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I like that going UW allows us to greatly mitigate the negative effects of Wasteland. Being able to play basics on the first 3-4 turns will keep us in games we other may get blown out on. Hitting basic WW seems tough to hit consistently by turn 4, no?
I mentioned that but if you are playing straight uw, it shouldn't be any kind of real problem. I am playing Esper and that makes it a bit more difficult for me as turn 1 discard or drs is my best option.
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I'm in favour of the UW list. I've dropped black from the list completely since lingering souls isn't much of a thing and the rise of death and taxes has increased the presence of -1/-1 hate to white and discard does very little to improve any match ups. The temptation of adding deathrite shaman for his sheer utility is too great, and means splashing 2 green duals to produce the ugliest Mana base in Legacy.
I much rather prefer a rock solid Mana base given the presence of wasteland and bloodmoon. It also serves to create a more consistent stoneblade.
I'm on the 3 Jace plan, but 4 seems reasonable if you've dropped black. Im of the opinion that True-name supports the jace plan by having an unkillable wall.
Stone blade has 3 powerful plays.
1) stoneforge, batterskull
2) Jace
3) True-Name Nemesis.
It makes sense that the rest of the deck support pushing these powerful plays.
I think if you want to play Jace, you should be running a bant list. It's a strong idea. I'd drop Strix out of my Esper list for Goyf, replace lands accordingly and probably switch DRS for Noble Hierarch, or at least a combination. Drop the Thoughtseize and that's where the Jaces would go. I know that you guys want to play Azorius, but is that really strong enough? I mean, it's not bad and obviously it's doing at least okay (2 great finishes out of nowhere), but is it the strongest iteration of the build? I think 3-color is peak performance. I micro-splashed for green for my DRS ability activation, but the list is esper, and I don't think I would be satisfied otherwise. I don't think 2 colors gives enough roundness to the build for it to fully blossom and respond to the demands of the metagame.
-ABC
If UW Blade becomes a thing again, this deck looks pretty weak to Massacre. Thoughts?
Well, it is a bit, but can't have it all. You run Counters, or if you are me, Counters and discard, so I'm not too concerned about it. You win fast after you land the Nemesis, so protecting it for a few turns isn't too difficult, at least on paper...I don't see it to be that big of a deal. It sucks, but I think that is one we just have to see coming/be ready for.
-ABC
EDIT: Also, I'm playing 2 Meddling Mage in my sideboard. I think that will help as there's only a few playable cards that will be used to take care of TNN: Massacre, Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution.
So I've been playing around with the following UW build utlizing Mother of Runes for the last few weeks on cockatrice / modo / at my lgs, and I have to say I'm rather enjoying it. I have a feeling this has been tried and found unsuccessful / less than optimal in the past, but I wanted to give it a shot. My reasoning was as follows: I like the idea of running Stoneblade without black as I always felt like that was the weakest aspect of the deck (my feeling is in esper, you have the white to pressure, the blue to dig and counter, and the black mainly for targeted discard -- the latter I find he least useful, as your opponent can always topdeck their way back into the game). It also makes the mana less consistent -- this way I don't have to worry about whether to get a swamp or an underground sea against an unknown opponent t1. Without it, however, your options for one drops become a little less exciting. The other problem I'd been having was that (specifically in my meta), Stoneforge is notoriously difficult to protect (meta is a lot of Shardless, D&T, Miracles, Jund, RUG Delver.) I'd say more than half the time when I activate her she ends up getting destroyed and I'm left with an uncastable batterskull in hand. With mom, however, you have a good t1 threat that your opponent often feels the need to deal with immediately. If they do, they're less likely to have removal for the subsequent Stoneforge / Germ. If they don't, even better. It's also a little bit more food for an opponent's Liliana to have to deal with. Anyway, please critique, would love to know if people think it's potentially good / rubbish.
