Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I think one of the important questions now is... in Memphis, how many CB decks will adapt and be ready for Emrakul.
It may be (is) necessary to find a cheap DD stack that kills with tendrils. Anybody got anything better than the Brainstorm>LED>LED>IGG>Tendrils?
That one requires UU, two cards and a brainstorm in hand (could also be done with preordain/ponder if you wait a turn) and only deals 18... I think. That's about the best (for the current list) I could find on Emidln's list (Cheeseburgers I suppose)
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
I think one of the important questions now is... in Memphis, how many CB decks will adapt and be ready for Emrakul.
It may be (is) necessary to find a cheap DD stack that kills with tendrils. Anybody got anything better than the Brainstorm>LED>LED>IGG>Tendrils?
That one requires UU, two cards and a brainstorm in hand (could also be done with preordain/ponder if you wait a turn) and only deals 18... I think. That's about the best (for the current list) I could find on Emidln's list (Cheeseburgers I suppose)
You probably won't find much better than that unless you want to start packing a Meditate or Ideas Unbound in the board. Or running SDT, which vastly improves your Doomsday options.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I've been trying out 1 Top (in place of my chrome mox in my list a page or so back)
It's been pretty underwhelming on the whole. It seems like with so many shuffle effects it should be very strong, but it suffers from Lim Dul's Vault Syndrome (doesn't actually net you a card - without swapping it at least... which is fine the turn you are killing them, but fairly bad the rest of the time) Still, I agree it does make some piles look much better.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
I've been trying out 1 Top (in place of my chrome mox in my list a page or so back)
It's been pretty underwhelming on the whole. It seems like with so many shuffle effects it should be very strong, but it suffers from Lim Dul's Vault Syndrome (doesn't actually net you a card - without swapping it at least... which is fine the turn you are killing them, but fairly bad the rest of the time) Still, I agree it does make some piles look much better.
It makes the one you listed lethal I believe, and also makes the pass-the-turn BS/IGG pile lethal.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AriLax
You have it backwards. 3 life turns into 1 or 2 life because of DD.
20-3 = 17
20/2 = 10
floor(17/2) = 8
19-3 = 16
floor(19/2) = 9
16/2=8.
I really don't like going all in on the Doomsday post board as I have flexibility in my stacks if I get to hold a second DD or Chain or more mana sources, so LED Infernal is out.
You don't have to be all-in on Emrakul to play 4 IT, 4 DD. You just have to learn to play with Tendrils piles. Someone has written a lot about doing just that, but I forgot his name...
IMO, the boarding plan I'd run with your 75 against CB would be:
+4 Doomsday
+1 Emrakul
+1 Shelldock Isle
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Chain of Vapor
-4 Preordain
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Island
You only need 1 Chain of Vapor to put it in a Doomsday pile as a storm engine or to bounce something.
The trickbind would have been a lot more useful as a Wipe Away, which is something that can actually answer hate cards and does something in your most common Emrakul piles.
Outside of that, I'd have liked to see a Meditate in your sideboard and 1 SDT in your maindeck to enable some nifty piles for those games when you want to have more threats (the Doomsdays) but don't necessarily want to Emrakul (you end up looking something like TK's list from the past summer postboard in this instance) so that you can ADN, DD, or IT. Most people who rely purely on permanently-based hate cannot beat Doomsday for Chain of Vapor + Tendrils kill. As an aside, anytime you need to win fast, t1 Doomsdays with the SDT allow you to do pretty insane stuff with these six for just 2 mana (obv one has to be in hand with the rest stacked and you need another turn + an extra card):
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
SDT also plays well as a 1-of with Chain of Vapor letting you stack both to build storm and draw extra turn the doomsday.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
You don't have to be all-in on Emrakul to play 4 IT, 4 DD. You just have to learn to play with Tendrils piles. Someone has written a lot about doing just that, but I forgot his name...
IMO, the boarding plan I'd run with your 75 against CB would be:
+4 Doomsday
+1 Emrakul
+1 Shelldock Isle
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Chain of Vapor
-4 Preordain
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Island
You only need 1 Chain of Vapor to put it in a Doomsday pile as a storm engine or to bounce something.
The trickbind would have been a lot more useful as a Wipe Away, which is something that can actually answer hate cards and does something in your most common Emrakul piles.
Outside of that, I'd have liked to see a Meditate in your sideboard and 1 SDT in your maindeck to enable some nifty piles for those games when you want to have more threats (the Doomsdays) but don't necessarily want to Emrakul (you end up looking something like TK's list from the past summer postboard in this instance) so that you can ADN, DD, or IT. Most people who rely purely on permanently-based hate cannot beat Doomsday for Chain of Vapor + Tendrils kill. As an aside, anytime you need to win fast, t1 Doomsdays with the SDT allow you to do pretty insane stuff with these six for just 2 mana (obv one has to be in hand with the rest stacked and you need another turn + an extra card):
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony
SDT also plays well as a 1-of with Chain of Vapor letting you stack both to build storm and draw extra turn the doomsday.
