anyone tried the white package with enlightened tutor and heliod's land? does open us up for more combo hate consistency and white enchantment hate in the sb
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anyone tried the white package with enlightened tutor and heliod's land? does open us up for more combo hate consistency and white enchantment hate in the sb
I just posted a Heliod’s list that has been overperforming, no enlightened tutors as I don’t want to lean too far into white.Quote:
Originally Posted by N01INK
Another 4-0 at FNM tonight.
Beat RG Karn, Depths, Merfolk and Goblins.
Before this becomes a monologue, I will also report another FNM win with RG Lands. Pretty much stock list, I would guess.
Mainboard
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wrenn and Six
3 Punishing Fire
2 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian’s Stage
3 Rishadan Port
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Blast Zone
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
Sideboard
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pyroblast
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Subterranean Tremors
1 Force of Vigor
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
1 Drop of Honey
This list with some minor changes has served me well this year with cashing almost every tournament I played in (got Blood Mooned out of a few FNMs).
Finally got my Drop of Honey. :D
I have yet to see Wrenn in action, though. May include a second copy.
Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by JDK
Meta feels real good for lands list with all kinds of planeswalkers floating around and blue decks keeping combo away.
I just placed 2nd at an Open. A report is in the Tournament Reports tab if you are interested.
--Mainboard--
-Lands- 36
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Dark Depths
2 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Blast Zone
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Waterlogged Grove
-Spells- 24
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
2 Wrenn and Six
2 Gamble
1 Sylvan Library
--Sideboard--
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Choke
1 Blast Zone
What do you guys think about my build? Do you like Leyline/Blast Zone in favor of a more classic board with Drops?
I feel like I will try and move the Karakas into the side and try a 3rd Depths or a 2nd Blast Zone again. Glacial Chasm underperformed without Manabond in the deck. Might end up cutting it to but i fear like we need it. Blast Zone and Spheres were MVP (along with Ancient Tomb) in the tournament.
First: the list is hard to actually look at as it is a pile of cards that are mostly foreign.Quote:
Originally Posted by RinEU
Second: reading your report, your wins were based on the strength of the normal cards and your SB tech changes had minimal effect on the matches played. Ie the manaless player was still dead to a sphere effect and your normal plan.
Congrats on the big finish! Lands is in a great place right now.
Drop is really good against all of the Delver decks now and really sets you up against DnT, as does Force of Vigor. Blast zone is really good and some people have been playing 2 main.
You can attribute the sideboard to being meta specific, as you did have a BR Reanimate deck in the top 8, but you did great playing through your hard matchup and stomping your easy ones.
The more important question is why are you off of force of vigor and drop as they both would have helped today?
Concerning the Force fo Vigor: Delver and Miracles are kinda popular here. I felt like the Split Second of Krosan Grip would be more important to kill winter orb, counterbalance and other random enchantments than force of vigor. I agree that the Force would have been stronger versus DnT but as I said, I did not think I would be facing the deck with all the W&6s running around here currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Since I wanted to try the Leylines in the board I needed to make some space. I tried the second Blast Zone in the Drop slot and have to admit that I did not miss it at that tournament. The 4C decks even with Wrenn have a hard time going to resolve TNN in my experience (which is still pretty limited since those decks have not been around for long) against us. If Izzet with TNN makes a comeback I will definetly run drop again. I will do further testing and report back when I have more matches against these decks.
Thanks for the congratulations !
Here is the Decklist in written form :)
--Mainboard--
-Lands- 36
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Dark Depths
2 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Blast Zone
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Sheltered Thicket
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Waterlogged Grove
-Spells- 24
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
2 Wrenn and Six
2 Gamble
1 Sylvan Library
--Sideboard--
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Choke
1 Blast Zone
I have moved away from Grip for the most part as Force is a much better card in non blue matchups and still gets the job done in the blue ones. I have felt very favored in most blue matchups with spheres/chokes/trackers/normal things to counter, that having force has not came back to bite me yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by RinEU
In the non blue matchups, hitting 2 targets EoT is a big deal.
