[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

I haven't actually had to play against combo with zoo much, oddly enough. I would always run some kind of hate in the board for it though. However, I wonder how well do you think we could push the matchup up, even if we dedicate the sideboard slots? Do you think that we can push the win % up enough to justify even devoting any slots to combo?

And yes, the maindeck is slower than I usually tend to run, I think. One of my questions is if this mana-intensive slowness is going to be more of a detriment or not, because I honestly don't know. It's not as if it's "that" much slower, I think, but it is somewhat. My hope is that the cost of some speed will give more strength on the whole.

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I was tinkering around today and was considering a speed-oriented build with 12 Fetchlands, 4 Steppe Lynxes, and 2 Gaddock Teegs main, plus 10-11 burn spells (with no Apes, Figures, Mystics, Knights, Libraries, or Equipment). I was then considering bringing in a few 0-drop hate cards (Chalice of the Voids and Mindbreak Trap) and one or two copies of various 2-drop hate cards (Null Rod, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thorn of Amethyst), making for about 7-8 sideboard cards total. A good ANT player could certainly play around those pieces of hate with bounce, creature kill, or being smart about Mindbreak Trap, but that strategy may buy two turns, and it seems the deck can consistently deal enough damage in that time to prevent Ad Nauseam, while still maintaining enough board presence to dispatch them if they tried a mini-Tendrils. My sideboard strategy would be to board out your 7-8 copies of Path to Exile and Grim Lavamancer, because the former are dead cards and the latter are too slow, so that sounds like a good number of hate cards from the sdieboard to bring in.

Incidentally, I was also thinking of playing a few REB/Pyroblast effects main because I have yet to face a deck at my LGS that doesn't run blue. That meant I could commit my sideboard to being lighter on blue-hate, while sideboarding extensively for storm combo and graveyard decks. I would count on our superior removal to carry the day against aggro strategies, although at the end of the day, I'm not sure that sacrifice is worth it.

I think if I were to play Zoo next time, it would be a midrange build similar to what you have, but I'd consider just punting the combo matchup. It seems like it would fare well against tribal, blue decks, black aggro, and even Reanimator (fast enough to race, has graveyard hate, and the combination of burn, white removal, and Basilisk Collar on either Grim Lavamancer or a fatty provides enough outs alone).

Actually, the combo matchup is in large part why I've been considering the benefits of chain lightning vs. lightning helix. I understand helix's ability to gain life, but ultimately I've never found it largely relevant, considering it's best use is against other aggro which we do well against already. The drawback can sometimes be bad, but I think it's easy enough to play around. The benefits of chain, however, is that it can speed up our clock against combo since we don't need to have two mana for it. But I think it can speed us up in general as well. (I guess minorly too if you get any 3 chain/bolt/lavamancer you can take down an Iona, but that benefit is likely marginal.) At least when I've played with it I've prefered the lower cost over its drawbacks compared to helix.

Congratulations to Matt Elias on winning the SCG 5k Legacy Open with zoo. This was his build:

Maindeck:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path To Exile
3 Price Of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price Of Progress
2 Pyroblast

It seems to be a very interesting build with the steppe lynx x3. The only change I would make is that I wouild probably play 2x Sylvan Library and something else main instead of the Price of Progress because the libraries allow to find exactly what you need and PoP is sometimes a dead draw.

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Originally Posted by raptorcardz

Congratulations to Matt Elias on winning the SCG 5k Legacy Open with "SLIGH".

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There we go, fixed.

@Valtrix: I like REB because it deals with pesky blue mages, which these blue matchups are getting worse and worse in my opinion. RWM is a beating and so is Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Plus a REB on a Trinket Mage is usually game over for Counterbalance players.

I've always found Helix to be clunky but necessary. I think it's needed in this format. And the Stoneforge package is good, but it's just player choice in my opinion. You're not damned if you do or don't run it.

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Originally Posted by raptorcardz

Congratulations to Matt Elias on winning the SCG 5k Legacy Open with zoo. This was his build:

Maindeck:

Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 Loam Lion
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path To Exile
3 Price Of Progress

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Lands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Price Of Progress
2 Pyroblast

It seems to be a very interesting build with the steppe lynx x3. The only change I would make is that I wouild probably play 2x Sylvan Library and something else main instead of the Price of Progress because the libraries allow to find exactly what you need and PoP is sometimes a dead draw.

