This is what I do with all my saved up store credit from winning weekly legacy events every single week. Buy cards whenever I want. 12post is so far positive in the Green it is absurd for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
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This is what I do with all my saved up store credit from winning weekly legacy events every single week. Buy cards whenever I want. 12post is so far positive in the Green it is absurd for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Okay guys i suggest we start listing all the bad things about the thing and bring down the price to 1 -2 € / $ :laugh:
I'll start with (and this one really hurts the thing): ABRUPT DECAY :frown:
it's really bad when it's on 1 - 2 counters and they hit it with decay. You might have used up that extra brainstorm (or something) when you didn't have to in the attempt to flip it ASAP and then it just dies...
Hey guys,
I'm a pretty new Legacy player and was intrigued by this deck. It seems so versatile and fun to play. I've been reading through these forums and looking at decklists and compiled one that can fit the budget I am on right now. Do you guys think that this is a viable deck or at least a good way to build into the full deck in the meantime? I go to SCG events every now and then (like 4 in 2 years), but I'm really just a pretty casual player and I'm mainly just looking to have fun. Without further ado:
Land
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Breeding Pool (Not sure how detrimental it is to the deck that I will have these over Trops, but they're just so expensive. I can definitely see the damage being a problem though.)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Vesuva
1x Eye of Ugin
2x Maze of Ith
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta (It's a blue fetch and I already have the play set from my almost completed Death's Shadow Delver deck.)
1x Glacial Chasm
Creatures:
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4x Primeval Titan
Instant:
4x Brainstorm
3x Crop Rotation
3x Repeal
4x Warping Wail
Artifact:
4x Expedition Map
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Sorcery:
4x Show and Tell
Sideboard:
2x Dismember
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trickbind
3x Nature's Claim
I don't know what else. I'm a horrible sideboarder so open to all suggestions.
Do you guys think that this is something that can be registered in an SCG event and not get completely crushed? (At least while I build up to getting more expensive cards?) Any help is appreciated! Thanks!
Welcome to the Source and to the deck that we all love!Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
I'm not sure what your budget constraints are, but the first thing I would recommend buying would be a single Cavern of Souls. With several ways of tutoring up lands, Cavern is a simple way of ensuring that your Primeval Titan hits play. It's probably the one-of land that I search up for the most.
When moving from shocklands to dual lands, the jump from zero duals to one is the biggest increase in terms of improving your deck. At least with one, you can always fetch it up first. I would probably try to borrow or buy one first, then work on finding another three at some later point, much later than the first if need be. Also, you should swap one basic Island with a basic Forest, to ensure that all of your Krosan Grips and Nature's Claims can be cast under a Blood Moon.
For your maindeck answers to Wasteland, you only have three Crop Rotations. You have the two sideboarded Trickbinds, but you probably want more defenses to Wasteland in the main. You should look into fitting at least a couple of Pithing Needles. I myself would probably go -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Expedition Map and then +2 Pithing Needle. I've never played a 12post list with less than three needles mainboard, as it is simply the best answer to our deck's Krytonite as well as being extremely versatile.
Lastly, unless you want to risk not facing any combo matchups, I would devote the rest of the sideboard to hating combo. If Flusterstorm is too expensive for you, Swan Song is a decent alternative. Phyrexian Revokers can be nice to have since they provide a clock and give you some hate when the storm opponent has Xantid Swarm. Mindbreak Traps are another good option.
I hope this all helps. Let me know if you have any other questions. Your build is very similar to the list that I have been piloting for several years, so I can say from experience that you should have game against just about anything!
Personally I really could not imagine running the deck with shock lands. Mostly since I run the gx versions and they often win with very little life in my experience. The UG version does have show and tell to rely on, but the gx versions ramp quicker and can actually resolve large threats a bit easier without cheating them into play. Maybe I'm just overly concerned with doubling the amount of damage a price of progress can deal you by running shock lands, but I feel life is a very precious resource that post uses consistently to the point where I don't want to risk that extra 2 life in order to have a turn 1 play or delay myself a turn because I have to fetch a tapped shock end of turn.
