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We can't win if they name red. Most good players will do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Personally though, I don't think bringing in Chain is worth it. But siding in Tendrils of Agony is fine for the possibility to get them with their own Griselbrand.
Lastly, I finished the last section of the opening post.
@bryant
Now that you mention it, siding the tendrils in seems pretty darn good. Great out to iona on red and its a great natural draw against a resolved griselbrand. Thats gotta be better than the 4th ponder. Also whenever you side in tendrils it makes your past in flames kill 2 mana cheaper. (Unless you had a burning wish in the yard randomly).
You still have less outs to Infernal -> Wish -> PIF with Infernal Tutor in the side which let me consider to swap EtW for PIF in some postboard Games.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettF
@Brett:
Wasn't much online the last days and missed to answer your message. Will do today. Sry
Re: The first post and Sideboarding against MUD:
Doesn't MUD usually run some number of Wurmcoils or Batterskulls, which can stall or shut down the ETW plan? Some even run Ratchet Bomb. I always take out Empty in that matchup because I've never actually won with it. The build I tested against was a 12post build with Forgemasters though, so it was very consistent at finding more life gain and beating goblins.
I think the main idea is that a Chalice/Trinisphere or even Lodestone can come down anywhere from turn 1-3, so any method of going off is worth considering. Yeah EtW isn't always ideal, but if you need to go off fast it's a great option. Moreover, i'd rather play to an out against their 8 hate artifacts, compared to 1-2 Ratchet Bomb type effects, and any decent sized swarm of goblins can probably race forgemaster fwiwQuote:
Originally Posted by .Ix
@Togores paisano!
@And other insterested
I have the same appreciation about miracles.
The Opening list post now differs from others, it's taking other directions, now I think Lem, Final Fortune, Bahamut me and others play other kind of approaches as said, now C.M seems the unique card which differentiates from other ANT build as Timo 3B.W. build F.example. me forexample for sure play 4th I.T in base, but also Diminishing and bribery in side.
On the Arcanis P. Tornament for example I reached 2 Feature matches both vs miracles, 1 loose 1 won, I explained some pages before, I think the unique mistake in one match up was pretending to be RUG. but even the match up I won was just bad plays by Martin Scheinin side - I won this - was Karma. even I recognized the way I oriented the 3rd game, was more psychological ShitInMyPants than other thing, million of thoughts came to my mind and felt this. so I sided agressively. In the context - I have the +1T.Seize+1I.T. = -2C.Therapy configuration base and its ok, I tryed several things vs miracles and we both hate somehow A.D. but seems a necceseary evil... I tested 3 pyro but still needed to somehow of response. the thing about 3A.D. 1pyro I think its the best suit. is that we leave 2 Xantid1pyro vs S&T, but is not as bad as usually in our meta unless is omnishow they ont play Leiline. butstill with the configuration as in Arcanis. so it would be at least on tD:
-1I.T. ,-1Ponder,-1EtW,-11C.M,-2C.Therapy = +2Pyro,+2A.D,+1T.Seize,+1Tropical I.
If we expect to reach the late game or find a posible response vs c.b. ponder has much value in here, the thing about therapys is that I dont think than more than 8 anti counter effects is needed but you can leave the 3rd C.T. with 9 instead of the 2nd C.Mox, depending on if you're in a good or bad mood! , I think I could prefer also to have T.Seize instead of a C.T. as it can hit the thing you need on opening without he need of G.P. - forgot - also, vs miracles and having 4 m.m response I would not worry to have g.s. in base, maybe I would add Tendrils but still prefer to have in hand other cards.
But there is a fact and its that it is not a good match up senseis can be even as annoying as a C.B. in some scenarios!!, sometimes you would prefer discard instea of that F*** A.D. and loose.
Please togores whatever the conclusions you reach let me know, I just don't have toomuch time to test except for Arcanis - a note, for sure my friend woul have won that torunament if he had no mistakes - our super TNT Deck just rocks everything. still enjoying playing TES the most...
@Final.Fortune - if read this, any thouhs about miracles or still thesame, any feeling about the opening? did you include C.R. in your list?
@Lem - tested the 2C.R sconfiguration and agree or still think just doessn't fit?
@Bahamut - if you are by here - any testing done in these latests builds - sure no much time..? what do you think about these late changes?