(Mom Blade)
Creatures (13)
3 x Mother of Runes
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
3 x True Name Nemesis
2 x Snapcaster Mage
1 x Vendilion Clique
Instants / Sorceries (18)
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Force of Will
1 x Spell Pierce
1 x Spell Snare
1 x Counterspell
1 x Supreme Verdict
2 x Ponder
Other (6)
3 x Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 x Batterskull
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Detention Sphere
Lands (23)
2 x Island
2 x Plains
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Polluted Delta
2 x Marsh Flats
1 x Karakas
4 x Tundra
4 x Mishra's Factory
1 x Academy Ruins
Sideboard (15)
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Meddling Mage
3 x Rest in Peace
1 x Path to Exile
1 x Supreme Verdict
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Swan Song
1 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress (a concession to TNN at the moment, when it's useful it's very useful but I'm not certain it's worth keeping)
1 x Vendilion Clique
The risk is that the entrance of TNN into the format makes sweepers more valuable (and Toxic Deluge being another promising one), and your Moms are just as vulnerable to those. Plus, your shock troops here, TNN, doesn't need Mom for protection. Your other creatures all give you value whether or not they eat removal.
As you build experience with the deck and the format, you'll become better at choosing what to tutor for. It's not always going to be Batterskull, because many times you're playing a deck with a high likelihood of having removal for the Stoneforge, stranding your living weapon in your hand for at least 3 more turns.
With TNN, I feel you can much more confidently fetch a sword or a Jitte and go to town (except perhaps against Abrupt Decay-based decks). Losing your turn 1 Ponders, or fetching a basic Plains to cast Mom and losing a turn 2 Brainstorm/Fetch can be the marginal costs that more than compensate for the occasional Mom into SFM plays.
Furthermore, with a relatively low creature count (again, 3 of which don't need Mom), I suspect you'll more often find yourself curving a T1 Mom into nothing useful.
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Okay, I have to ask. Why are the majority of lists I've seen running jaces over drs? Jace does literally NOTHING to further the TNN game plan, and in all honesty is a 4-cc brainstorm a large majority of the time. It also just dies to opposing TNN and creatures that have been "mommed" (D&T). I dunno. I just don't see where you are coming from. Help me out and give me some solid reasons why it's being insisted on being played. Yes, it's Jace. Other reasons, good ones.
-ABC
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TNN is not your game plan, you are not a TNN deck, you are a stoneforge deck. TNN is just a card in your deck. TNN wins games, jace wins games. They are both pars of a bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
If you want to run DRS, then by all means go ahead as there is nothing wrong with running esper death blade, but cutting them for jace is just bad. If you are running it out there just to die that just seems like you aren't playing optimally and nothing to do with jace.
I don't think just playing Jace and not Deathrite or Deathrite but not Jace is necessarily wrong. I think it comes down to play style mostly (and meta since some cards will be better than others in certain kinds of metas). Those who want to play the more controlling Blade lists will want to have 2 Jaces at minimum. Esper Deathblade is more of a midrange take on Stoneblade and thus was more aggressive than traditional Stoneblade even before TNN. As a midrange deck it makes sense for it to want Deathrite Shaman over Jace and now TNN over Jace as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I disagree with this. If you're facing a blue-based tempo deck, they most certainly will have more countermagic than we will at any given moment due to (a.) they just run more maindeck than we do and (b.) they run 4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder to find their countermagic whereas we run 4 Brainstorm + 0 Ponder. I'm not sure why you believe that blue-based tempo decks will not have a countermagic than us by the time we're able to cast a 3cc spell in Deluge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Also, why is Deluge "better" against Shroud and Hexproof creatures? I'm pretty sure Verdict deals quite nicely with Geist and Mongoose too.
Against aggro, paying 2-4 Deluge life is relevant, even moreso if the aggro deck is playing countermagic (Merfolk). I think the life loss from Deluge vs. the extra turn of combat damage you'll potentially eat with a 4cc Verdict is a close wash.
I went back to Stoneblade yesterday after playing deathblade for a while and not being happy with it. This is the list I ran:
Creatures
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar-Pit
SIDEBOARD
2 Meddling Mage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Detention Sphere
2 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique
NOTES:
I could only get a hold of 2 True Name Nemesis. I think I'd like to play 3 ideally
I don't have any Thoughtseize at the moment, else I'd run them over the inquisitions
Similarly, I don't have any Karakas, which I replaced with Tar Pit
I'd also like to run flusterstorms in the board, possibly instead of Duress given how much people are playing leyline of sanctity.