I agree with this and with the previous comment on Pithing Needle. About a sixth of my games involve hiding behind Glacial Chasm for a while and life points in that situation directly equate to turns, which are what this deck wants. When I started playing this deck I built Gw due to my budget and have come to like it enough to stick with it purposefully. If you're looking to buy 4 Show and Tell and aren't too set on playing U/G, I would suggest acquiring a Cavern of Souls and a Karakas instead, for forcing through creatures and the ultimate endgame of infinite turns. A U/G build would require those anyway, so starting with them gives you a playable mono-G version while you look for the duals and S&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
Normally I dont' discuss budget builds, but I think you realize the power of greater efficiency cards, esp Duals and Candelabras. The majority of your deck looks good considering your cardpool. I suggest moment's Peace, especially for budget builds. One of Repeal's big benefits is that it can net you absurd amounts of mana with candelabra. Same with Maze of Ith. One Maze of Ith is great, One with a candelabra is greater, and two with one candelabra is bonkers. Also 4 breeding pools doesn't help you, but higher basic land count might. I have run the deck on 1-2 Tropical Islands extremely successfully, and when I did I was running 5-6 basics and hinging on Misty Rainforest being pivotal. No Misty Rainforests are what are hurting you more than no Dual Lands. Sadly Misty Rainforests are double the price of Polluted Deltas, so those also might be something to reach for. I would personally -2 Maze of Ith +2 Moment's peace. -2 Breeding Pool +1 Forest. Then change your fetch count to 3 Polluted Delta, 2 Green Fetch of any type. I would also go -1 Repeal +1 Platinum Emperion. Perhaps dropping Kozilek as well for a 2nd Platinum Emperion. Do these changes if have these cards. Don't go buying cards to make your budget build a better budget build. Save to make your goal build attainable.Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
Sideboard wise, I would include Flusterstorms if you have them, Swan Songs if you don't. Surgical Extractions are a godsend. If you dont' have them, Relic of Progenitus are a weak other option.
My budget SB would look like this:
2x Dismember
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nature's claim
3x Surgical Extraction / Relic of Progenitus
3x Flusterstorm / Swan Song
3x Meta call card (Blue Elemental Blast / Trickbind / Wipe Away / [Spell Pierce + Ugin What I have in this spot atm] )
I think your priority for upgrading out of your budget build should be as follows in this order/timeframe:
1: Get 3-4 Misty Rainforests
2: Get 1 Tropical Island
A LOT OF TIME/SPACE HERE
25: Get 3-4 Tropical Island
A LOT MORE SPACE/TIME HERE
150: Get 1 Candelabra
350: Get 2nd Candelabra
Good luck.
I play C/g, which is a rather different style, and I know many people will disagree. But I would personally prioritize getting a Candelabra over Trops 3-4. Candle isn't just explosive ramp. It's another way to hedge vs Wasteland because it allows you to get by with fewer Posts in play. It's also potent defense alongside Maze. Obviously, the first two Trops are 100% critical. But it seems like you'd have diminishing returns for the last two compared to the value of your first Candle.Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
Thanks for the help! Yeah, I can definitely pick up a Cavern of Souls since having a Titan that can't be countered seems amazing. And good point about Pithing Needle, I'll definitely make the deck space for it. I'll do my best to get at least the first Trop since compared to other duals they're not THAT expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by into_play
Yeah I'll try to make the deck rely less on the shock lands since it does seem very problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
Do you by chance have a list of the deck you started with if it's a good way to break into this deck type? I was toying around with a mono-green build of the deck, so maybe that is the better way to start until I can acquire the more expensive cards. How is the power level of a mono-green version versus UG version? I think I mostly stayed away from mono-green since most of the builds I saw had multiple Candelabras.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
Thank you for the help, I was hoping to get some of your input. I loosely based this build off of one of yours that I saw in an earlier post. I didn't really consider being able to get into this deck type until I saw a post of yours that didn't play Candelabras. I hope to get Candelabras at some point since I do see the way they speed up the deck and give it more plays, but it was nice to see a playable deck without them for the time being. As for the changes, I will definitely do my best to pick up Misty Rainforests, cut down on the Breeding Pools and up the basic land count. I am curious as to how come you prefer Platinum Emperion over the other Eldrazi monsters. What makes him better than the rest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I'm not completely settled on the UG version. I've seen your posts about C/G and your decks definitely intrigue me. I've been testing to see which version I like better and I do love the power that Candelabra brings. Can you tell me a little bit about the C/G style since I don't think I get it quite as well (like how it replaces Show and Tell and how it usually wins in general)? And what does C/G have to go against combo decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I don't play the same list as TheBoozeCube but I would personally say that the c/G version is a bit more resilient towards hate like wasteland and blood moon, it ramps more reliably to actually cast threats without a way to cheat them in and they aren't as tough on mana requirement given the fact that they don't require multiple colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
The biggest differences between C/g and other builds are:Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
- Ancient Stirrings. While other builds sometimes play this, C/g takes most advantage of the incredible card selection it offers with a maindeck that's around 87% colorless. I have won games from a mull to 4 because I had a Forest and 2x Ancient Stirrings. It finds pretty much everything.