EDIT: From opening i would side like vs miracles:
-1RoF, -1Ponder,-1EtW,-1C.M,-2C.Therapy = +2Pyro,+2A.D,+1T.Seize,+1 Tropical I. and as said maybe -1RoF, -1Ponder,-1EtW,-2C.M,-1C.Therapy = +2Pyro,+2A.D,+1T.Seize,+1Tropical, Bryant agree? I would value C.R.in here more tan other cards.
The doubters of the Cabal Ritual inclusion with a Tutor in the side haven't tried it. Royce and I have been tearing up Legacy events with this plan. Matt Bevenour (Tammit67) was lucky enough to witness it two games in a row to get me into the top 8 against ANT. It's absolutely the real deal.
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bribery
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Past in Flames
This is my latest testlist and preboarded the 13th land for the overall longer games we have to play recently with a lack of non-blue decks in the metagame and chopped the 7th disruptions spell as I'm more used to burn Wishes for Thoughtseize now, which I play atm to clear the way for my SB man-plan. I cutted green for these tests as Decay is crap against anything other than Counterbalance or Chalice and I wanted to try if we can profit from Miracles natural weakness to counter 2cc spells and with them boarding out spot removal. Overwhelming them with Elemental tokens for minimal investment while flinging disruption was valid in past, limited testing (Cockatrice testing is shit). Riding Pyromancer against heavy disruption blanks a lot of cards boarded to fight us on the stack rather than on the battlefield and laughting at Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm has it's own appeal. Obviously, you want to remove at least one Mox in games you bring in Pyromancers as artifacts don't trigger the 2/1 or games you want to bring him in tend to be either longer (Miracles). Bribery is there for the returning S&T nonsense online and because I want to test how I roll without Dim.Ret. now that it is weaker than ever before.
@Pelikanudo
My only problem with the SB Infernal was that I had to burn a whole turn far too often wishing for it. Turn 3 Ad Nauseams are hard to punch through or suffer from damage dealt in the meanwhile. Moxen, Rainbowlands and CR are no BFF's either. I rather burn Infernals for doubling Rituals or Diamonds if it's needed atm than having less options for a fast IT -> AN/EtW in game 1's
@Lemnear - I like this MD a lot... will give it a spin... the Pyromancer is not sustainable solution in Ant imo (at least localy - once the tech is revealed Terminus + Golgari Charm ruins your day, incentive to suboptimal plays to increase pressure, slow) why should it be in TES?
The advantage is that no one expects a man-plan from storm at this point, aside the goblin-burst which can be handled with Pierce and Flusterstorm unlike YP (which costs 1/3 of the usual goblin army via IT/BW). Future will tell if the anti-goblin plans in form of Golgari Charm remains wide-played now that TNN is slowly leaving the metagame as a cornerstoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Edit: I feel its a better fit in a deck that can drop it turn 1 reliable off moxen and RoF, plays a full set of Therapies (players taste for the discard-split in ANT vary) and can clear the way for YP with Grapeshot or Massacre. The higher disruption density with BW -> Thoughtseize is a minor upside too. I hope that the adjusted manabaselso helps to chain cantrips
Sounds reasonable, BW is strong upside and TES is not renowned for manplans / be carefull with Massacre ;) ... Tried YP in September and now, both times facing full hate after round It gets used first, won just because of luck, games are too close, long and random with YP for my liking... each tournament I attend everyone knows what I'm on, I can get away with Miracle-only tech once, maybe twice, terminus-EE swap simly doesnt happen then ~ no change, on the other hand YP is significant change for Storm... Dunno, might work in anonymous SCG-like tournament...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Yeah, it does not make much sense for local gaming groups as the tech is known fast and people can even afford to adapt with dedicated SB slots. On the other side: Even the Telemin-tech wasn't stealth for long back when
I'm telling you, it's way hard to win with ETW against Forgemaster. I went T1 14 goblins on the draw and still lost against a t1 metalworker and t2 forgemaster -> Wurmcoil party and I would easily lose against straight T2 Wurmcoil, too. These MUD draws aren't even extreme god hands, they just need to have T1 Grim when we have T1 ETW (which means they were on the draw, or had no hate on t1). I think I'd rather bring in Tendrils to make it easier for me to blast him for 20 (or more) instead of playing a quick big ETW and losing almost all the time anyway. I don't know if my logic is correct, but from my experience with ETW, it's just been mostly useless to try to go off with it against MUD.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
you had 7 storm turn 1 and youd rather have tendrils instead? what would tendrils have done in that scenario? it also wouldve lost as you either wouldnt have had enough storm or wouldve had to wait which means the forgemaster can start rotating in trinispheres and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by .Ix
sometimes your draws dont match up well, that happens. 14 goblins on your turn 1 is great against their t2 trinisphere/chalice hands, which are more likely than fast forgemasters.
