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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I'm personally not a fan of Copter, but if it works for you - by all means. It's a good card that has its merits, but there are also alternatives to playing Copter that make Light up the Stage a better option.
Honestly, I think Stage is just better in the mono red version of Painter. If you have the ability to play Lightning Bolt and interact with opponents on a more aggressive axis like the older versions of Painter used to, I can see the merits of playing a set of these. I tried them in Shortcake, but I just couldn't find the space to run them anymore. (I still think that the card is incredibly broken.)
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
I'm personally not a fan of Copter, but if it works for you - by all means. It's a good card that has its merits, but there are also alternatives to playing Copter that make Light up the Stage a better option.
Honestly, I think Stage is just better in the mono red version of Painter. If you have the ability to play Lightning Bolt and interact with opponents on a more aggressive axis like the older versions of Painter used to, I can see the merits of playing a set of these. I tried them in Shortcake, but I just couldn't find the space to run them anymore. (I still think that the card is incredibly broken.)
I wouldn't go as far as to say that stage is 'broken', but it certainly feels that way when you can cast it for R.
I think you're right though; in mono red, i'd go with 3-4 fiery confluence, 4 lightning bolt and even 4 bomat courier just to get the weenie beats in, enable spectacle, and steal a win before my opponents can stabilise. With that sort of build, even if my opponent's sitting on say 8 life, it's quite possible to whittle it down to 0 before you know it.
Last night, i was on shortcake, and i think i realise there and then that especially against controlly/grindy decks, copter is really horrendous. I'd rather straight off hard-cast stage for 3 than have a copter in play not doing anything.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Sir, you are a madman! haha! I've never seen Ring of Ma'ruf played. like ever. I had to read it multiple times just to see what it actually did. For some reason, i expected it to be an ante card even. I must say though, is that a 5-cast, and then 5 to activate? it seems overcosted for what it does, especially since karn does the same thing?
also, I'm liking the gorilla shaman thing (i assume they're for lattice). If I were you, i'd strongly consider something like sandstone oracle for card advantage on the wish board. and/or something like grim monolith main for mana ramping. If you're planning to go all-in on the lattice strategy, i might try to convince you to go 2 shamans and 1 heretic. Some permanents might end up having high enough CMCs that make the shaman un-usable (I'm thinking stuff that's cheated into play mostly. think anglers and stuff).
Also, what's the slash panther for? is it for killing opposing PWs? I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are; but I'm assuming that you think karn is the amazings.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
schweinefettmann
Sir, you are a madman! haha! I've never seen
Ring of Ma'ruf played. like ever. I had to read it multiple times just to see what it actually did. For some reason, i expected it to be an ante card even. I must say though, is that a 5-cast, and then 5 to activate? it seems overcosted for what it does, especially since karn does the same thing?
You're running Faithless Looting and four Goblin Welder. This is to augment Karn in the event he is shut down by Needle, etc. With seven Sol lands, five mana is rather easy to get to in the event you really need it. And when push comes to shove, it becomes a 5/5 with Karn. This is effectively a Wish board for Painter, and since Karn is there as a four-of, having something extremely unique like Ring is perfectly fine to augment that strategy as a singleton to grab something you need in a pinch - especially since the architecture of the sideboard is designed to shop for whatever you need when you need it.
Quote:
also, I'm liking the gorilla shaman thing (i assume they're for lattice). If I were you, i'd strongly consider something like
sandstone oracle for card advantage on the wish board. and/or something like grim monolith main for mana ramping. If you're planning to go all-in on the lattice strategy, i might try to convince you to go 2 shamans and 1 heretic. Some permanents might end up having high enough CMCs that make the shaman un-usable (I'm thinking stuff that's cheated into play mostly. think anglers and stuff).
Liquimetal Coating is also there for Shaman to machine-gun lands (in addition to enable Welder), as is Lattice to shut them down. Additionally, cards like Gambit allow Chalice on one (which will become less and less a thing I think with the new EE land), and smashing those decks by blowing up Chrome Mox, etc. is very enticing.
Quote:
Also, what's the slash panther for? is it for killing opposing PWs? I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are; but I'm assuming that you think karn is the amazings.
Panther is there for a quick source of fast artifact damage when it's crunch time and you need something to finish the game immediately, or a Planeswalker. I do think the deck could use one equipment to turn 1/1s into legitimate threats. This version of Painter attacks the mana base very, very aggressively.
Keep in mind that playing Gorilla Shaman also adds another dynamic to the deck: it makes Blood Moon a sure-fire win condition augmenting that plan by destroying Mox Diamonds and the like. It also punishes combo decks misplaying their artifact sources where Shaman can blow up LED, or destroy cards like Needle on Grindstone.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I think Wurm coil engine is likely the best beater for us to find with Karn if that is what we are looking for. I have debated some other monsters like Inkwell and Spinx, but they seem to gimmicky in the deck and make relying on Welder an issue I would like to avoid.