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Knight of the Reliquary is all this list needs for the mid game. You don't want to be messing even further into the late game where most decks beat Zoo. Hence the lack of Sylvan Library.

As for the dead draw part...well welcome to not playing Force of Will. Path is dead against combo, PoP is dead against basic heavy mana bases.

TL;DR it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by raptorcardz

It seems to be a very interesting build with the steppe lynx x3. The only change I would make is that I wouild probably play 2x Sylvan Library and something else main instead of the Price of Progress because the libraries allow to find exactly what you need and PoP is sometimes a dead draw.

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Not a fan of Sylvan Library anymore. It might have been good earlier in the year when the format was a lot slower and dominated by Counterbalance, but now games won't last long enough for the slowly improving card quality (used in combination with fetchlands) to be worth the investment. Moreover, the Library is a -1 card advantage investment up front, and it will take 4 life to recoup for that a turn late and at a cost of 1G, which is a hit to your tempo. So really, you need to serve up 8 life for there to be any benefit at all.

It will still break open the occasional attrition war, but I think I'd rather just pack burn and slam to the dome, or if I'm leaning towards a slower build, Stoneforge Mystic can get me specific card advantage (and the equipment cards are capable of blowing the game open).

Edit: I had thought that KotR didn't belong in a fast deck like this, but I absolutely love the synergy. In this deck, KotR's activation ability effectively says: "Tap, sacrifice a forest or plains, pay 1 life: Creatures you control named Steppe Lynxes get +4/+4 until end of turn. Add R, W, or G to your mana pool. Creatures named Knights of the Reliquary you control get +2/+2. Next time you would activate an ability from a creatures named Grim Lavamancer, you may do so without removing two cards from your graveyard. Occasionally, all creatures named Tarmogoyf get +1/+1. Thin your library out of unwanted lands and shuffle your library afterwards." Of course, it also does stupid tricks like mess up Wasteland effects, colorfix your Wild Nacatls (but not your Apes/Lions), cycle your extra lands for more fuel, finds lands for Fireblast, and reduces the heat you take from your Price of Progresses, as well as being an obviously huge beatstick when it boils down to it.

Edit #2: I don't really like the Loam Lions because a 2/3 doesn't really seem to do much for me early, it isn't a great topdeck, and it frequently messes up your Exalted triggers. Unfortunately, I can't really seem to find too many creatures that I like, so I dug deeper and came up with two possibilities that might get me laughed out of this thread, but feel compelled to bring up anyway (mostly to have someone talk me out of it if I'm truly insane): Mother of Runes or Weathered Wayfarer, of which I'm leaning towards the former.

The former obviously protects your fatties or utility creatures from removal or helps make them unblockable, and in a pinch, can absorb damage from an attacking Rhox War Monk (preventing lifelink) while you search for topdecked burn to close out the game. The latter has great synergy with your fetchlands, Horizon Canopy, and Fireblast; minimizes mana screw in matchups where that's your opponent's only real chance at beating you; and keeps your Lynxes, Lavamancers, Goyfs, and KotRs live if the match progresses to the midgame where your opponent is trying to stabilize; answers recurring Wastelock; and draws Horizon Canopy late in the game.

Granted, these aren't the most aggressive creatures which makes me question their inclusion in a Zoo deck (a fast one at that), but a 2/3 Loam Lion doesn't do much for me either.

Total noob question.

Why Chain Lightning instead of Lightning Bolt? Does anyone really copy it again if their opponent copies it?

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@octopusman - He has Lightning Bolt.

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:-| omg I'm sorry. Didn't look closely enough. >_<

@octopusman - He has Lightning Bolt.

Yeah, Sylvan Library might be able to be dropped for something different. Probably Jitte or extra burn? Jitte is pretty good imo, as it kinda wins games. I'd think Fireblast if you don't have it could be good with KotR. Maybe a Grunt? I ran two on the day I couldnt find my Libraries and it was randomly really awesome vs the Lands deck I got paired up against haha. I basically lucksacked and recycled them to eachother with the help of some fetches.

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Originally Posted by chokin

@octopusman - He has Lightning Bolt.

Yeah, Sylvan Library might be able to be dropped for something different. Probably Jitte or extra burn? Jitte is pretty good imo, as it kinda wins games. I'd think Fireblast if you don't have it could be good with KotR. Maybe a Grunt? I ran two on the day I couldnt find my Libraries and it was randomly really awesome vs the Lands deck I got paired up against haha. I basically lucksacked and recycled them to eachother with the help of some fetches.