Ok first off, we don't always have 14 goblins. Even if we did, we would still lose to a mediocre draw from MUD. The more common 10-12 goblins on T1/T2, which would beat most other decks, can consistently be stalled long enough for TES to just lose. I had 7 storm turn 1 and I wouldn't have tried to go off if I knew MUD could beat 14 goblins anyway. I would rather try to Tendrils t2 or later, which would be much easier with Tendrils main. Believe it or not, that would have a better chance of winning against a T1 Metalworker than Empty the Warrens.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
From your use of the phrase "any decent sized swarm of goblins can probably race forgemaster fwiw", it looks like you haven't tested it much. It's not just Forgemaster that beats our goblins. Between 4 Forgemasters, 4 Wurmcoils, a Batterskull or two, 4 Glimmerposts, and 4 Vesuvas, racing MUD with fast Goblins is just very, very hard.
glimmerpost +vesuva is a pretty shitty counterargument to goblins, vesuva comes in tapped and glimmerpost isnt a sol land, so they'd be retarding their mana development to maybe gain an extra turn, seems pretty poor considering ramping to stuff is how they win. and the idea that youd want to go off after turn 2 against a deck full of hate artifacts seems ridiculous, especially if you want to bring in the "large lifelink creatures" consideration, waiting to make 10 storm while they turn it into 13+ storm is just as bad an end as the goblins not getting there. and yes, you can race forgemaster with t1 goblins in a lot of scenarios, especially if they dont have lightning greaves. the logic of "i wouldnt have tried it if i knew it wouldnt work" is absurd, you play a game of incomplete info and plans go awry sometimes, it doesnt necessarily mean the plan was bad. you can make the right play and lose, make the wrong play and win, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by .Ix
What is the problem guys? If you have Forgemaster MUD in your metagame (for whatever reason) don't toy with EtW or ToA. Wish for Bribery and slap them with their Blightsteel Colossus. Your first problems are Chalice, 3sphere and Thorn and MUD is a bad matchup overall. Accept that
Oh god. If you would like to theory fight out of your imagination, please do it in a less aggressive manner. Glimmerpost and Vesuva will help them get the game back with blockers on the field (ie after ramping). They won't play that before the sol lands. From my testing, Empty has never won me a game, even in the "ideal" situations where it should - this tells me that the plan is probably actually bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Christ man, the logic is definitely NOT absurd. I was testing against the deck for the first time, so I didn't know what would work or not. I went early ETW for 14 and lost. And then I did almost the same thing 8 more times and lost every time. Now, after testing, would I still do it? NOPE, because I know I'd lose. That statement was not referring to information about that one game, but about the actual matchup. I hope that clears that part up.
Definitely agree with this. It's a bad matchup no matter how you approach it, and Bribery is definitely something I didn't think of. Thanks for that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And all Wurmcoils are singing: "What is Lifegain? Blightsteel don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. No more..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM
This is like a reverse name drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
After playing and witnessing cabal ritual, I like it a ton.
@Bryant mainly:
Question:
why isn't better to run 5th or even 6th fetch instead of gemstone in that build? I'm going to test this at least on mine. I need to agree with Bahamut on this - try to make a deck with brainstorm with as much as fetches the deck can support.
a) you still have access to the same number of mana Green sources
b) is a suffle effect,
c) gets better massacre ,
d) thins the decks,
e) for the late game is stronger than gemstone ,
f) gets bigger the g.y.
the con is that the land will produce R or B and U from now on. I remember 3 fethes 3 dual were played in the past, why not 5-4?, even that progression is favourable to the statistic of not having anything to fetch...
I'd like to ask also:
which would be the mana base configuration if not playing Green? I think could be 7 fetches 3 U.Sea 2.Volcanic. agree? anybody agree?