Batterskull and things like SoFI and SoLS may also warrant testing, especially if Copter remains a 3-4 of in the deck.
I think the Needle on Karn is something to consider. Needle is underplayed relative to Revoker in general. We do need to consider it but the beauty of the deck is that if they needle Karn our combo and Copter and Welder are free to run all over them. So blind calling Karn is likely good for us. and if they call a resolved Karn we at least had one activation for value which is also good.
I have already started testing the Karn list after talking with Jack. I am looking forward to real games on MTGO soon. I will look to have an updated list sometime early in May I assume. Will likely need a couple days testing online before I post anything just to help with refinement.
Seth
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sroncor1
I think Wurm coil engine is likely the best beater for us to find with Karn if that is what we are looking for. I have debated some other monsters like Inkwell and Spinx, but they seem to gimmicky in the deck and make relying on Welder an issue I would like to avoid.
Hey Seth, Wurmcoil is a good one. My reasoning for Panther is that, if you're pigeonholed on four or five mana and need to deal damage quickly or to finish the game, that can be a fast source of damage in a hurry. It can also kill Planeswalkers in a pinch. If you're getting to six mana, Mycosynth Lattice is really the best you can do, because it just wins you the game immediately. But Panther is there effectively as an artifact "burn" spell to speed the game up.
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Batterskull and things like SoFI and SoLS may also warrant testing, especially if Copter remains a 3-4 of in the deck.
I'm not a fan of Batterskull too much. SoLS is good, but SoFI can conflict with Painter on blue.
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I think the Needle on Karn is something to consider. Needle is underplayed relative to Revoker in general. We do need to consider it but the beauty of the deck is that if they needle Karn our combo and Copter and Welder are free to run all over them. So blind calling Karn is likely good for us. and if they call a resolved Karn we at least had one activation for value which is also good.
I think Needle or Revoker on Grindstone is the more realistic choice though.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Chalice on one (which will become less and less a thing I think with the new EE land)
The new EE land starts on 1 counter and only goes up. Can't hit Chalice with it.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I don't think you need the ring. If they needle Karn you have 2 Gorilla Shaman, 4 Welder (if they have artifacts in the yard), and 5 blasts (with painter obviously) to kill needle. I personally also think splitting 3/1 or 2/2 on Karns is a good idea. It's pretty sick that new Karn can fetch cards that old Karn exiled too.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
@ Hollywood- You are absolutely correct about the value of Slash Panther. But I can def see the value of its ability to kill a Planeswalker is really strong. And that was something I had not considered. It def will require testing as I like the increased reach you are going for. My thought about the Wurmcoil was that in a vacuum its likely the best creature we can tutor up do to its various abilities, removal avoidance and positive interactions with Welder. It is probably correct that we have a couple dudes in the side to get with Karn.
I totally agree with you that the needle on Karn is basically a great play for us and it unlikely from good players unless Karn is already running away with the game. Not that you said this, but I wanted it in the thread that if Karn gets hit with Needle that is actually a good thing for the deck in general.
The idea of equipment is totally untested to be honest. Batterskull is nice bc it also provides body. While SoFI is a nonbo with Painter, it does have some insane upside with Copter. But to be fair all the swords have potential merit and may warrant testing. In your shell I would imagine that even Jitte has so benefit.
My main goal is that we ensure that we are expanding the potential cards we consider in this setting as the new Karn is tried. Clearly Karn into Lattice is one of the strongest lines for us, but I want to sort of leave no stone unturned so to speak.
I need to test the Mox Monkey as its one of my favorite cards. Karn might just make it so he becomes the artifact answer of choice also as he can be immediate and is a good value for mana sunk making him better than Heretic while having desired repeatability that Vandal always lacked.
@Megadeus- I think new Karn just straight up outclasses the old Karn and the way that the wish board can be abused I think sort of forces the play. The main driver for old Karn was the general value engine it was and his ability to constantly fuel Copter for improved card selection and advantage as the game wore on. New Karn is less a value engine, and more an immediate threat to just put the game away, but to do that we need to sort of reimagine parts of the deck. In doing so I think you really need him as a 3 of to utilize the constants on the sideboard, and its hard to see the deck needing or properly using a 4 drop that also isnt a tutor with his upside.
Seth
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
So I proxied mr keller's above-mentioned decklist and gave it a quick whirl. It's pretty good and surprisingly quick on some hands.
I think the 4 karn will be the new sort-of lynchpin to the new imperial painter build. Previously, the stompy shell has been good, but with blood moon's value going down recently (i've at least seen more basics in my local), i like the idea of being able to attack mana in a different way.
I also like that the 4 karn pushes out combo pieces to being the equivalent of 7 MD (1 of each on the wish board), but i suspect that having 4 painters main is probably still better. my reasoning being that we have recruiters main, and we probably don't want to be over-reliant on the karn (who's better suited to just lock the opponent out).