The only deck I would see the need for leyline is the BR Reanimate deck, which has a hard time getting around Crop Rotation. If you ply a ton of BR I would agree... the W6 games have tended to heavily favor is as they are durdling around and usually want to win through creatures, which we love.
The blast zone is fine as the card is so good and other than that, I think I am in the minority that W6 is not a good card for lands and am back on 4 gamble.
Hope to see more in the future from you
Interesting! Could you please give us more details about how and why you came to that conclusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Sorry,Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgobs
Been traveling all weekend and couldn’t respond after I had a long response disappear into the oblivion of the internet.
Basically/:
Game 1: We generally have 2 plans, a fast 20/20 or prison/grind with Loam. W6 does nothing to help a fast 20/20 and with no fear of graveyard hate, dredging Loam every turn is the best way to recur lands and grind. Gamble helps both of these plans, allowing you to tutor for a missing piece or for the Loam/land you don’t have.
Games 2/3: Either the above stands true, or the opponent has grave hate/ways to interact with A and B above. With the graveyard being compromised we bring in Tracker and other cards to interact with the opponent instead of just playing on autopilot.
Having another card that relies on the graveyard is not where I want to be, especially when Tracker fixes any problem that we usually have after board. Being able to +1 Wren means they do not have grave hate, which means Loam is more powerful.
There are situations where Wren will be active in the face of some sort of hate, but there are also situations where Wren is useless where Loam is untouchable.
i like this to get back permanents we can't normally get back, like Wrenn6 or sylvan library or just an exploration or two...
https://i.imgur.com/eEtOqSY.png
Doesn’t do enough, too slow, costs too much. Heliod’s was just printed for late game recursion, ruins has been around for a while and a turn 4+ Wren after you already have Loam active does not seem very strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
Edit: just won a 31 man event with straight RG combo lands. Still good
Chain Posting, haven't lost in over 20 matches with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Karakas
1 Field of the Dead
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Blast Zone
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
2 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Punishing Fire
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
Sideboard
2 Veil of Summer
2 Pyroblast
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Drop of Honey
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Krosan Grip
2 Force of Vigor
2 Tireless Tracker
Field of the dead changed the fair matchups to where I am not really playing additional creature hate or chokes in the board and get to play 2 Veil/2 Blast.
So what bumped Lands back to a Deck to beat?
Massive amount of Delver in the meta forcing out tons of combo and Field of the Dead making control matchups into actual byes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Epeirogeny
Anyone have any sb advice for a new lands player?
Also whats the reasoning of 4 Port over 4 GQ - too many basics in the format now?
I'm by no means a veteran Lands player, so take my experience/opinion with a pinch of salt. I started out playing with a 4 GQ build because of 'budget' options and because when I started with Lands that was actually a solid build. I have since gotten myself a set of Ports and I must say that I quite like them a lot. I still play a ghost quarter, but I surely prefer a 3 port/1 GQ over 4 GQ. I suppose one of the reasons is that it can also help in the mirror, against D&T, etc. Port provides a bit more utility, can switch between making mana and disrupting freely and depending on the matchup is also better at mana denial.
I haven't played for a while and was looking how Lands is doing.
I have seen that some Lands decks now include 'Oko, Thief of Crowns' (as well as 'Wrenn and Six'). They include blue (again) to play it. One also included black to play 'Abrupt Decay' but dropped PF and Gamble.
And I haven't seen one playing white in Lands.
So is the white way (reanimate enchantments) not so good? Is Oko a good card to include, even if it is not so good with loam and means to include blue again...?
I posted this on a local-to-NYC group but figured it might live here as well. (We need more Legacy tournament reports!)