I've been tinkering with the idea of not using URB ony lot of time ago..., but I still appreciate very much decays and super xantids.
I've been thinking in adding also C.Rituals some how to this deck or adding C.M to my TNT build! but I really don't think I.T. is its place, the card that has more sense to me is C.M. because its natural non synergy with C.Rituals and its a mana producer and of course I would try to add more fetches.
From the upcoming Magic 2015 Core Set:
Cheap, wishable removal? Worth consideration.Quote:
Void Snare - U
Sorcery (Common)
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand.
I think void snare is a strong competitor for CoV's slot. when it comes to actually stopping Leyline, having Wish for access is way better than just trying to find a 1-of, especially since you dont have to necessarily dilute the main either. void snare is worse in terms of answering hatebears, but with massacre and grapeshot, i feel like you could make this work. no absurd storm generating plays though :P
It's not that CoV was ever boarded for the natural tendrils boost :pQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Other than that, this card removes the need to board in cards like CoV out of pure speculation that your opponent might run Leyline, Runed Halo or other shit
idk, the difference between Grapeshot for 50 and Grapeshot for 40 is pretty big... (obv in relevant matchups to board it though)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
and i totally agree, the ability to not have to play the removal in the main is great, for the same kinda "two axis" reason of: if they dont have the hate permanent, this wish is still a tutor, thoughtseize, w/e
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
storm generating line is rare enough that it does not matter. you now have 4 bounce spells at one is good. sorcery speed is rough but worth considering
Wishable answer to permanents that can be cast off of any land seems like a big deal, one of the gripes I've always had with Grape Shot is that a Wasteland can destroy your only red source.
I'd drop Chain for it no question.
This will definitely be included in the deck over Chain of Vapor. However, I think people are really underestimating Chain's abilities. I watched Royce last weekend cast Chain on his two Chrome Mox and then sacrifice a second land to bounce Phyrexian Revoker so that he could win. He needed both of the Chrome Moxes in order to do so.
Anyway, I'm stoked for Void Snare. I will be needing Japanese Foils.
CoV is more versatile and instant speed is important when you need to win fast. But vapor snag is wishable, mmmmm.... Maybe one of each in sb????
Guys, I'm losing a lot of games vs UR Delver. They have taxing counters, fow and a quick click in form of delver and goblin guide. Any strategy or tip for this MU???
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoWOMBjCQAAi0Ps.jpg
Edit: adding some decision trees i came up with below to help generate debate.
Here are the possible plays from what I can tell...
Line 1) Shuffle the ponder.
Keeping this ponder pretty much ensures your going for an early EtW as you don’t have a chance to burning for infernal before you can draw some stable mana sources. If you try to Ad Nauseam with this ponder you’ll have to draw a +2 mana source on turn 4 to do the whole 9mana combo in one turn and pyro their clique too. And if they clique in response to your RoF you are in trouble.
If you shuffle and hit some lands, you’ll beable to burning for infernal and go for ad nauseam later, hopefully hitting their clique with the pyroblast and you have decay as backup plan.
Line2, Scenario A)
Put back RoF, then CT, then LED. Draw LED. Pass the turn.
Your opponent draws, plays SDT off plains. passes back.
You draw CT. play Petal (s1). Play DR off Sea (BBBs2). Cast CT naming Terminus (BBs3). Break Petal for R and Play LED (BBRs4) Play Burning wish breaking LED for red (BRRRs5). Get Empty the warrens, cast it for twelve goblins (s6). Prey there is no more terminus. They get to see their top3, and then they get to shuffle and see another 3.
Line2, Scenario B)
Put back RoF, then CT, then LED. Draw LED. Pass the turn.
Your opponent draws, plays scalding tarn representing the fluster, and passes the turn.
You draw CT. Cast CT off Underground sea (s1). They break tarn for tundra and flusterstorm it (s2). Pass the turn.
They draw a card, play plains and tap plains to cast SDT, passing the turn with tundra open.
You draw RoF. Cast petal (s1). Cast Drit off sea (BBBs2). Cast RoF off petal(BBBRRs3). Cast LED (BBBRRs4). Cast Pyroblast targeting anything (BBBRs5). Cast Burning wish breaking LED (BBRRRs6). Get Empty the Warrens and cast it for 14 goblins(Bs6). Sac a goblin to flashback therapy naming Terminus. Hope they don’t see another terminus in the top3.