- Primeval Titan. To my knowledge, C/g is the only build that doesn't play it. With the relatively lower number of green sources and higher number of Candles, it's usually easier for C/g to ramp directly into Eldrazi then to mess with Titan as a stepping stone.
The last point is probably the key to your question. It replaces Show & Tell by focusing on pure Post-based ramp:
• Because the deck is primarily colorless, it can be much more aggressive with its Crop Rotations. Unless you're holding it for a specific reason (Wasteland, Bojuka Bog, Chasm, etc), you can just use it to quickly upgrade your Forests into Posts. Color screw isn't a significant issue for us.
• Similarly, because the deck needs very little colored mana, you can spend your early turns dropping Posts instead of fetching. Unless you need to lay a Forest to hold up Crop Rotation or play a Glimmerpost for Needle/Map, your best T1 play is almost always just a Cloudpost. This is also your best T2 play. And T3. In fact, the deck frequently wins games without playing a single colored source. Not needing to spend early land drops on non-Locus lands provides C/g a big tempo advantage. And with a higher Candle count, we can get to 10-15 mana pretty consistently by turn 4.
- As far as combo decks, C/g actually has plenty of options nowadays. Warping Wail provides maindeck countermagic, while Crop Rotation provides graveyard hate, Karakas, Chasm. Because the deck is very good against fair decks, most of the sideboard is dedicated to fighting combo. Sphere of Resistance and Trinisphere fight Storm and Elves. Surgical is primarily for decks that recur Wasteland, but it also does work vs many combo decks. Mindbreak Trap is also an option, although I've moved away from it because it's narrow and having Warping Wail in game 1 significantly improves the Storm matchup.
They both have their pros and cons. Neither is better than the other. It just comes to personal preference and your meta. If you like having different ways to win and cheating big creatures into play, play UG. If you like a linear, repetitive route to victory, play Mono-G. If your meta has lots of FoW and Daze but not much combo, play Mono-G. If your meta has lots of fast decks play UG.
If your meta is mostly combo, choose a deck with access to counter Magic. 12post is a deck that you either at because your meta is mostly fair or because you like the deck and don't care about win % that much. The deck is like the RG tron of legacy(incase you come from modern). It loses to fast decks like infect and combo, but crushes fair decks like miracles and Shardless BUG. Choose wisely.
The first list I played was essentially this one but with -1 Tabernacle and +1 Pithing Needle in the sideboard. I don't like that build much nowadays, instead favoring the one in this post. I play one Candelabra now but for many months owned zero and the deck still performed well. For a budget version of that list I suggest -1 Candelabra -1 Dark Depths +1 Ancient Stirrings +1 Forest.Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
U/G having Show and Tell allows it to drop huge threats 1-2 turns earlier than mono-green can cast them which is the key advantage; it means you can go from no posts to two on turn 3 (S&T->Primeval) whereas Gw almost always requires posts first in order to cast Primeval Titan and get more posts. Out of necessity, therefore, Gw is better at simply putting Cloudposts in play (notice the greater numbers of Maps, Stirrings, and sometimes Crop Rotations in Gx lists vs. UG). This is an advantage if your lands are often under attack, and reduces the need for Candelabra. The colored-mana sources in Gw are almost entirely basics making that version more resilient to nonbasic-land hate.