Overall, I was very happy with the deck (a million times better than deathblade). Unfortunately I had 2 bad matchups in a row after winning round 1, which put me out of contention. A few thoughts in no particular order:
1. True Name Nemesis is amazing. More interestingly than that, however, was my game 2 against a Bant deck (Maverick + Blue). I had a TNN and a sword down, which forced my opponent to play everything he had. I then played supreme verdict, leaving him on topdeck mode, and me with a full hand.
2. Jace is so much better here than in Deathblade. TNN + Strix make Jace so good. I'm thinking going with 3 is the way to go.
3. Not having graveyard dependencies other than Snapcaster is great, Rest in Peace hoses so many decks.
4. I also have quite a few answers to opponent's TNNs, though I haven't had the chance to play against them yet.
The bad side is that after beating Bant, I was paired against 12post, which is probably the worst matchup in the world, and after that Affinity, which can be harsh (and it was).
Nevertheless, I'm coming up to a pretty big legacy tournament this saturday, so hopefully I'll be able to provide a better report. I'll also be borrowing flusterstorms, etc. for that.
43
Had a small playtesting session yesterday against Jund, Merfolk and Reanimator. Definitely had some interesting games and boardstates and was happy at how versatile the deck was against grindy mid-range, tempo aggro-control and combo. In the TNN games against Merfolk, I always felt ahead due to my SFM + Equipment package (helps I maindeck SoFaI), and I think I only dropped 1 game to Merfolk after he equipped his TNN with Jitte. Here's my list (essentially SCG Dallas winner list -1 Celestial Flare, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor and +1 Spell Snare, +1 Spell Pierce):
Maindeck:
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
Sideboard:
1 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Detention Sphere
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Spell Pierce
2 Swan Song
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
I have been testing good old fashion u/w stoneblade. Testing has given me the following list and board plans.
Main
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island (for ee at 3 and possible wear//tear over disenchant in side)
4 Mishra's Factory
Sideboard:
3 RIP
1 true name
1 Disenchant
2 pithing needle
1 supreme verdict
2 swan song
1 meddling mage
1 e canonist
1 venser
2 EE
vs miracles
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 venser
+ 2 p needle
+ 2 swansong
+ 2 EE
- 2 Force
- 4 Stp
- 1 verdict
- 1 jitte
vs jund
+ 3 RIP
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
- 4 Force
- 1 cspell
vs maverick
+ 2 EE
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 disenchant
- 4 Force of will
- 1 dsphere
vs show and tell
+ 2 swan song
+ 2 needle
+ 1 cannonist
+ 1 meddling mage (show and tell)
+ 1 venser
+ 1 disenchant
- 1 elspeth
- 1 true name
-1 jitte
- 4 stps
- 1 verdict
vs bug
+ 2 Rip
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 Venser
- 4 Force
- 1 dsphere
vs rug tempo
+ 3 Rip
+ 2 EE
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 TNN
- 4 force
- 1 jace
- 1 dsphere
- cspell
vs uwr temp
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 venser
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
- 4 Force
vs elves
+ 2 EE
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 cannonist
+ 1 venser
- 1 bskull
- 3 Jace
- 1 elspeth
vs dnt
+ 2 EE
+ 2 needle
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 venser
- 1 verdict
- 4 force ( on play// on draw - 3 pierce -1 force)
- 1 cspell
- 1 Jace
vs storm
- 4 stp
- 1 verdict
- 2 tnn
- 1 jitte
- 1 elspeth
+ 2 swan song
+ 1 ethersworn
+ 1 Mage
+ 2 ee
+ 2 rip
+ 1 Venser
vs fish
+ 2 EE
+ 2 needle
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 venser
+ 1 verdict
- 4 force
- 1 cspell
- 1 elspeth
- 2 clique
vs goblins
+ 2 EE
+ 2 needle
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
+ 1 meddling mage
- 4 Force
- 3 pierce
-1 cspell
vs aggro loam
+ 1 disenchant
+ 2 EE
+ 1 venser
+ 3 RiP
- 1 verdict
- 1 dsphere
- 2 snap
- 1 elspeth
- 1 jitte
- 1 jace
vs. mirror match-up
+ 1 disenchant
+ 1 venser
+ 1 TNN
+ 1 verdict
- 4 Force
Picked up StoneBlade after a 6 month break playing miracles. I just love the plays you get to do and the fast games you can win instead of the never ending grind with top.