This past Saturday, I attended the Legacy Monthly at Good Games NYC. For those not familiar with the New York MtG scene, Good Games is located in Astoria, Queens, and they have what I consider to be the best non-rotating format support in the city. They hold a Legacy weekly every Monday, and their monthly Legacy and Modern tournaments on Saturdays regularly attract 30+ players. They also hold some occasional (proxy) Vintage tournaments, which is always a good time, and they've begun offering significant support for Pioneer. Oh, and their collection of Eternal singles is pretty solid.
The December Legacy monthly had 35 players, which made for 6 rounds of Swiss.
End Result: 4-1-1 (ID) for Top 8, who then chopped prizes. Round summaries below the decklist.
My Decklist: BUG Lands
Planeswalker
4 Oko, Thief of Crowns
Sorcery
4 Life from the Loam
Instant
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
Artifact
4 Mox Diamond
Enchantment
4 Exploration
1 Sylvan Library
Land
2 Bayou
1 Blast Zone
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Field of the Dead
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Nurturing Peatland
4 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Waterlogged Grove
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
4 Flusterstorm
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Plague Engineer
Round by round:
R1: BUG Food Chain (2-1)
This player is one of the world's foremost innovators and players in the Food Chain archetype, and I had a heads up he was trying some spice with a Green Sun's Zenith package!
G1: A quick Marit Lage is tough for him to deal with, especially without a white splash for Swords to Plowshares.
G2: I stall trying to disrupt Leon's combo plan, and he makes a very smart shift to beat down with Griffins when my shields are lowered.
G3: Don't remember all that much here, but I believe another timely Lage is able to run away with it.
Note: He went on a great run after this and won out to also make Top 8! Well-deserved.
R2: Sneak & Show (1-2)
G1: A turn 2 Lage comes down to steal a win in perhaps the worst matchup I could reasonably expect to face on the day.
G2: I keep him tight on mana with Rishadan Port and Spheres of Resistance, but he's able to Show & Tell in a Sneak Attack, then swing with Emrakul the next turn.
G3: I just about stabilize with Rishadan Ports in play and a Choke in hand, even after having to Force of Vigor a Blood Moon. But before I can land Choke, he drops Sneak Attack and kills me.
R3: BUG Nic Fit (2-0)
G1: I only see two Islands and a Brainstorm before killing him with Lage.
G2: He develops a board full of every basic land he needs, but he has nothing to fight a resolved Oko on my side, which quickly takes over the game.
R4: UR Delver (2-1)
I find this matchup to be the toughest of all Delver variants, especially on the draw. They have lots of critters and enough burn spells to put the game away unless I can combo fast or start making a loot of Food with Oko. They also have a basic-heavy manabase that can be tough to attack.
G1: He's on the play and quickly lands a Delver into Dreadhorde Archanist into Young Pyromancer. He sequences beautifully and gives me no shot at coming back.
G2: I'm able to land enough acceleration via Exploration and Mox Diamond to make an early Lage. He Submerges it, but I combo again the next turn, just in time to keep him from burning me out.
G3: I take a risky line early to Crop Rotation for a Tabernacle, which ends up slowing him down while he pings away with an unflipped Delver. I eventually find a Maze to answer the Delver. I'm then able to lock him down with Port and Choke while making enough Zombies with Field of the Dead to go on the offensive. He had some very rough draws this game.
R5: Infect (2-1)
G1: I'm able to cut him off mana completely after Ghost Quartering his only basic. Winning was easy from there.
G2: I played horribly this game, making a bunch of sequencing errors and even getting my Lage elked by his Oko. (Seems like Infect is playing one or two in the 75 now.) We get in an Oko battle and I make a terrible block, and he just grinds me out here.
G3: I mulligan pretty aggressively and am able to land a Plague Engineer to keep him on the back foot. He fetches for a Savannah, so I sense Swords to Plowshares out of the board, and I wait to combo until I can tap down or remove all his white sources during his second main phase. The plan works, and I swing for the win.