When I started with the deck my assessment was that U/G is probably more powerful than Gw, because S&T enables brute-force solutions where Gw often requires tactical finesse, but not by enough to justify the $1300+ to acquire Trops, S&T, Candelabras, etc. before ever playing a match. Also my meta has a lot of Lands players so robustness to recurring Wastelands is a significant concern. So I saved a bunch of money, lost some games as a result, won some games as a result, and get to puzzle out lines to crushing victories instead of casually paying 2U (not that it's quite that simple, but you get the idea I hope).
i'm trying to merge rock's ancient tomb build + UG thing build. Had some strong plays with it online but i got mana screwed 2 times. Maybe because of bad hand keeping i don't know... ? maybe it's too unstable? :rolleyes:
4 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
2 Island
4 Glimmerpost
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Cloudpost
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Warping Wail
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Show and Tell
4 Primeval Titan
2 Platinum Emperion
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Moment's Peace
2 Trickbind
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
Platinum emperion allows your Show and Tells to completely win you the game in some troublesome matchups where candelabra would propel you forward. Rug, storm, burn, eldrazi aggro, all have minimal or zero removal for the card and cannot win with it in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
The budget build focuses more on castable fatties that seize the game if shown in. I also suggest a bane of progress in your sb, as a show able card vs sneaky show or omni, but also comes in vs many decks like dnt, mud, burn.
Another cards I've run in budget builds is Snap. I usually only ran this when I also ran trinket make or auger of bolas, but the pseudo candelabra effect is often staggeringly strong when appropriately timed.
This is really the big difference between. C/g builds and U/g, UG relies heavily on timing, statistics, and knowledge of the meta, but if piloted well will give you over 80% win rates. C/g is significantly easier to pilot, and gains it's success from essentially being pre-boarded vs tempo, but is highly matchup reliant. Look at the two successful C/g lists in SCG opens, and both of them only played vs one combo deck in the entire swiss. With Opens being 15 rounds now, we need to make the deck less reliant on matchups. Hence why I prefer U/G unless the meta demands otherwise.
Another item that note that no one mentioned is eternal masters is only 6 weeks from being released. I'm going to guess either Karakas, Show and Tell and/or Cavern of Souls will make an appearance in that set. Honestly, I would hold off that time making any non-reserve list purchases to see what gets reprinted. That being said, the cards that don't get reprinted run the risk of price spiking higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Drazi_Landscaping
Do your LGs allow Proxy/Playtest cards? That's a great way to feel a deck out without dumping money into it. I made that mistake when I started into legacy, ughh nicfit lol. Our LGS allows playtest cards and pays out credit so you can work towards owning the cards. I spent < $100 for each candelabra I own banking store credit.
Just a quick question on the move back to UG to incorporate Thing & AK vs the mono-blue list you posted earlier, is it primarily for Crop Rotation? The Prime Times don't seem *as* good without Show and Tells. Just curious because I'm looking to test out Thing in the Ice for myself, and the mono-blue list looked like a lot of fun, but I have a lot of experience with the UG build. Would love to know your thoughts on the differences and why you decided to go with UG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
This is a very good point. If you want to get into the deck, start working on getting the primary reserve list cards now.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
- Tropical Island and Savannah. If you want to play a Ug or Gw build, you'll want these. And even if you don't play those, duals are probably the most liquid cards in the game if you're trying to trade into other high-end cards. We already saw one big spike when Eternal Masters was announced. Even if demand doesn't live up to the hype, the perception of demand plus price memory could jack up the price soon and keep it sustained there for a long time.
- Tabernacle is insanely expensive. It's not strictly necessary to play the deck, but it's a powerful weapon to have. Fortunately, Lands and Post are the only major archetypes that play it. Given the extreme investment required, a buyout seems unlikely, regardless of EM. That said, Lands is a popular archetype. With Wasteland confirmed and Port likely, a demand-based spike is certainly possible.