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It's been like 6 months since I played Zoo, but I remember hating Jitte (main board). It just seemed way too slow. My mana was always tied up playing dudes and bolts etc. I never tried Sylvans but Fireblast was sweet, and I didn't even have KotR. It was my best finisher because I didn't have PoP either. I wouldn't run Grunt because it is really bad with Goyf. I don't think Zoo needs MB graveyard hate. It already has a fighting chance against Lands, Reanimator, and Dredge.

I am very happy winner of a 22 player tournament. Went 5-0 with Zoo, 2nd best place was 3-2.
Below the build I played anticpiated a lot of U-wizards and Tempo decks alongside Dredge (which is most played deck in Germany besides Bant in all forms). I had one Burning Tree Shaman for test purposes maindeck but actually he got countered or destroyed as soon as he showed up and before he even could get active. So maybe this means he is good ;)

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ALA] Mountain (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
4 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Savannah
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [BRB] Plains (2)

// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [9E] Kird Ape
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
1 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
2 [VI] Fireblast
4 [BD] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [EX] Price of Progress
2 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [GTW] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [R] Red Elemental Blast

Brief tournament report.

Game 1: Aggro Loam
Match 1: I roll over him before he can stabilize. Quite close.
Match 2: I make a mistake and board out Teegs for Shusher. He has everything he needs: Loam, Wasteland, DD, CotV to lock me out of the game
Match 3: I board properly and land Teeg T2. He is lacking RR for DD, so he is at 7 life quickly after I can remove 2 Goyf with block/burn. Then a huge Terravore hits the board. Lucky me I rip the only Relic I boarded from the top. Terravore dies and on my next turn I win.

Game 2: Combo Elves
Match 1: He takes Mulligan on 6. Every creatures he play dies in flames or exile and Ape + Nacatl attack for the win.
Match 2: He mulligans to 5 while I keep a risky hand with just one Taiga and 3 spells needing W. Well, I have a much too slow start since I am color screwed and the game drags one and one until he draws his 2nd Mirror Entity with enough mana on the table and support from 2 Absolute Laws Enchantments
Match 3: Works like it should. Burn his guys, win with my own creatures.

Game 3: Bant Control
Match 1: I keep a rather land flooded hand because I think he is playing New Horizon. It turns out he plays CBT T3. I draw 4 more lands in a row and finally get beats from 2 Goyfs.
Match 2: I board my complete U Hate. I start the game with Choke, Magus of the Moon, Teeg in my starting hand. All three guys come into play uncountered. I loose Magus later, because he already had a W basic but it was just to much hate so i could sneak through 1-3 damage each turn.
Match 3: I am stalled by a Rhino for 7 or 8 turns. So we exchange blows until I get a Lavamancer online (drawed no Burn, Path was manaleaked, he played no Daze :(, ) to remove his Rhino when he blocks. He finds quite a few StoPs and boarded Paths but no other creatures until he is at 6 LP and plays a Goyf. Well,a Lavamancer wins the game in the next 3 turns. Very interesting game with many swings in the one or the other direction.

Game 4: Elves Survival
Match 1: He mulligans to 5. I play T1, Nacatly, T2 Nacatl burn two or three blockers and win
Match 2: Basically the same except he only mulligans to 6.

Game 5: Goblins
Well, i feel lucky. I am paired against Tribal again
Match 1: He lands Lackey which I burn. He lands Piledriver which I burn and play a creature myself. I fill the board with more creatures while he tries to defend with Weridings and find a solution with Matron. In vain! Fireblast ends the game soon after.
Match 2: The game is over soon. It is almost a replay of match 1. It felt like slicing through fresh cake.

For I rarely play Zoo I was amazed by its consistency a raw brutal power. Further props to having enough time after most matches to scout around and watch other players / have a drink / have a snack.

^^
I've been testing around with three Shamans and do quite like them. In a couple of weeks there's some back to back Legacy events that I plan on entering to find out if he is the real deal or not. I'll keep notes for reports, but I do have a question or two:

Did you ever feel Loam Lions would have been better for Apes due to BEB/Hydroblast?

Did you ever find your PoP to be dead cards?

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

There we go, fixed.

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He runs Knight of the Reliquary, seems more like a Zoo list with a slightly heavier burn focus. Certainly wouldn't call it sligh.

Ran Matt Elias's build yesterday at a GPT. I played against Belcher, Enchantress and Stax the first three rounds. Bad beats...