R6: Humans (ID), puts me at 4-1-1
Standings go up, and I'm in 4th out of ~35 players heading into Round 6, and it's safe for me to ID into the Top 8. I actually have to leave to head to an event, so I vote to chop but will just take a loss if the rest of the competitors end up playing it out. Fortunately for me, everyone decides to chop. (Seems about even as far as when players decide to chop vs. play it out at these, though it's always fun to hold the elimination rounds when time permits!)
If I were to run the deck back, I'd swap a fetch for another Tropical Island, and potentially move the Tranquil Thicket to another Field of the Dead or other utility land.
So, if this thread/forum is not dead (really, what happened to this thread? So many changes in legacy Lands and just one reply) I really would like to have some answer...
I had to find out (after one month) that Wren and Six is banned in legacy; so skip that :wink:
- Is Oko (and with Oko, play blue again) the new way to play Lands (because Oko is THE WAY to get rid of creatures...) or just an equal alternative to red with PF?
- If you replace PF and Gamble (so: red) with Oko, I understand why to play black then instead of red. But couldn't you include Entomb, Intuition or Tolaria West for tutoring (because Gamble is gone)? What about the good old Dark Confidant, if you play black? Or is this all really not needed?
- Is white, after we finally have our Enchant-Academy-Ruins, still no alternative?
Well, the thing is that almost everyone shifted to the discord server. It is more complicated to search for precise information, and thus the same questions are often posted again and again, but the answer are really fast and often of very good quality. Anyway, fact is that if you want some answer from good and actives Land (and Depths) players... well, you should go there.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
Here's a link: https://discordapp.com/invite/AYJPM2d
Hi!Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
I am on the discord server but hate the format and how discussions progress, would much rather stay on the Source.
Some answers!
Straight RG is still the de facto best list, streamlined and gives you the best matchups across the board.
Oko is very good but I would say meta dependent at this point. If you are going to play against Oko and midrange decks all day, oko and abrupt decay is tough to beat, but field of the dead is also pretty much unbeatable if you can get it running. Dave Long, the guy that first played oko, has already switched off of the card but has stayed RUG for sideboard cards. Entomb, Intuition, Tolaria west are all slower than the gamble alternative which is why, imho, gamble is superior. Gamble is good to tutor for sideboard cards turn 1 against bad matchups. I just gambled for Veil of Summer T1 when I didn't have the sphere to play... any other alternative tutor would be a dead card.
Heliod's Hall is generally considered to be too slow. I go back and forth with the card but can also say that in multiple events I have not activated the card once... Field of the dead has replaced the need for most other endgame options.
TLDR: Gamble is the best tutor option, Field of the Dead is an absolutely dumb magic card and people are moving to 2 copies in the 75 to be able to ensure the card goes "online"
the discord is very active, but so sad that the source is becoming irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
yeah, it's a sweet card for control lands. i got my foils back in june.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
if Oko isn't banned, U/G lists with sylvan library and 1 Sevinne's Reclamation along with Karakas is my go-to...
I was super wrong and can easily admit that. Sevinne's Reclamation is also good, but unneeded imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
Also, that post is taken out of context! You asked about BUG control, and I said 7 was too much. In lands I think field was picked up pretty quick.
yeah, that's my bad i wasn't clear enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
i was referring to lands control from back in the day when we didn't run red and was mostly U/G splash black with creeping tar pit, worm harvest,
oblivion stone, tolaria west, and only one copy of dark depths.
that's where i want to go back to and one Sevinne's Reclamation lets me loam without obsessing.
field of the dead would've won me so many games against counterbalance back in the day...