- Candelabra's been pretty stable for a long time. Post and High Tide are the only decks that play it, and EM doesn't seem likely to create a surge of demand for either deck. Besides FoW, almost all of High Tide's expensive staples are on the reserve list. That said, there's few enough copies out there that a buyout – while unlikely because of investment cost – is always possible. Given Candelabra's extremely niche role, a buyout is unlikely because trying to create $800 prices seems likely to backfire from lack of demand.
In sum, I'd try hard to get duals before Eternal Masters hype spikes them again. Tabernacle is a secondary target. Candles can probably wait. (And if you decide to go C/g or mono-G, you should easily be able to turn Trops into Candles…)
Dude just don't buy everything that's posted on this forum and you'll be fine. I did that last year when i started to build the deck. now i have a bunch of legacy staples that i don't use. Especially be careful when buying expensive SB cards. I f myself with FoW as i had to buy flusterstorms later on anyway. now i don't even run them and their getting a reprint - GG.
Run UG definitely. brainstorm, SnT, flusters,... are all good enough reason to do so. i agree u should wait with the candle. what's a single candle without trinket mage or ancient stirrings? granted it wins games sometimes, but its one of the cards i'm boarding out most frequently. get your trops and mistys first. if u don't want spend money just run the budget monoG version with GSZ... i wouldn't go for GW as u'll have to put down some serious money anyway and decks without brainstorm cant be as good :tongue:
Sooo i went a step back from the things and tombs to a version of this list. I like this list a lot but I’ve been losing to the grixis delver menace – a lot. They seem to have the answer for everything I manage to throw at them… I mean between gitaxian / cabal, wasteland, counters and a fast clock I feel my hands are tied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Any tips for this match up?
If you can resolve an elephant grass and maintain for a few turns it's likely your best post board plan. Otherwise early wail or show and tell can do a lot in that match up to stabilize a boardQuote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
I don't know if this is relevant for you or not but in my testing I've found one of my keys to success is to attacking their graveyard to limit their ability to drop early Gurmags on the board. I've got Relics on my board which come in, in addition to Bojuka Bog.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
It's still a rough matchup and you really have to navigate it well, but I've found the deck does have the tools to get through it. Pithing Needle is important. I don't know how Rock Lee gets by without them or with low quantities of them, but I never run less than 3, that shores up vs Wasteland.
agreed on pithing needle. this is one of the reasons i like the multiple trinket plan you can go down to 1-2.
this is exactly what i was pondering about. should i leave bojuka in? okay i'll try it.
wail hmm.. I exile their creatures early on but somehow they just keep coming...
what else? which SB cards are in your respected opinions the best for this matchup?
maybe a couple of BEBs couldn't hurt right? i was thinking of trying 2 in the board since i'm usually weak against red anyhow...
do you board in flusters?
Hi, as ug build player for me flusters what i'm playing three in main i side out against everything what have deathrite shamans and discard except elves it just longer death i just changed plan to have more permanents in board and carefuly get empty my hand asap i'm testing now couple of relics with two blight Herders and seems to be nice and successful plan 4/5body and three scion guys when you casting you get more time ussualy when it resolved i won a game last few tournaments in my meta full of shardless agents maybe i put another one :) and especialy against grixis delver i side also gut shots thats nice too..Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
cau
maybe not a bad idea. i'll test it. not sure about gut shot without the thing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drixx
wait you are boarding flusters out against hymn, thoughtseize? i'm boarding them in because of discard? am i boarding wrong here? though with WW mainboard i've been having doubts lately about bringing in flusters in these situations... on the other hand if u want to kill their DRS with WW u are defenceless against their discard?
-
i've been finding mox diamond to be amazing in this build. it has contributed to several wins that would be impossible without it. Namely painter and nonbasic land hate in general - back to basics, blood moon, magus, wasteland,... even PoP - to some extent. In addition it ramps & mana fixes. Numerous times it has powered up my key spells in these tight situations enabling a win through SnT, crop rotation or titan. the same is true for other spells especially SB cards. This is just a brilliant addition and i love it.