I'm not thoroughly convinced i like the blast zone land. sure it's a non-counterable, nearly non-interative explosives, but not being able to hit things that are relevant (i.e. opposing chalices) seems pretty bad. trying to land the blood moon first to then land the blast zone to then somehow remove the blood moon and then nuking their chalices doesn't seem good. I'm also doubting that we'd have the luxury of running a thespian's stage.
Just to make sure I'm playing the deck right (or at least along the plans of what you'd built it as), the plan is to lock out the opponent, overwhelm their removal/pieces of interactions, then at the same time cobble together the combo. Sort of like the original imperial painter, but now with more mana-hate and mainboard artifact hate+manipulation, and less reliant on the blasts.
On the subject of equipment, i don't think any of them are typically going to be any better than a wurmcoil engine. gains us life, is naturally hard to kill, and isn't reliant on another creature to make it work.
I've been trying to figure out if there are any other cards that could work as PW-hate; fleetwheel cruiser does 5 damage at the same cost (one-hit only though), and Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer can be used as a one-shot if you have either wurmcoil token and a bunch of myr from the battlesphere. I'm guessing it's a win-more though.
On a more serious note though; i've been adding anger into my Rx painter builds. 2-3 anger basically makes all the welders an instant threat, the battlespheres can get warped in with all the tokens and threaten some non-insignificant amount of damage (seemingly out of nowhere). I get that heavy damage isn't what the deck is trying to do, but hasty welders are amazing.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
@Seth: I hear you. I just think this version now that Karn is a thing just skyrockets the deck's viability. The red version has always attacked mana aggressively with Blasts and Blood Moon; I see it differently now with Karn and Lattice, but adding Welder as a four-of with Coating and Shaman to augment Karn and win by attrition.
It's also superior against Turbo Depths, for what it's worth. Gorilla Shaman makes short work of Mox Diamond and gives the deck an added dynamic of attacking resources or combo pieces (with Coating). I just think that it could use an equipment main to turn the 1/1s into serious beaters, just like the older iterations did with SoLaS.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
@Seth: I hear you. I just think this version now that Karn is a thing just skyrockets the deck's viability. The red version has always attacked mana aggressively with Blasts and Blood Moon; I see it differently now with Karn and Lattice, but adding Welder as a four-of with Coating and Shaman to augment Karn and win by attrition.
It's also superior against Turbo Depths, for what it's worth. Gorilla Shaman makes short work of Mox Diamond and gives the deck an added dynamic of attacking resources or combo pieces (with Coating). I just think that it could use an equipment main to turn the 1/1s into serious beaters, just like the older iterations did with SoLaS.
So are you on more Liquidmetal Coating now? The 1-of in the main of your last list obviously wouldn't cut it...
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mirrislegend
So are you on more Liquidmetal Coating now? The 1-of in the main of your last list obviously wouldn't cut it...
Yeah I haven't posted a new list, but I've been tinkering with two in the main in another list and looking at three. It's actually more gross with Karn than I thought it was. I also misread the Explosion Zone text; it does indeed come into play with a counter on it. I still think it's powerful enough to consider as a one-of, maybe two, just because of its straight-power level.
But Coating with Shaman and Welder is just crazy. Also, if you can hit the play on the roll, Gorilla Shaman is just a blowout against decks wanting to slam Chalice on one.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Michael Keller
Yeah I haven't posted a new list, but I've been tinkering with two in the main in another list and looking at three. It's actually more gross with Karn than I thought it was. I also misread the Explosion Zone text; it does indeed come into play with a counter on it. I still think it's powerful enough to consider as a one-of, maybe two, just because of its straight-power level.
But Coating with Shaman and Welder is just crazy. Also, if you can hit the play on the roll, Gorilla Shaman is just a blowout against decks wanting to slam Chalice on one.
Are there other 1-cmc or more targets that we're very worried about? I'm struggling to come up with one beyond chalice and counterbalance (and without top, it's not amazing).
and just curious, is your typical line of play to lock the opponent out with karn + lattice first, or to try to liquimetal+shaman or set up some sort of welder shenanigan?
Also, having tested your list a bit (and believe me, i do like it, and i'm glad that there are skilled brewers like yourself to save me from my own crappy builds), I've been wondering about that battlesphere. Is there a particular reason it's there over say a sundering titan? I guess i just missed all the obvious lines with it.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Blast Zone should be changed to a 0-1 count, because Karn kills Chalice anyhow. I’m interested to test its utility.
The line of play matters on the hand. My list is fluctuating a lot right now; Battlesphere is there to go wide and is brutal with Welder in play.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
After some more messing about with the build, I feel like 6 mana for the lattice after dropping karn, or being able to 3 mana flashback the looting and weld it in has been tricky.
Also, once it hits play, it’s game over, right? Is there anything at that point that my opponent can meaningfully interact with?