Line 2, Scenario C1)
Put back RoF, then CT, then LED. Draw LED. Pass the turn.
Your opponent draws, plays scalding tarn representing the fluster, and passes the turn.
You draw CT. Cast DR off Sea. They crack tarn for Tundra and fluster it. Pass the turn.
They draw a card, play plains and tap plains to cast SDT, passing the turn with tundra open.
This is worst case scenario for us. I would only take this line if you think your opponent is really bad and won’t fluster the dark ritual. If he does let it resolve though, we get to use our best line:
Line 2, Scenario C2)
Put back RoF, then CT, then LED. Draw LED. Pass the turn.
Your opponent draws, plays scalding tarn representing the fluster, and passes the turn.
You draw CT. Cast DR off Sea. It resolves (AKA they fuck up) (BBBs1). Cast Therapy naming flusterstorm (BBs2). Cast Petal (BBs3). Cast LED and then break petal (BBRs4). Cast burning wish breaking LED (BRRRs5). Get EtW, Cast it for 12 goblins (s6). Flashback therapy naming SDT.
I'm on early EtW plan. If opponent taps out for top, Therapy naming FoW and Terminus on flashback.
Seeing the discussion of the new 1 mana sorcery bounce spell. So basically you will most likely need to wish for it then pass turn, and bounce the permanent, then go off? Chain of Vapor allowed eot bounce, then go off. Not doubting the card at all. Just speculating on probable lines that would need to be taken.
Primarily it's used to answer Leyline, so you can go off and then just find 2 wishes, one for Snare, one for Tendrils. When answering a permanent like Meddling Mage you have Pyroblast, or Abrupt Decay for Canonist etc. It's just nice that we now dont have to board a card on speculation for leylineQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Especially as getting hands on a one-off CoV during the combo turn can become quite difficult unless you have 3 Infernals/Wishes in total between your hand and graveyard plus enough mana to set up a PIF loop or draw it naturally off an AN.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Now you can sidestep boarding 1-2 CoV for fringe cards like Leyline or, which is even more important, yet not mentioned so far, answer game 1 hate like Chalice of the Void @ 0 which is played these days in Lands.dec
AJ Kerrigan on camera with TES ... and Telemin Performance!
Edit: did he really rather play T1 blind therapy than Ponder in game 3?? No wonder he lost the Fetchland later to Stifle :/
Why did he not fetch when his opponent tapped out for brainstorm? He knew the stifle was there and that getting bottle necked on mana was going to be am issue
Would you have called t1 with a blind therapy pierce like AJ did g3? Or other thing?
I usualy vs canadian call styfle or brainstorm blind turn 1. Only not if my hand is nuts and after the therapy i can go off call fow.
Opinions?
His hand was:
2 therapy
Ponder
gemstone
Volcanic
3 cards idk.
Edit: Lem just saw your edit. Obv ponder 1st but if therapy...?
No fucking clue. Hand was fine, but he just made too many misplaysQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Game 2, after my opponent goes volcanic, pass, no stifleon my fetch, I'm 100% naming spell pierce (which he had). Poor therapies in my opinion
3-3 at a 61 player tournament. Wins against zombardment, UR painter, burn. Lost to RUG Delver, Death & Taxes and Affinity.
Cabal Rituals were awesome and won me a lot of games. Playing against Affinity sucked due to my initial hands being so sketchy while I wanted to take a risk and go for it. G1 I had all the mana I could ever want, needing only wish, tutor or AN to go crazy, but I never got any. Loss to RUG Delver was also because of risky keep G1 which did not pay off. Losing to Death and Taxes was very possibly also a mistake of my own, I tried to just go all out turn 1 or 2 and got punished for being a greedy idiot. I'm having a crisis whether do I want to play combo or not, when playing with my friends I would really like to have a deck where we actually get to play a "fair" game of magic and because of that I've been thinking about changing my deck. This deck performed so well that I'm not really sure about whether do I want to make the change or not, I'm fairly positive that this could very well be the best storm deck at the moment. If I changed my deck now I would also have to throw away my dreams of playing doomsday in legacy.
Thanks to everyone in this thread, especially Bryant Cook. Goblin tokens signed and altered by you have made people very jealous. :)