I've been thinking i'd like to be a tad heavy on lands maybe 26 instead of 25 (2 islands seem like the right choice)? also contemplating 4x cropR, since it allows you to crop more aggressively and not get mana screwed so easily? it has some downsides like not playing well with WW or being dead late in the game, but that's acceptable for me... Has anyone else been playing with it?
off topic:
So naturally I wanted to go buy one for myself and it has F spiked ! i was looking to buy a playset of moxD a few months ago when i was contemplating a wacky 12post / lands list. it was around 20 EUR back then (around 80 for a play-set). now its like triple that price :cry:
does anyone know if this trend will continue? should i buy it now or will the price drop??? i want to play it so i'm buying either way. I just want to make the right decision for a change...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
i just don't expect that my three flusters save my hand in right moment because i don't run ww but two engineered ex. instead and i'm trying better manage my brainstorms,ponder and sensei's against discard i like now more creatures in side and your opponent bring in more flusters/pyroblasts/discards/pierces/lili etc... and sometimes they simply can pay with thoughsize in third or fourth round i like flusters to keep my crop rotations or brainstorm resolved in first round also fluster are not so good when you are on draw anyway opp will starts with thoughtsize maybe i'm wrong against some grixis and 4c delvers in this matchup for me seems to me also very bad ..
Well, it's on the reserved list, sees a reasonable amount of play in Legacy and we're about to get a set of reprints that will at least theoretically build interest in Legacy. How much it goes up depends on how many people get inspired to build Loam/Lands/etc. from EMA, but I don't really see it going down any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Dude thanks for the feedback i feel better now. i went and bought one moxD right after i posted that whiny off topic question. Once a sinner always a sinner :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by thelastbeast
Coming from a C/g perspective, I've found Tabernacle and Wail to be very effective weapons against Grixis Delver. I doubt they'd be any less effective for UG builds, despite the lower number of Crop Rotations. As long as you can keep Pyromancer under control, it's not too difficult to beat.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Moments peace goes a fair ways here too. Agree with Tabernacle and maze.
Pretty solid performance tonight at my LGS: stumbled against Infect when he top-decked his single Wasteland on his second draw and I drew no more lands while staring at a handful of hate. Other than that, the deck did what I needed it to do. I may very well stick with colorless, or close to it, for the GPT in my area on Saturday.
Here's my current list.
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
2 Coercive Portal
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Trinisphere
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Oblivion Sower
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Silent Arbiter
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All Is Dust
SIDEBOARD
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
Although it's obviously a slave to its topdecks, the deck has a lot of very proactive hate. Most decks can get around a single Sphere effect, a piece of graveyard hate, or a Needle effect, but they often run into problems when there's more than one. As much as I like the card, cutting Wurmcoil Engine allowed me to slot in Silent Arbiter, which is another answer to idiot swarms that some - BoozeCube, I think - have employed to some success. I would like to employ more card draw but am also hesitant to cut any protection or hate for a deck that is pretty much entirely sorcery-speed.
I probably had some bad luck and bad plays on my part. I agree that this match-up is manageable. I probably played against experienced players with good draws. It's also very bad when they hit multiples with cabal. These types of decks can have a devastating sequence of plays that wreck you b4 u even start playing... even a brainstorm can go a long way in salvaging a bad start.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I would love to play tabernacle but... $$$ i don't want to thinking about it. You know how sinful my soul is :laugh:
I'm playing a pair in the SB but I don't use them against them because of DRS. I'll give it a go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Most of the time you're going to die from creature damage or combos. The DRS is a thing, but usually you can cast it at least once. Also, the monoG list I've been playing with runs 3 O-stones, and I quite like them, although not necc in this abrupt decay wondercard matchup.
yes i'll give MP a go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponders
i wasn't impressed with o-stone. not only abrupt decay: stifle, pithing needle and phyrexian revoker wreck your day. Happened to me several times and i decided to drop o-stone.
abrupt decay is just sick and should be banned probably. alternatively they could print a card to hose it. Cost U: exile target instant spell :tongue:
You explain your choices inside?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Okay, I'll explain some of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by caprino
The deck is, and plays like, a mashup of Eldrazi Aggro and classic 12-Post. It's quicker to the ground than 12-Post generally is without sacrificing inevitability. It's not as fast as Eldrazi, but it has more staying power. It does not have the turbo that 12-Post can have with Candelabra of Tawnos, but again, it still has a much better early game.