Field of the Dead absolutely would have wrecked back in the day, imagine pre-marit lage lands with field. I currently find myself winning with field 30-40% of the time. Even against combo decks, landing lock pieces and attacking with zombies while porting and holding up Rotation/Veil has been a great option.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
Thanks a lot and good to see at least some people are still here. I went on that Discord thingy but have the feeling I'm too old for that stuff :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Also good to hear that RG is 'still' the thing. But I was always playing RuG and try to keep the 'control' part if it's possible. (Actually I was frozen like Marit Lage for about a year and still have my RuG deck with EE, so before Blast Zone.) That is why I'm asking about white. I thought I replace the EE with Blast Zone and Academy Ruins with Heliod's Hall and add some Enchantments to reanimate and still have my deck. :wink: my RuG was always slower than RG decks and I really like Tolaria West as a almost uncounterable tutor (not working so well for enchantments like it was for the EE, yes). But I also don't like PW as they don't really fit in the Loam stuff, so good to hear that Oko is not a must.
But as I mentioned, so many things happened last year. The Field of the Dead was something I've heard and forgotten (and is now out of stock at my local store), but seems to be a must have now. Veil of Summer was never in my mind and seems to be a thing too(?). The Blast Zone switch was clear even for me :wink: Heliod's Hall was so long awaited and then not used and then Wrenn and Oko, Wrenn off again...
As you can see, I'm lost just because of one year... Do I want to play RG now... or RGw or stay RuG with Oko now or even BuG. If I know that, which cards should I include (main or side) and which one not (and how many and how to use them)? I'm sure now that I have to include Field of the Dead and Blast Zone; but especially I'm unsure about:
- Oko
- Choke
- Veil of Summer
- Drop of Honey
- Cindervines
- Crucible of Worlds
- Sylvan Library
- Riftstone Portal
- How many fetches
Sorry about that but maybe you can give me some light :smile:
The white version is easy enough, just play Karakas and a sheltered grove along with your horizon canopy and hall. He best cards are molten vortex main and drop of honey side.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSpellMaster
The Oko builds haven’t settled on a list yet and are not finished yet. I also can’t believe I forgot to tell you about blast zone, card is nuts.
You really don’t need another color with recurring EE built into your lands baseline.
Jump back in and have fun! The meta feels fine right now.
since i'm back to a U/G manabase, i'm gonna run this as a one-of...
http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/u...tureswrath.jpg
Card looks fun, UUGG might be hard on the old manabase though.Quote:
Originally Posted by non-inflammable
Card is gross, covid is bad for magic, and discord is really murdering forum threads for decks that are specialist-decks, since we all just stick to the one deck community...
the discord thing drives me nuts. you don't get the same sense of history you get trawling through old forum pages and there's not an easy way to just point somebody towards X post or even have a primer (ig you can link a google doc but nobody's clicking that).Quote:
Originally Posted by amalek0
plus most of the ones I've joined feel like cliques.
anyways sorry for my off-topic boomer moment, carry on with landsposting.
You're not the only one who feels that way, my man. Finding specific information about various decks can be challenging, and the discussion may not entirely be conducive toward developing the best play styles and deck builds when you're stretching among various Discord servers...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sella
This heavy creature maya list got 6th on sat challenge
Reclaimer/flagstones/valakut is definitely sweet.
Why is apparition good in lands? Double offcolour contorts your manabase, it makes bolt better vs you, and you have no cavern/vial/flickers to abuse it. It seems worse than oring on average.
Is lands still considered a good deck? I’ve been playing mono g 12 post for 3 years and think of lands as an “upgrade”. I already own a tabby thankfully. I think there are some similarities between the two decks, so it would be fun to pick up. I’m also thinking on the back of an oko/labe ban before paper magic comes back
Lands is definitely still a good deck, the recent bans have made it a lot better and it's been putting up decent results, especially considering how few people play it in big events.
Valakut exploration was a big upgrade.
And I think regular lands has 2 builds that could both be competitive as Saga and non Saga lists are currently playable.Quote:
Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
Two currency converter lists:
One inspired by punishing thieves. https://pendrellvalecom.files.wordpr...4332.jpg?w=768
One inspired by my loam pox take. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVu33ySU...jpg&name=small