In most games I’ve played as well, shaman has been middling to win-more. If he doesn’t land pre-chalice, it’s bad. If he lands before, it’s good. But it’s interaction with liquimetal coating I think is too cute/slow, but with lattice, it’s pure win-more. I get what it’s trying to do, but I’m not convinced it’s earning it’s place in the list.
Currently, I’m running testing sundering titan, combustible gearhulk, sandstone Oracle and wurmcoil engine in its place (some configuration of 1-ofs, and max 2 total), then replacing some SSG and petals with grim monolith. Bigger mana that can be welded, and can be used to straight off cast some of these bigger dudes if the game goes that long.
I think the oracle or gearhulk might be playable MD, simply cuz of cards. The correct choice for the opponent is almost always to just give me cards rather than potentially taking a chunk of life AND have something welded back in for the gearhulk. Wurmcoil and titan are good, but I don’t like having to dilute the business too much.
Also testing a sneaky 1-of daretti scrap savant as a welder with haste or looting, whatever was needed more. Seems to be good, actually, but the 4cmc is a tad heavy with the karns and all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
schweinefettmann
After some more messing about with the build, I feel like 6 mana for the lattice after dropping karn, or being able to 3 mana flashback the looting and weld it in has been tricky.
It’s not the deck’s primary win condition, but with Karn in play and available mana, it’s effectively game ending.
Quote:
In most games I’ve played as well, shaman has been middling to win-more. If he doesn’t land pre-chalice, it’s bad. If he lands before, it’s good. But it’s interaction with liquimetal coating I think is too cute/slow, but with lattice, it’s pure win-more. I get what it’s trying to do, but I’m not convinced it’s earning it’s place in the list.
What are you testing against? What sample size are you predicating your results from? Karn ices Chalice, so that’s four answers main deck there. That’s light years ahead of where traditional iPainter lists were, where it’s Rabblemaster or bust.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Tested against grixis control, lands, 4c loam, some hybrid of miracles and stoneblade, and dnt. Also did some ‘for fun‘ games with burn.
Not sure if this is the best way to test, but I generally try to analyze individual plays mid-game, with my opponent. And I test 1 game pre board, and the rest of the games post. I’m sure there are more effective ways to test tho.
What I meant was that I’m not really sure when gorrlla shamans pull their weight. I need liquimetal and/or karn and lattice for it to really wreck house (most they can do is beat for 1/crew a copter or hit a wayward random artifact). But by the time karn+lattice hits, it’s already a win for me. With liquimetal coating, its a 2-card synergy where I could have just had more blasts (that being said, repeatable-blasts are awesome). I feel like I always need more cards that help me when I’m behind as well, and not just when I’m already in front. When I’m behind, I need something that can kill a mentor, or angler, or some other threat.
Like I said, I’m probably missing some real noob lines, and can definitely accept that I need significantly more reps than I’ve been able to put in.
That being said, I like cobbling 2-card synergies like that, so I might just keep it in anyways.
On a side note, I’m trying out some grim monoliths to go with karn for winter orbs + welders. Seems pretty legit good most of the time.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
This is why I mentioned needing a good equipment to bolster the smaller threats. The old Painter list I played ran Sword of Light and Shadow; there’s plenty to choose from.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Is it not just better to run Abrade? Like it's a generally decent card that just turns into instant speed vindicate with coating or lattice out. I know the ceiling isn't as high as Shaman, but it's generally always decent and I think some level of consistency is needed since the deck does tend to have some inconsistent but high level power plays
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Is it not just better to run Abrade? Like it's a generally decent card that just turns into instant speed vindicate with coating or lattice out. I know the ceiling isn't as high as Shaman, but it's generally always decent and I think some level of consistency is needed since the deck does tend to have some inconsistent but high level power plays
You could run some split of the two. I think it’s correct to run at least one Shaman because of the ceiling, but Abrade is always typically useful.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Current standard painter prison list to try out. Scion of Urza might just be better off as Chandra. I could see a list going away from moons and Bridges, but for me the whole reason to play this deck is the prison elements that it provides. I would like to try a welder and copter version again at least since it can allow for Lattice/Karn locks in the same turn Karn comes out
Imperial Painter:
Maindeck (60)
1 Walking Ballista
3 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrade
2 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
10 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Current standard painter prison list to try out. Scion of Urza might just be better off as Chandra. I could see a list going away from moons and Bridges, but for me the whole reason to play this deck is the prison elements that it provides. I would like to try a welder and copter version again at least since it can allow for Lattice/Karn locks in the same turn Karn comes out
Imperial Painter:
Maindeck (60)
1 Walking Ballista
3 Goblin Welder
1 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
3 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Abrade
2 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
10 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyroclasm
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
Looks like a pretty solid list to me. The thing i've been trying to do is to have more card sifting in faithless looting. It allows us to dig deeper into the deck, pitch big artifacts to weld in. Also, running grim monoliths allows us to sneak-cast some of the bigger artifacts/machine-gun opposing artefacts with gorilla shaman. It's not the most amazing list, but it can get some good work in, sneaking some wins while my opponent is messing about with dealing with PWs. Not sure if your plan is somewhat similar.