Lets rephrase that: I'm fine with being all in on DD-Emrakul post board as a plan. I'm not fine with having to pull on in on casting a single DD off an Infernal Tutor. I've won a lot of post board games by playing a DD two turns in a row.
The summary of why I don't like Doomsday main is this: In goldfishing, all of the time I would kill with DD I could have killed with a Tutor, and not every time that I could have killed with a Tutor could I have won on the spot with DD. Top is also miserable with Cabal Ritual, which is actually unreal when Thresholded and is awkward with your early game sequencing. The upside is a main deck Chain of Vapor, which might be important if Zenith Zoo starts wanting to MD Teeg you. I may have been missing some good mass the turn piles, but I'm pretty sure I understand most of the on the spot kills.
Also, I think that stack works with a second Brainstorm instead of the Top.
UU to start with.
Storm into Storm, LED LED (1, U, Library is X, X , IGG, Tendrils)
LED, LED, Storm, crack in response for UUUBBB, keep IGG (4, UUUBBB, library is X, X Tendrils)
IGG for LED, LED, Storm (5, UU)
LED, LED, Storm, Crack in response, Tendrils for 18.
Needs one more spell, where as the Top adds that, but it's pretty close.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Out of curiosity, how many of you guys are "all in" on turn 1. What I mean is, if you can go for the win on the first turn, do you?
Say your hand is -swamp, dark ritual, lotus petal, cabal ritual, ad nauseam, ponder, fetchland.
(what about these scenario's)
It's game 1 turn 1 on the play -
It's game 2 turn 1 vs. a deck with force of will -
You are on the draw and your opponent plays tundra < SDT -
What if the ponder (or the fetchland) is a duress/thoughtseize?
just curious.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
Out of curiosity, how many of you guys are "all in" on turn 1. What I mean is, if you can go for the win on the first turn, do you?
Say your hand is -swamp, dark ritual, lotus petal, cabal ritual, ad nauseam, ponder, fetchland.
(what about these scenario's)
It's game 1 turn 1 on the play -
It's game 2 turn 1 vs. a deck with force of will -
You are on the draw and your opponent plays tundra < SDT -
What if the ponder (or the fetchland) is a duress/thoughtseize?
just curious.
I would rather go off on two rather than ad Naus with 0 floating on one on the play in anything but the mirror. On the draw I would hold against anything but the turn 1 Top start. If the Ponder is a Duress/Seize I would wait against almost anything I think and T1 the Duress.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AriLax
I would rather go off on two rather than ad Naus with 0 floating on one on the play in anything but the mirror. On the draw I would hold against anything but the turn 1 Top start. If the Ponder is a Duress/Seize I would wait against almost anything I think and T1 the Duress.
I agree, better safe than sorry.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AriLax
I would rather go off on two rather than ad Naus with 0 floating on one on the play in anything but the mirror. On the draw I would hold against anything but the turn 1 Top start. If the Ponder is a Duress/Seize I would wait against almost anything I think and T1 the Duress.
so the waiting is more a clause of not wanting to AdN with 0 floating than of worry about disruption?
I only ask because I waited in DC versus Countertop rnd 1, (albeit on the play) with the same hand (scalding tarn<Island<ponder on 1) and got smashed by his brainstorm < FoW. (or at least he said it was off the bstorm... no way to be sure) which is obviously one out of a million scenarios... but it got me thinking as to whether it's worth just "making them have FoW" and (basically) just losing right then if they do.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
so the waiting is more a clause of not wanting to AdN with 0 floating than of worry about disruption?
I only ask because I waited in DC versus Countertop rnd 1, (albeit on the play) with the same hand (scalding tarn<Island<ponder on 1) and got smashed by his brainstorm < FoW. (or at least he said it was off the bstorm... no way to be sure) which is obviously one out of a million scenarios... but it got me thinking as to whether it's worth just "making them have FoW" and (basically) just losing right then if they do.
If you know he plays counterbalance on round one, you could go for the 40% chance and hope you can combo-out succesfully, since you only have a very limited ammount of start-mana left (3 petals 0-1 chrome mox) that's not a funny math you're facing. (assuming you play ari's list.)
This time he found it with brainstorm, can happen, you could've died to an active force as well, or you could've won.
a damn lot of chance, but 40% + the chance you find a dark ritual + start mana or cabal +2 petals is also not that great. Add it together and I know for sure you go above the 50% chance to lose. aka not worth the coinflip.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
so the waiting is more a clause of not wanting to AdN with 0 floating than of worry about disruption?