The biggest weakness of the deck is its inability to improve card selection. There's no tutoring, shuffle effects, or library manipulation. Because of this, the deck needs to be proactive about putting up defenses and advancing its board state via card quality. Almost every single deck has a problem with Sphere effects: there is a reasonable chance of landing a Trinisphere on turn 2. The deck has seven maindeck Needle effects to combat combo and Wasteland. The other 1-drop is Relic of Progenitus, which fights Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler as well as the more obvious graveyard-based combo decks. It also has play with one of the deck's main threats, which I'll outline below. The last "hate bear" is Silent Arbiter, which is tough to kill in combat, can't be answered by Abrupt Decay, and stops one of the things Post often has problems with: creature swarms.
The deck has ten creatures which qualify as threats. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is obvious, as is Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. Since this deck has to be proactive, it tends to dump its hand fairly quickly, which is why I think Kozilek, the Great Distortion makes slightly more sense than Butcher of Truth. I average about five cards drawn per activation. In addition, Kozilek can protect the rest of the board, and with a Silent Arbiter on the board he can't be blocked. Thought-Knot Seer is also an awesome threat. This deck has a reasonable chance of dropping one on turn 2, and in addition to just being a solid body, it also can pre-emptively answer combo or sideboard answers. Lastly is Oblivion Sower. He's, well, interesting. At 5/8, there is pretty much no Legacy creature that can actually kill him in combat without deathtouch or friends. The cast trigger is also huge. Taking out four cards can lead to sideboard answers getting removed. Grabbing a Wasteland or Karakas is awesome. Anything that taps for mana ramps you. Also, it is a slight hedge against Blood Moon effects: Sower can be cast under Moon, and even if you grab a fetchland or something, under a Moon you can tap it for mana.
All is Dust makes sense as a sweeper here as you can get it to 5 mana under Eye of Ugin and it doesn't touch your board. Lastly, this deck has room for both Ugin, the Spirit Dragon and Karn Liberated. Both make sense in this list. Both can win the game by themselves. Ugin can sweep, and Karn functions as spot removal, which the deck otherwise lacks. With a slightly higher creature density, the deck is more likely to be able to protect them: especially with an Arbiter out.
The deck also wants to draw more cards. Coercive Portal helps with that, although it would be nice to run more than two.
The sideboard is mostly self-explanatory. Ratchet Bomb can answer tokens, Needle effects, or Chalice of the Void on one. If you can board out some of your own 1-drops, Chalice becomes excellent for us. Cursed Totem answers any creatures with abilities that matter: Qasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Elves, or whatever else. There's more grave hate with Grafdigger's Cage and more Sphere effects to give you a better chance against most combo decks.
Nice..side in and side out Vs miracle, ant, d&t, elf, shardless bug, team America, rug delver, burn, dredge, eldrazi aggro, sneak attack, omnitell,agro loam, land, jund. I write you side in and side out for next tournament ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Very interesting list. Why no Expedition Maps or Warping Wail?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
There isn't much argument for Map in this list and it was one of the first things I cut. With a lack of ways to improve card selection, a toolbox approach is much less practical. Most of the tutorable lands Post runs are covered by different cards, so all Map can really do in this list is guarantee your next land drop. While it's always important to make them, the fact that the deck still needs to be proactive means that I would have to sacrifice proactive cards in order to run Map.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Wail sort of works in the same way, with the caveat being that Wail can be much more powerful. Still, though, I've tried to cover its utility with other cards in the deck. Most of the cards - the threats included - play more than one role. Relic is graveyard hate and can also combine with Oblivion Sower to accelerate or give me redemption if my opponent Wastelands me. Thought-Knot Seer is a good body with combo hate. The titans are self-explanatory. Even Silent Arbiter arguably makes this deck's threats deadlier in that they become even harder to kill since the opponent almost always has to rely on spells to take them out. Wail is the one card I sort of go back and forth on, but I mostly feel that between the Sphere effects, the Needle effects, and the fact that most of the threats serve more than one purpose, its power is largely compensated for in the deck.
I have a GPT tomorrow and I think I am going to try this 75 - or very close to it - at that event. Hopefully it will give me the best indication as to whether this configuration is viable: otherwise I will probably just go back to monogreen.