Also, the sideboard looks weird 'cuz i play almost exclusively in a local meta for now.
4 imperial recruiter
3 grindstone
3 painter's servant
4 goblin welder
1 gorilla shaman
4 karn, the great creator
2 daretti, scrap savant
4 faithless looting
3 smuggler's copter
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 magus of the moon
1 ensnaring bridge
3 grim monolith
2 lotus petal
4 great furnace
4 ancient tomb
3 crystal veins
4 snow-covered mountain
4 mountain
sideboard
1 grindstone
1 painter's servant
1 mycosynth lattice
1 sundering titan
1 magus of the moon
1 ensnaring bridge
1 tormod's crypt
1 faerie macabre
1 combustible gearhulk
1 ratchet bomb
2 pyroclasm
1 sulfur elemental
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I've definitely been thinking of going hard on looting and welder and such. You can do some busted shit. I just don't like the inconsistencies or the fact that grave hate actually becomes relevant. One of my favorite things is when my opponent brings in grave hate to stop welder and I just ignore it and win anyway. I definitely like the thought of it though. Also I like having the full 4 painter in the main because you already have recruiter to find it and drawing one naturally is usually good. You being on less blasts and the full 4 Karn I can see the appeal to having one in the board
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Here's my final list for a team event in the morning that is expected to see around 25-30 teams
Imperial Painter:
Maindeck (60)
1 Walking Ballista
3 Goblin Welder
2 Goblin Cratermaker
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Lotus Petal
3 Grindstone
2 Smuggler's Copter
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
10 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
I'm not 100% sold on the sideboard, but I think it may suffice. Keller is definitely right about Karn and Copter. Having a decent thing to +1 on is pretty sweet. And with welder you can do some fun stuff with copter and things you wish for with Karn
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Not that it’s likely the case, but I noticed Liquimetal Coating shot up to like 25 bucks for a foil copy this week - after that event I top 8ed.
LOLz.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Went 3-2 as a team (4-1 personally) and just snuck into T8.
List posted above for reference.
R1 Miracles
G1 he doesn't really know what I'm doing but I'm blasting his shit and I get Chandra to 7 but he had councils judgement for it and then I kill him with the combo.
G2 I'm doing okay but he gets mentor down. I have magus and regular moon out but he cantrips a bit and then councils. He vote for magus and I vote for my own blood moon to unlock my Sol lands. He unfortunately attacks me to 2 and I resolve painter and stone but ancient tomb can't be used so I die.
G3 I have cratermaker but I'm stuck on 2 mountain. He plays and taps down for mentor. I go to kill it expecting him to surgical to blow me out but he doesn't. I surgical his mentor and see surgical in his hand. His hand is pretty stacked but he has useless back to basics and such. I top deck Sol Land. Bait his Force with Chandra. He Jaces +2 me leaving in top. I draw mountain. Red blast Jace. Play Karn and +1. He judgements but taps out. I draw another Sol Land and painter stone him.
R2 UW RIP Helm Combo
G1 I have a good start with painter and blast up. I blast something and get grind stone down with 3 Mana open. He has a white fetch up though so I pass with just lands left in hand. On his turn he plays plains, fetches, taps out for councils judgement and in response I kill him
G2 I go turn 1 welder. He has turn 2 RIP. I make a smugglers copter. He makes energy field. I make Karn and go get thorn of amethyst and cast it.
He plays luminarch Ascension. I Karn for lattice, play Sol Land, and pitch Spirit guide and he's tapped out and dies.
R3 Sneak and Show
G1 pretty uneventful. I don't do a whole lot and he sneaks me on turn 3 I think.
G2 I keep a pretty weird hand with a turn 2 grindstone activation with surgical in hand. I cast grind stone and he abrades painter. Then he needles grindstone (lol). He casts show and tell with 3 in hand. So my hand is like blood moon, magus of the Moon, cratermaker, red blast but my only lands are tomb and City. What would you put in? Cratermaker answers emrakul, but magus/blood moon turns on my hand so I can maybe red blast an omniscience. I put in magus. He puts in emrakul. Fuck. I top deck land and play it. I cast cratermaker, he forces, I blast force, pitch sprit guide and crater his emrakul. Start attacking while he draws not much. Unfortunately he kills my magus after I've got copter going and I don't find dudes to throw in it and he eventually gets me.
R4 UW Blade
G1 I Jeep a 7 that can turn 1 Magus. He doesn't force and I assemble a legion of shitty men while he draws a bunch of Islands but no white suede and eventually dies while having true names and Narset to my copter.
G2 he plays Island ponder and shuffle. Despite boarding OU a number of moons I turn 1 Moon him again. He doesn't have a second land and I do stuff. Eventually he stone forges once he finds plains for BSkull. I Ballista SFM so he taps out to cast skull. I can either blast skull or blast plains. I figure I can race skull if I need to so I blast plains and then combo him a couple turns later.
