck is a different beast, so we need to stop trying to port all these ideas over from TES, because the deck will become a bad TES.
In response to Tropical Island, I find the 2nd basic Island to be very important. I play my Trop in the SB. Some people play Trop main and Bayou SB, but Bayou is actually very bad with Abrupt Decay, so in my opinion there isn't much reason to devote a slot to that card.
If they make you discard your tutor and you wish for PiF shouldn't you be happy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I've never needed or really wanted a second island, trop main is fine.
Oh absolutely, that was my point. But a competent opponent isn't going to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
I changed it up and ran AnT to a top 8 finish at the Philadelphia Legacy Series in Top Deck Games.
41 players showed and I went 4-2 in the swiss, due to poor game planning.
Maindeck was a pretty stock version with one Grim Tutor.
Likewise. The odds of naturally drawing the tropical island are quite low, and I personally rarely feel the need for a 2nd basic island as well. Tropical island is a mainstay in my ANT maindeck. On the fence about bayou maindeck, may replace it with another tropical island so as to cast cantrips with it not to mention trop is generally just as good at casting abrupt decay as bayou is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
TES is the burning wish deck of choice unless you want to learn DDFT. Seriously, burning wish cabal ritual are a nombo. Not to mention it makes ad nauseam even worse when you run 11 two drops in the deck in the form of 4 CRit's, 4 IT's, 3 BW.
Wish is super clunky. I don't see why people ever try to run it over grim tutor besides the price argument. Wish doesn't find any business at all short of you having wish + IT in hand, and then I would generally prefer to have just IT + rituals. When burning wish often grabs grim tutor, why run it over that anyways as well. It's nice to have an out to hatebears game 1, but that's about the only good thing about wish.
Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
The reverse being that ad nauseam is better because you can often stop when you hit a wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Absolutely not. You need to have cracked a 2nd LED for red mana, hit a Lotus Petal (that you don't need for black), AN with a red land open (and not need it for black mana), or AN before playing a land drop and hit a red land (that you don't need for black). This creates some really awkward situations and awkward Ad Nauseams. Hitting BW off AN in this deck is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than hitting it in TES, and it does not fix this deck's problems with the card Ad Nauseam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
The question isn't whether TES is a better Burning Wish deck than ANT. The real question is: is ANT a better deck with or without Burning Wish in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I would not like to play without BWish myself as it will often let you Ad Nauseam to a win without having to go hellbent. Yes, this means you have to worry about getting a red mana as well as having enough black mana to ramp rituals post Ad Nauseam, but honestly, that is rarely a problem in my experience. I also like having the option of turn 1/2 EtW. It's not a play I make often, but having the option is nice. Having the option to answer a game 1 Gaddock Teeg is also nice, if quite narrow. Having Diminishing Returns (and less so Ill-Gotten Gains) as wish targets also is nice. Lastly, there a lot of people packing Surgical Extraction as sideboard hate in my local meta so having Infernal Tutor as my only tutor feels risky.
I am aware of the problems with Burning Wish, especially the potential non-bo with Past in Flames. Grim Tutor in the sideboard seems like a possible solution to this though.
This is a ever repeating discussion.
If you want to run more Tutors and you feel that burning Wish is your selection of choice, don't tinker around with the ANT maindeck, question Cabal Ritual and create awkward 4-Color-fetchland-manabase-monstrosities but grow nuts and play TES!