I only ask because I waited in DC versus Countertop rnd 1, (albeit on the play) with the same hand (scalding tarn<Island<ponder on 1) and got smashed by his brainstorm < FoW. (or at least he said it was off the bstorm... no way to be sure) which is obviously one out of a million scenarios... but it got me thinking as to whether it's worth just "making them have FoW" and (basically) just losing right then if they do.
Like, if the 2nd land was another Dark Rit, it would depend on if I had the read or not.
Also, ignore what I said about 0 floating. Forgot its turn 1 so you can just set up and ship to kill on 2 if you know they have no way to deal damage.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
@leegoo
If you suspect that they play CB and you just want to go all in, the best option is to play Petal, say go. Then play Ad Nauseam in their upkeep.
I think the best option in general is to play Petal + land and pass the turn and see what happens. If you play Ponder instead of holding up mana for AdN, you can get really screwed if your opponent opens with Thoughtseize, Chalice@1, etc. Your hand is so fast that you don't lose much by not playing the Ponder turn1.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Everybody's suggestions sound good.
@ Kikoo - I admit I'm quite guilty of forgetting that Ad Nauseam is an instant.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
@ Practical Joke - Look at you being in the spotlight.
Nice article Ari.
After reading it, how do you feel about possibly putting a SDT into the board? It seems like boarding the DD's in, but (probably) not the Emrakul/Shell dock combo would give you more action vs. BUG. I'm not a fan of top either main, but it undeniably makes your DD piles more attractive (and more lethal)
This also makes DD a little bit "better" as a sideboard choice "overall." Since it becomes a bit more effective in more than one matchup.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
@ Practical Joke - Look at you being in the spotlight.
Nice article Ari.
After reading it, how do you feel about possibly putting a SDT into the board? It seems like boarding the DD's in, but (probably) not the Emrakul/Shell dock combo would give you more action vs. BUG. I'm not a fan of top either main, but it undeniably makes your DD piles more attractive (and more lethal)
This also makes DD a little bit "better" as a sideboard choice "overall." Since it becomes a bit more effective in more than one matchup.
thanks,
shame I can't read the article -.-
@ leegoo: I don't think 2x SDT + meditate will increase any match-up with anything we have available already.
You can iggy/chain tutors ftw against aggro, so doomsday has no gains here and we got a doomsday plan vs counterbalance that work.
I'd rather use those 3 sideboard slots for decks that have been bothering us now, like the dark tempo treshhold list (which is a nuisance really)
I did like the trickbind though, haven't actually thought about it and covers up the whole random answer thing like karakas.
@ ari: thanks for mentioning me in the article, glad the doomsday plan worked out great.
tried xantid swarms yet?
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
practical joke
@ leegoo: I don't think 2x SDT + meditate will increase any match-up with anything we have available already.
You can iggy/chain tutors ftw against aggro, so doomsday has no gains here and we got a doomsday plan vs counterbalance that work.
there are a couple of dd piles that work with just a singular sdt. That's all I was suggesting, not 2x + meditate.
As the BUG deck (dark threshold, team america, whatever) runs a ton of bad cards for ANT... I can see a possible 1-of of show & tell in the board too...
dd < bs, show & tell, emrakul, ----, dd) seems like a way around their stifles and wastelands.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
practical joke
@ ari: thanks for mentioning me in the article, glad the doomsday plan worked out great.
tried xantid swarms yet?
Haven't tried Swarms yet. That's in the queue for the time between now and the GP, which is a while.
leegoo: The SB Show and Tell actually seems interesting. I'll have to try it out.
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AriLax
Haven't tried Swarms yet. That's in the queue for the time between now and the GP, which is a while.
leegoo: The SB Show and Tell actually seems interesting. I'll have to try it out.
I actually had a sideboard plan that I sent to practical joke. Feel free to try it.
4 Doomsday
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Trickbind
1 Wipe Away
Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
there are a couple of dd piles that work with just a singular sdt. That's all I was suggesting, not 2x + meditate.
As the BUG deck (dark threshold, team america, whatever) runs a ton of bad cards for ANT... I can see a possible 1-of of show & tell in the board too...
dd < bs, show & tell, emrakul, ----, dd) seems like a way around their stifles and wastelands.
not taking an extra turn can be kind of rough here due to them also typically run edict effects. consuming Vapors and or diabolic edict, which can definitely still get you if you are not careful, but like o ring or karakas, not always guaranteed, so probably still good. still interesting though. also getting to 3 mana through stifle and wasteland is kind of rough I would imagine. plus the discard disruption they run, quite an uphill battle in this loadout.
I feel like in the tempo matchups, stifle+discard and cheap clocks is pretty miserable to fight through