R5 White Eldrazi
G1i get painter plus blasts going and he makes a jitte. I blast his TKS and then play bridge. He scoops to it.
G2 he goes turn 1 Temple pass. I go mountain sprit guide Painter. He attempts to tomb TKS but I inform him his TKS is not Colorless and therefore Temple doesn't work. He slumps and passes. I make a bunch of terrible plays and fetch all the wrong things with recruiter and I'm coptering him to death while he finds the new Dovin. Eventually I pyroclasm the board and kill him when he's got a Thalia and Containment Priest in play.
T8 Sneak and Show (fuck)
G1 I do some stuff and beat him to 9. Blast his show and tell but he finds sneak and sneaks in GBrand. Draws 7. Sneaks in emrakul. I blow emrakul up before attacks and he gains 7. He draws 7, show and tells omniscience and casts another emrakul :'(
G2 I keep a super mediocre hand but it can bring some pain. I get him low with copter and I've got painter and dudes out. I recruit up a welder. He gets sneak attack but no red Mana. I attack him. Unfortunately a couple turns later he finds petal. I have welder up and copter back to block in case he just attacks with GBrand I can block with copter and weld away to deny lifelink or weld out my painter to be able to cratermaker emrakul. He Sneaks in Griselbrand. Draws 7. Sneaks in emrakul. I weld my painter for a thorn he countered earlier. Cratermaker emrakul. I take a shot on the chin from GBrand. I find bridge. I loot scoot away bridge and pass. He sneaks in Griselbrand at 4 life. Goes to attack. I'm at 9. I weld in bridge for thorn. He sneaks in cratermaker to blow up bridge.
Unfortunately at this point my teammates have both lost so the match is over. I think I actually win this game since he doesn't have cunning wish in his deck and on my turn I get to weld bridge back and he doesn't have many more ways to deal with it. Idk how this match would have finished, but man it was actually exhilarating being right on the cusp at all times.
Take aways from the event: I think the deck felt very good. The only thing I think I wanted was a revoker. If I had revoker to find with recruiters I may have beaten sneak and show. Definitely missed that guy. Not sure what the cut should be. Maybe the second crater maker? Maybe I go down to 2 welder?
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Thanks for the report, Megadeus. I've tried Copter in both the Boros and mono-red build. I really like it in the Boros build, but don't really care for Copter in the mono-red build. I think it's because how I approach both builds differently. I approach the Boros as more of a combo build, and try to have a lot of cards that works better in synergy. While in the mono-red build, I approach the playstyle as a control/prison deck first and foremost, where I care more about the card quality of each card. I've also been seeing a lot of Null Rods from fair decks, so I think it's worth playing 3-4 copies of shatter effects post-SB, excluding Cratermaker. I also think the it's correct to have 8 blasts post-SB vs. Miracles, because CB is a card we must answer on the stack, and BTB can randomly get us. 8 blasts is also good vs. SnT, because we need Karn to revolve to get Crypt to make the combo work, and to counter SnT.
My build is pretty similar to yours:
Lands (22)
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
Creatures (16)
4 Imperial Recruiter
3 Painter's Servant
2 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Walking Ballista
Planeswalkers (6)
4 Karn, the Great Creator
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Artifacts and Enchantments (10)
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Grindstone
Instants and Sorceries (6)
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
SIDEBOARD:
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grindstone
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Painter's Servant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Abrade
2 Fiery Confluence
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
I've also tried other stuff like Liquimetal Coating, Wurmcoil Engine, Coercive Portal, Ratchet Bomb, etc, but never felt compelled to wish for them.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Yeah copter might be better in a white build with ETutor for sure. I just found my goblin welders to be lacking a bit when I wasn't running copter and I've always liked the pressure that it can provide. It can be awkward with Ensnaring Bridge for sure though. That's why I like Karn and Welder though. Karn can make Copter a 2/2 and give it a better chance to attack under bridge, and welder of course gets to bring bridge in and out on demand to make copter attack when needed.
Also why no petal? I noticed you only run 2 pieces of fast mana. Do you ever find yourself being too slow because of that?
Edit: New Goblin Welder.
1R
1/2
When ~ CITP entomb an artifact.
R tap: sacrifice an artifact. Return rather artifact with CMC 3 or less to the battlefield. Card is so sick for us I think
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Quote:
Yeah copter might be better in a white build with ETutor for sure. I just found my goblin welders to be lacking a bit when I wasn't running copter and I've always liked the pressure that it can provide. It can be awkward with Ensnaring Bridge for sure though. That's why I like Karn and Welder though. Karn can make Copter a 2/2 and give it a better chance to attack under bridge, and welder of course gets to bring bridge in and out on demand to make copter attack when needed.
Yeah, I agree with your assessment of Goblin Welder, which is why I am only playing with two copies.