I feel that there are some issues still with the deck that I want to test out (elspeth & more anticreature removal in board) but otherwise I am pretty happy with my 75.
Last night I played against hypergenesis, goblins and nicfit and the deck felt really strong against all three matchups, especially when you get to tune it with the sideboard. After playing miracles you just have to grin your teeth and realize that some matchups are won g2 and g3.
I believe that if you play this deck with Deathrite Shaman you should move your posts to the DeathBlade-thread instead of cloggering up this thread with nonsense that Jace should be cut from the list etc. Last night I won games vs all three matchups because of jace, if I had a deathrite instead the games would not be won (deathrite cant bounce emrakul, cant draw 10 cards, cant find supreme verdict, cant fateseal opponent when he is on 0 cards in hand and almost infinite life). Jace does it all, no matter what deck you play against (except maybe elves and delver where I sideboard out 1-2 of him).
My list is a 3 TNN, 4 stoneforge, 2 snappy, 1 clique list with 3 equipments (sofi, skull, jitte) and two verdict on top of 4 jaces. The usual pierces and ponders and 22 lands. I run 5 basics instead of the extra fetch to make sure I get to play basics into TNN - no funny valuelands or mishras factory (no room in esper with our manabase). The usual 2/2 cut with inq and thoughtseize. The list feels strong but has been played before and I feel it is not really unique except for the lack of oneoffs. If you want to discuss sideboards thats fine but I feel they leave very little wiggleroom nowadays. 3 gy hate, 3 meddling mage, 2 fluster, explosives and some oneoffs that is metadependant. One of the best cards still as creature removal is the Zealous Persecution that I run as a twooff. Last night I also realized how friggin good Meddling Mage is against so many decks. I had one naming Ringleader and one naming Chieftain against goblins and felt so safe even though he had caverns in play.
What cards are especially strong vs patriot? I feel I need a strong sideboard plan against that deck. How would you board with my 75?
You are welcome to your opinion but I must say that jace isn't the end-all God of blue. He is good, but he isn't an auto-include. It is okay, check that, smart to question every card choice, and while DRS doesn't easily allow Jace to be played, that doesn't mean you should simply dismiss him as an option. Your scenarios you posted prove nothing. DRS builds are quite different to the extreme tempo - screw builds like the common build on this thread, yes, but they aren't hugely different in goals or play style. I think you should try them. Just remember to be more aggressive than you normally would be playing your normal build.
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Stoneblade is not a "tempo-screw" deck. That would be RUG and UWR Delver.
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I'm sorry man, you're wrong. This deck is called bladeCONTROL for a reason. This is not a deck where you pack 4 wasteland and 4 deathrite shaman and skip jace, thats another thread and deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Now let's move on to more important things. What is the correct sideboard against patriot? Do you keep forces against a non-stifle build? Me and my buddies when we played miracles boarded out entreat and a jace to get less clunky, but then we find ourselves in topdeck mode craving for a wincon. Which cards would you get rid off? Discard looses its value in lategame but is great at picking jace from hand etc.
Second question, 4 thoughtseize or the 2/2 split? I kinda feel that the cards I want to really take often costs more than 3 (jace, batterskull, natural order, ringleader)
FoW should be kept in as one of the few answers to their NemesEs (correct plural?). SoFI should be in your 75 also in the wake of TNN. Boarding out some Jaces is fine, though I'd try to keep in at least 1. Zealous Persecution should be a 2-of, obv. both should be brought in. Thoughtseize is indeed a good candidate to board out, since the life loss will matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL
I strongly recommend going with the full set of Thoughtseize. Jitte/Batterskull should make up for the life loss in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by useL