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Originally Posted by Nessaja

He runs Knight of the Reliquary, seems more like a Zoo list with a slightly heavier burn focus. Certainly wouldn't call it sligh.

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I would run 7/7s for 3 in any deck, but that's just me. And my opinion is also that it is Sligh. Steppe Lynx+Fireblast aren't Zoo cards in my opinion. I would rather not argue about it, because noone can change my view on this, so noone waste their finger muscles typing up a response.

Edit: Also, PoP maindeck. Lolz.

This is the Zoo(Dunkle's design) list that is winning online, has the most placings for Zoo and has been piloted by a few people in a meta that is mainly Landstills,DnT,Gobs and Countertop(Gobs and DnT have been on a decline past week or 2)

4Arid Mesa
4Plateau
4Taiga
4Windswept Heath
3Wooded Foothills
19 Lands
4Goblin Guide
3Grim Lavamancer
4Kird Ape
4Qasali Pridemage
4Tarmogoyf
4Wild Nacatl
23 Creatures
4Chain Lightning
3Fireblast
4Lightning Bolt
4Path to Exile
3Price of Progress
18 Spells
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Call it what you will, laugh at the PoPs main deck, but it wins and often and at a better % than Big Zoo,Non Sligh Zoo, Just Zoo etc. PoP is fukin crazy online, Landstill pilots fear it-go ahead play 2 Mishras and some duals-.

Edit: @Loxodon- What does REB/Pyro do vs Sphinx?

Did anybody see the SCG 5k coverage? Several zoo decks in the top 16, and zoo made it to the finals.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=33306

Also very similar to the other SCG winner:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=33233

So many lists are running lynxes, fireblast, Teeg, and price in their main, with low(or no) numbers of jitte and/or sylvan library. That seems to be against what a lot of the people here are suggesting, so I was curious if anybody had thoughts on this matter. Is a more aggressive route the way to go now? I've been out of the legacy scene for quite awhile, so I couldn't say for certain what should be played right now.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Call it what you will, laugh at the PoPs main deck, but it wins and often and at a better % than Big Zoo,Non Sligh Zoo, Just Zoo etc. PoP is fukin crazy online, Landstill pilots fear it-go ahead play 2 Mishras and some duals-.

Edit: @Loxodon- What does REB/Pyro do vs Sphinx?

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I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:

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lol, wasnt picking an argument and i would agree on the Sligh monicker as well. The format is certainly speeding up, feel the same way too, but i dont feel Zoo is in any danger of losing its place in paper at all. Where online it had to change to be faster than the mirror,Landstill and DnT(Sligh versions are harder to deal with for Taxes). Eventually the meta will shift again to Zoo's favor and hopefully more players join so we can fire Premier events with like 50+.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

I am not doubting the potency of PoP. I run it as a 3of in my Sideboard. I just don't like the way the deck is going, or the format for that matter. Everything is becoming like SO MUCH FASTER in such a short amount of time. It's pretty damn bad when the Control decks can't handle the combo decks.

I am not making fun of people for running Lynx/Fireblast at all. It's just sad that this deck has to speed up even more. I hate running inconsistent cards, and I'm sorry but those cards are inconsistent, and I'm fairly certain that almost everyone will agree with me here, for once.

It does absolutely nothing. Even the Zoo-ru has his mindfarts :frown:

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How is FB inconsistent? Just curious, not picking an arguement along with everyone else lol

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Originally Posted by jandax

^^
I've been testing around with three Shamans and do quite like them. In a couple of weeks there's some back to back Legacy events that I plan on entering to find out if he is the real deal or not. I'll keep notes for reports, but I do have a question or two:

Did you ever feel Loam Lions would have been better for Apes due to BEB/Hydroblast?

Did you ever find your PoP to be dead cards?

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I chose Apes over Lions to not rely even more on W ( I feared Tempo too much in my meta). Especially with Fireblast main it is better to focus on red. BEB/Hydroblast didn't hit me once. PoP unfortunately didn't show up in the only two matchups it mattered (bant, loam). I cannot remember it showed up against the tribal matchups as well, so at least this was OK. I like it main because either it is clearly amazing and otherwise it is clearly the first card to be easily boarded. I expected a lot of Bant and decks playing duals so the choice was not to play it in the Sb but maindeck. However I was very pleased with Gaddock the whole tournament. It was great against Loam and Bant and otherwise can go into the red zone G1.