I do like the early game utility of Copter though. Copter also allows lines where you can cast Karn and cheat in Lattice the same turn, so I don't want to discredit the card. I do think the card is good, and has a lot of synergy with the deck.
In terms of card selection, you are playing 2 Copter, 1 Chandra, and 3 Karn. I opted for 2 Chandra and 4 Karns. Chandra has more synergy in the mono-red build because it's a reliable win con under Bridge, and can dig for the combo.
Quote:
Also why no petal? I noticed you only run 2 pieces of fast mana. Do you ever find yourself being too slow because of that?
At first, I've tried 20 lands/2 Petals/2 SSG, but found the mana base to be unreliable at times given how heavy the curve of my deck is.
I then tried 22 lands/2 Petals/2 SSG, and found the mana consistency of the deck much better, especially in terms of having a reliably red source; however, not very good in the mid-late game when I was flooding out. I found 22 lands/2 SSG to be a good compromise. I chose SSG over Petal because SSG makes a good blocker with Bridge, and I actually like to keep blasts until it's ready for use. And no, I do not find the deck too slow because of it. It's definitely a tad slower, but I think the deck is more consistent because of it.
Quote:
Edit: New Goblin Welder.
1R
1/2
When ~ CITP entomb an artifact.
R tap: sacrifice an artifact. Return rather artifact with CMC 3 or less to the battlefield. Card is so sick for us I think
I love it.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Back from a small event. Unfortunately I don't think many people knew about it because the event wasn't advertised, but I decided to bring out a wonky Liquimetal Coating List because the shortcake version was super sweet. No Moons is probably wrong, but I figure the package I brought in was also able to deal with problematic lands
4 Painter
4 Recruiter
3 Welder
1 Revoker
1 Goblin Cratermaker
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Walking Ballista
3 Grindstone
2 Liquimetal Coating
2 Smuggler's Copter
3 Lotus Petal
4 Karn, The Great Creator
2 Abrade
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Great Furnace
4 Tomb
4 City
10 Mountain
SB
1 Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Grindstone
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroclasm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thorn of Amethyst
Round 1: UB Deaths Shadow
G1 He plays a fetch and passes. I dont remember this game all that well, I just remember he fetched and shocked a few times, forced something, then he played a shadow with 1 card in hand I played painter, he dazed, and I had more than enough mana to activate grindstone.
G2 He's on the play and thoughtseizes me. I play basic into grindstone and pass. He cycles street wraith and reanimates it, also fetches and shocks and plays shadow, I play sol land and ballista. He dismembers ballista and we're fairly quickly onto game 3.
G3 I keep a hand of like 4 Mountain, Grindstone, Painter and recruiter? I think. Turn 1 Grindstone resolves. He shocks and ponders. I draw thorn and cast it. He dazes. He shocks, surgicals thorn, sees my hand and ponders. I draw spirit guide. Third land and cast recruiter, he dazes. I pitch spirit guide and get second painter. He plays a shock and passes. I draw second spirit guide. play 4th land, cast painter with 2 mana open. he only has a watery grave. He taps down to dismember painter and I pitch spirit guide and activate. I did punt here I should've named black with painter just in case of snuff out, but he doesn't have it and I win.
Round 2: Eldrazi
Was a bit worried here because we played a bit before the event and he rolled me 4 out of 5 games.
G1 I keep a double tomb, karn, spirit guide, red blast, cratermaker, and grindstone hand on the play. Turn 1 I tomb into Grindstone because I want to get it under chalice and I dont want to tomb pass and he wasteland me. He Caverns on Ape and passes. I Tomb into Karn. I don' really know what to do here so I just +1 and attack with a grindstone, but I think I should've wished for Coating to start that process next turn. Either that or wish for bridge. I just figured that my hand was going to be unable to cast much since I didn't have a red source bridge might be bad. he goes temple pass. I draw coating like a champ and start Karning his lands away. He plays some inconsequential Mimics but I find a copter. After he stops playing land I make copter a 2/2 with karn to be able to block because tombs have me at a low life. I draw painter but am at 4. Go to 2 for painter and have great furnace with blast up. I skillfully draw city of traitors next turn and win. This was a match where I wish I had LED in the board to go get with Karn and win on the spot. Something to think about.
G2 He goes Eye of Ugin into double mimic. Oh fuck. I tomb into painter which turns off eye and temple. He goes for Warpng Wail but I have monkey + blast. He makes a chalice. I skillfully rip abrade for the chalice and have blast up. I take over with Painter + Copter but I'm stuck on 2 lands and he's got 2 mimic hitting me back. I draw a pyroclasm and get both mimics. At some point I find land and win with grindstone. Painter turning off eye and temple saved my ass because he was about to follow up his turn 1 mimics with a turn 2 Thought Knot and just run me over.