The same is true for the annoying discussion about how to tackle graveyard removal other than DRS and MB hate like Gaddock Teeg. The solution for all this is playing TES
i played the 3 decks (tes ant tnt) and to me, they are metagame choices, i mean, the 3 decks are good
4c ANT with Burning Wishes aren't a metagame-choice but an abdomination. The solution to MD hate like Gaddock Teeg, Rest in Peace, Thalia and random crap out of the SB like surgical extraction or Leylines isn't to muddle subtypes together but performing the switch between subtypesQuote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
The 4th colour being green I'm assuming? Is what you are objecting to, having Burning Wish in an ANT altogether? Or only when the deck also splashes green for the likes of Abrupt Decay, Carpet of Flowers and/or Xantid Swarm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Casting Ad Nauseam with no mana floating with no land drop is terrible regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Yes, I'm talking about UBRG ANT with 1-2 Volcanics and 1-2 Tropicals to support both, B. Wish and sideboard options like A.Decay and Xantid Swarm. The problem is supporting all that colors with a fetch- & Dual-manabase. If you go the small step here from 4c-Dual to a real 5c Rainbow manabase, you can benefit from the limitless options of that manabase and run Silence. Several iterations of that progress might lead you ending u with TES but it's my honest believe that splasing R to support a pure UB Deck with PIF is right but turning ANT into a Full 3c Deck with a Green-splash and opting to still call the manabase resistant which a lot of ANT supporters still claim it is, is both, nonsense and a mistakeQuote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I think Lemnear is trying to get everyone to switch to TES
Even if I have a History of piloting TES, this is not my intention. Why would I dare? I'm just shaking my Head in disbelieve about some peeps who think they can remain the (mana)stability of ANT with the flexibility of TES by streching the manabase from 2,5 colors to 3,5. Moreover those attempts still lack the bare reasoning to perform that color extension with Duals rather than Rainbow lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
@Star/Scream
Sorry but Lemnear is only right what he's saying^^;) oh and i prefer ANT over TES.
I think you don't understand what he mean^^BW is bad in ANT. You Need red only for PiF(maybe ignorant bliss;)
Ignorant Bliss was pretty bad when I tried it. How are people having success with that card? If you are on the draw it's awful, and if you are on the play it's still pretty sub-optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
I think there are some really powerful green SB options, but you shouldn't be running and green mana maindeck imo. The matchups where you bring in the green cards and the Trop usually don't play Wasteland. Honestly some close matchups become unwinnable if you decide to not run Decays in the SB at all. Swarm is really good against S+T, and there is a lot of variance against that matchup post-SB when they bring in the stupid Leylines.
Not running any G lands main is a reasonable conclusion that I've seen people come to, but it seems that you're pretty much giving up the Chalice matchups by only running 1 G source. I know I've lost with ANT when I only had 1 G land and got wasted off of G - either had to deal with 2 hate permanents or naturally drew the Trop. Of course, you could add Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall, but at that point you have to ask yourself why you're devoting board space to inferior and redundant cards, and some decks like Hoogland Loam even run Chalice + Thalia + Teeg, so Abrupt Decay is really the only good answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
This weekend I did well at a small local with a build that had 1 Trop main, 1 side, 2 Mines. Having 2 fetchable G sources was good, but the Mines were bad (as expected). R is just super easy to make with LED, Petals, and the 1 Volcanic.
Agreed on Bliss...but I haven't tested it to be fair. Pretty sure you would have to play the 2 Gemstone Mines to play it consistently though. Shoutouts to all you Bob lovers out there, it's still the stone cold nuts against Miracles.
Fully agree with the above. I've played the following list in the 7 round legacy tournament and went 2-3-2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian probe
4 Cabal therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal tutor
3 Burning wish
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Lotus petal
2 Chrome mox
4 Dark ritaul
4 Cabal ritual
1 Ad nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Polluted delta
4 Misty rainforest
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical island
1 Island
1 Swamp
Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agnoy
1 Reverent silence
1 Ill-gotten gains
1 Past in flames
1 Empty the warrens
3 Abrupt decay
2 Chain of vapor
1 Bayou
2 Xantid swarm
I can confirm that ANT with Burning wishes is quite bad, I'd dare say the worst subtype of decks that feature Ad-Nauseam and Tendrils in same shell.
It really looses focus. You can rape their hand quite nicely, but you are usually missing the infernal tutor or most importantly LIFE for Adnauseam. This type of deck is really not explosive, and even when I've discarded every counterspell/threat possible I couldn't go off as I was lacking key piece for the combo. I will not call my self expert in storm, bu I've palyed it few times in tournaments and I definetly have an in-depth knowledge about legacy - so please no remarks about how I couldn't go of before turn 4 even when I wanted to/had a free way.