Round 3: BUG Walker Nic Fit with Karn
G1 I keep a turn 2 win hand but he thoughtseizes away my painter. I make a welder and petal and pass. He plays veteran explorer and has black open. I play city of traitors and cast grindstone off my mountain. I could go for it here, but I'm weary of Push and if I get to next turn I can go off with blast backup. His turn he liliana, -2, in response I activate grindstone hold priority and welded in Painter.
G2 He thoughtseizes again and sees Gorilla Shaman, liquimetal coating, spirit guide, karn, and 3 lands. Takes Karn. I gorilla shaman and pass. He veteran explorers and passes. I coating, pitch spirit guide and stone rain him. I stone rain him every turn for about 6 turns and keep him off of veteran explorer. Finally kill explorer when he's out of lands and then kill off one of the lands he gets. He had take out a painter earlier and eventually I get welder, painter, and a grindstone and kill him when he's at 0 lands in play.
I was the sole 3-0 player so I win the event and get the prize. Cool! Gogo painter!
Deck actually felt alright. I don't know if this is what I'd play at a big event just because moon and bridge are so powerful, but it was certainly a blast to play. I think I may pick up an LED though here at some point for my Karn wish board. I think wish the new goblin engineer LED might have a place in the deck.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Karn & coating & shaman did work for you, sounds like! Congratulations on the win.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I absolutely would have gone for Bridge with Karn. That or Meekstone (I play, though), which is fantastic against TNN decks, DT, Eldrazi, etc. Sometimes you have to wait a turn to get Bridge online, so it forces an opponent with Meekstone out to attack you or Karn, so even if Karn sucks up damage the Meekstone locks them down.
Good work!
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Thanks for the report, again. I agree with Michael that you should have gotten Bridge vs. Eldrazi.
I've been testing Liquimetal Coating as well and have been more impressed by it. A lot of times, I'm not in a position to go all in on Lattice, due to lack of Mana or fear of Spell Pierce. Coating also makes Blood Moon better vs. Miracles, because it's easier to cut opponent off white.
How do you feel about playing on 5 blasts in the MD? I have a hard time playing less than 8 in the 75, especially vs. Miracles and SnT.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Coating and Karn is basically Crucible/Strip Mine. It’s just so much more dynamic than that because of the synergies it has in the deck with Welder, Shaman, etc.
You have to be realistic sometimes: Lattice generally is going to eat either a counter, or Karn will die. I’ve resolved that combo one time since it’s been legal, and Coating with Karn like ten times. Even in multiples, Coating “Null Rods” a land of theirs during their upkeep with Karn out.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Yeah I probably should've gotten at least something. Likely bridge just because it's something that they straight up can't beat at a certain point. And yeah agreed on coating being good. There was a turn where I needed to animate my Copter with Karn just to have a blocker and Coating still got to essentially Port his land that turn. And I definitely think a Mana source to wish for could be worth it. I'm not sure if it should be an Opal, LED, Petal, Furnace or something completely different. I think it at least needs to be a colored source so I'm not sold on monolith.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I think Grim Monolith is more reasonable than LED in the context of our deck if you want a ramp. I don't like the idea of forcing ourselves to go Hellbent; blasts are a valued resource, especially to win counter wars. I think the safest mana source to get off Karn is Great Furnace. I want to add mana source in my SB, but I don't have room for it.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
I've tried 4 grim monoliths before i tried LEDs, and they're good, i guess, but surprisingly slow. What i mean is that you're going from 2 mana to 5, sure, but it's like a one-off ritual that you're most likely going to have to welder out and back in. If you're playing LEDs, there's no loss in tempo for a plus 3 mana. the cost of ditching the hand is nothing if you're going to win (when that happens). sure going hellbent isn't great, but the grim monolith is going to set you back 1 more turn at minimum.
bear in mind that this was a build where i had sundering titans, 2 myr battlesphere, 1 red gear hulk and 4 sandstone oracles, with 3 mono red darettis and 4 welders, and pre-karn era.
Maybe i should give monolith another shot. Does anyone have a spicy list out there for me to have a go at? especially in this wild-west time of legacy where the meta's completely out of whack, i feel like whipping out a really nutty version of painter for a spin.
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Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter
Run a league with this list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Great Furnace
9 Mountain
1 Walking Ballista
3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Grindstone
2 Liquimetal Coating
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grindstone
1 Painter's Servant
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Damping Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
Ended up 2-3 since I punted a lot(experimenting painter)
Wins against D&T and Cloudpost
Losses against BR Reanimator and 2 S&S
I found that i missed 1 way to deal with artifact creatures.
Something like Viashino Heretic as opposed to the 2nd Gorilla Shaman would be better from that league.
LED was really meh.
Missed the Bridges main
Missed the Cratermaker
Loved Revoker
Think Ballista can be a tutor for Karn instead of Recruiter
Copter was also average. might try to decrease on them and experiment with looting.
Sideboard needs serious work, but from tutorable options, these ones were great:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grindstone
1 Painter's Servant
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Damping Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Still not sold on the lattice, I can't imagine using it more that 1 time on a 10 round tournament.