Having so many 2 CMC spells and only 4 lotus petals and my dekc also featured 2 chrome moxes, you really cannot afford to play adnauseam with 0 mana left in the pool. You will kill your self due to bad flips.. lack of additional chrome moxes and 1 mana dark rituals (as rite of flame) is very notable. I failed 4 out of 5 times when trying to go off with adnausem. Once with 19 life, once with 17 life, another time with 12 and 10 life but plenty of mana in the pool (but indeed 12 and 10 life is not the best amount of life for adnausem, but when you have abundance of mana in pool 10-12 life is really not that much of a problem since you only need to find burning wish and or infernal tutor (+LED) for the tendrils.
About Burning wish.. I really hated this card.. Even with past in flames from the board you need aditional burning wish or infernal tutor in the yard. The only real use is for goblin tokens.. and that was almost often to late as I was working my way through wall of counterspells first few turns.
To conclude my experince with Burning ANT:
- It's a suboptimal deck compared to TES or straight forward ANT.
- Adnasueam without any mana in pool or available landrops will not be a feasible more times then you think.
- Deathrite shamans especially if there is more then one on the field will ruin your day.
- Burning wish.. is really only good for empty the warrens. Although it is true goblin tokens will win you few games.. this is definetly a suboptimal deck to play the B. wish/tokens plan.
Running 1 Green Dual/Tropical Island Main is fine. Meta choice. i like it^^
Ignorannt Bliss is not bad at all^^
Winn because of this Card against jund all the Time;)
Last time on the GP strassbourg i won 2 Games against Jund because of bliss.
Here's the list I currently use. I'm basically only posting it for kicks. No comments about Burning Wish in ANT, I already wasted my time reading all the existing ones on this thread. And I know, no Past in Flames or Empty the Warrens maindeck. I play what I want. No comments about TES either; I've used that deck extensively and I hate it. This sideboard is bad. I'm still tweaking it. One time I almost beat Miracles with the CounterTop lock active but the turn before I was going to combo off, my opponent played a THIRD Counterbalance so he then had two on the field. Boooo. I'm trying Virtue's Ruin for the stupid hatebears since it gets around Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, etc even if they have Mother of Runes backup. It might be too slow, I don't know.
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseum
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Virtue's Ruin
I'm surprised you won a single match with this deck. Chrome mox is absolutely awful in this deck especially if you are running wishes. By cutting the past in flames from the main deck you made the deck far more reliant on burning wish which is supposed to be a support card and ad nauseam which is admittedly worse in wish builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
The problem with Bliss is that is is only good against Jund and basically only on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
You could always drop green. Abrupt Decay is only needed against Counterbalance, and I don't see that very often anymore. Next to that, stuff like Xantid Swarm is good, but other cards can take its place. And Carpet of Flowers is a card I haven't used in a year now.
Right now I play a list with Wish and without green. I have 3x Red Elemental Blast to complement the protection package. They help countering Counterbalance if I cannot discard it from their hand. It's not brilliant, but I almost never encounter Counterbalance anyway, so why splash a whole colour just for the outside chance of encountering one card? :wink:
I really do not understand why people are still talking about dropping Abrupt Decays when they should have dropped it ever since DRS got printed. Number of CB decks are falling rapidly come on.
Regards to the ongoing discussion of Wish vs non-Wish builds I would just like to say that to each his own. Play whatever you want. Ive played with Burning Wish in AnT and I have never looked back. The option of wishing for something is irreplaceable. I almost always pull off in a tournament Infernal for additional LED, then BWish for IGG FOR THE WIN. Or BWish for Dim Ret every time I got stripped of my hand against discard heavy decks. Not to mention the possibility of EtW if and when the opponent does not run blue. In addition, seeing the face of an opponent playing with counters after you cast BWish is priceless. They are absolutely clueless whether to resolve BWish or not.